Are there signs of cracks in the Cambridge AWT training ranks?

[curious]

Other notable signals from a number of trainers to. I think Tony Pike had one at the AW trials and something like 8 a week later at Matamata. Wasn't he a strong advocate for the AWT?

[curious]

4 minutes ago, curious said:

Other notable signals from a number of trainers too. I think Tony Pike had one at the AW trials and something like 8 a week later at Matamata. Wasn't he a strong advocate for the AWT?

 

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, curious said:

Other notable signals from a number of trainers to. I think Tony Pike had one at the AW trials and something like 8 a week later at Matamata. Wasn't he a strong advocate for the AWT?

Well Pike might be a bit gun shy now after Khufu went amiss.  Although I don't what happened to that horse - does anyone know?  It may have been the hard track at Ellerslie rather than the trial outing that caused a problem.

[curious]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I heard a story from up Cambridge way.  Not sure if it is true or not but a Dad and his toddler were standing on the new AWT.  Dad was talking to someone and as toddler's do they got a bit bored.  The toddler started digging and pushing the polyfill round - "Daddy look look - I've found a road!"  Only had to go down a few inches.  Perhaps they haven't put enough on it or it hasn't been compacted?

 

Maybe they forgot to put the 7" compacted layer on and just put the loose fill on top of the road?

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, curious said:

Maybe they forgot to put the 7" compacted layer on and just put the loose fill on top of the road?

Who knows.  I know it is hard to get a line on a trial track due to the unknowns about the horses but the times on the AWT looked all over the place.  Did you look at them Curious?

[curious]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Who knows.  I know it is hard to get a line on a trial track due to the unknowns about the horses but the times on the AWT looked all over the place.  Did you look at them Curious?

Yes. I agree.

[Nerina 2]

In the final analysis if meetings are cancelled on a regular basis as in the past at least racing will continue on the AW track.As in heavy winter conditions same horses will handle the Polytrack and others won’t. I would imagine with proper work with the designed ripper machine and someone picking up the manure ,it will be better than no racing.The guy picking up the manure may suit an old pensioner like me.!No organic matter allowed,but on reflection my back not up to it.!

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Nerina 2 said:

In the final analysis if meetings are cancelled on a regular basis as in the past at least racing will continue on the AW track.As in heavy winter conditions same horses will handle the Polytrack and others won’t. I would imagine with proper work with the designed ripper machine and someone picking up the manure ,it will be better than no racing.The guy picking up the manure may suit an old pensioner like me.!No organic matter allowed,but on reflection my back not up to it.!

The meetings cancelled "on a regular basis" is a bit of a myth promoted by racing administrators.  It was never ever as bad as the spin said it was.  

[Nerina 2]

Yes remember some wonderful winter track performers.

Anyhow was one or anything by the sire Instinct.

Van der Hum from Matangi not too bad either

 

[nomates]

14 minutes ago, Nerina 2 said:

In the final analysis if meetings are cancelled on a regular basis as in the past at least racing will continue on the AW track.As in heavy winter conditions same horses will handle the Polytrack and others won’t. I would imagine with proper work with the designed ripper machine and someone picking up the manure ,it will be better than no racing.The guy picking up the manure may suit an old pensioner like me.!No organic matter allowed,but on reflection my back not up to it.!

Here in lies the biggest misnomer , the winter horses are wet track horses for a reason , can't go fast enough on a good track . So when a grass track meeting is xfered to A/W how many of those slow horses are going to front up on what will essentially be a dead track , very few . Maybe some will try in the first instance but will soon find out they go too quick for their horse , won't make that mistake again .

We have a very small pool of horses in NZ , certainly not big enough to supply horses for 3 A/W's in 3 distinct districts . The northern district couldn't supply enough horses for night racing at Avondale when the gloss went off it .

The loss of some race meetings never required the industry to invest $15 mil to cover supposed losses from those meetings . And the $15mil is over and above the PGF money . So the industry goes deeper in debt when it can least afford to .

Ah i have a solution , let's close and sell some of those ratty shitty little tracks around NZ that are sucking the industry dry .

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, nomates said:

So when a grass track meeting is xfered to A/W

The reality is that there will still be grass track meeting cancellations and no last minute transfers.  Jumps racing will suffer because of the AWT's as well.  Some might think that is a good thing but it will end the career (and life?) of some gallopers.

[Huey]

34 minutes ago, nomates said:

Here in lies the biggest misnomer , the winter horses are wet track horses for a reason , can't go fast enough on a good track . So when a grass track meeting is xfered to A/W how many of those slow horses are going to front up on what will essentially be a dead track , very few . Maybe some will try in the first instance but will soon find out they go too quick for their horse , won't make that mistake again .

We have a very small pool of horses in NZ , certainly not big enough to supply horses for 3 A/W's in 3 distinct districts . The northern district couldn't supply enough horses for night racing at Avondale when the gloss went off it .

The loss of some race meetings never required the industry to invest $15 mil to cover supposed losses from those meetings . And the $15mil is over and above the PGF money . So the industry goes deeper in debt when it can least afford to .

Ah i have a solution , let's close and sell some of those ratty shitty little tracks around NZ that are sucking the industry dry .

Yep it will be a shambles, with meetings moved the scratchings will be huge, some trainers will take a punt on putting horses into races on the premise the meeting might be moved , then when its moved the others will scratch that are winter horses , so small field sizes etc. 

Once again when you have no idea how the industry works or do any sort of empirical analysis this is what you will get.

Its a big concern i trainers have no faith in them to train on , thats one of the main reasons for having them isn't it.

This is why you don't print stuff like this after the track has been open 10 mins

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/racing-new-cambridge-track-proves-popular/DHP6OS32IKZAKUAQUK5MNTJ7QU/

[Chief Stipe]

New Zealand's first ever trial meeting on a synthetic track tomorrow is set to confirm just how popular the new Cambridge surface has become.

There will be 13 trials heats on the new track which has been installed at the Cambridge thoroughbred training centre and has already become a regular part of the regime for many trainers there.

Leading trainers Tony Pike and Andrew Forsman estimate over half the horses who work at Cambridge each morning now work on the synthetic track.

"It has become very popular very quickly," says Pike, head of the NZ Trainer's Association.
"The horses like it and it provides a consistent surface all day.

 

"Initially a few trainers were cautious and let other go out and use it for gallops first but now everybody seems to love it." The full benefit of the synthetic surface probably won't be felt until the autumn when the plough and grass tracks at Cambridge get drenched but the quick acceptance of the new surface can only be positive, especially as they don't come cheap.

"The horses already like it even though at the moment we have some other good surfaces to gallop on," says Forsman.

"But when it gets wet that is when we will see the real benefit of it."There have been organised jumpouts on the synthetic track every Friday this month but that steps up a level today with the 13 heats including group one horses like Sacred Elixir and even juveniles from Te Akau trucked across from Matamata.

The first race meeting on the new surface isn't scheduled until May and one of the points of interest out of today's trials will be whether the track clearly favours front runners, which some synthetic tracks can purely because of their smaller size.

Today is only one trials meeting and will be by no means a definitive guide and Pike says he doesn't see that being the case.

"I am not sure it will be a jump and run track," offers Pike.

"So far in the jump outs I have seen the horses seem to get their chance to improve as there is a bit of a false straight before the last bend.

"Overall I think the response has only been popular here and eventually I think we will see more trainers coming from other tracks to trial on it firstly because the surface is consistent and secondly because eventually they may end up racing on it."

 

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Huey said:

Yep it will be a shambles, with meetings moved the scratchings will be huge, some trainers will take a punt on putting horses into races on the premise the meeting might be moved , then when its moved the others will scratch that are winter horses , so small field sizes etc. 

Once again when you have no idea how the industry works or do any sort of empirical analysis this is what you will get.

Its a big concern i trainers have no faith in them to train on , thats one of the main reasons for having them isn't it.

This is why you don't print stuff like this after the track has been open 10 mins

Yep bit premature to say some of that stuff. 

The more recent facts don't seem to back up what Pike said.  He had 1 horse go round at Cambridge on the AWT and then a week later had 8 go round at Matamata!

Baker/Forsman went from Zero Cambridge to 14 Matamata!

[nomates]

6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yep bit premature to say some of that stuff. 

The more recent facts don't seem to back up what Pike said.  He had 1 horse go round at Cambridge on the AWT and then a week later had 8 go round at Matamata!

Baker/Forsman went from Zero Cambridge to 14 Matamata!

They said what they had to say to get their premier training track , nothing more nothing less . Complete and utter self interest . The other A/W's are being build with the same promotion from local trainers . At the end of the day it ain't their moola paying for the construction or maintenance , and no comeback on them if they aren't the golden goose for the industry that everyone is saying the are going to be .

[nomates]

12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yep bit premature to say some of that stuff. 

The more recent facts don't seem to back up what Pike said.  He had 1 horse go round at Cambridge on the AWT and then a week later had 8 go round at Matamata!

Baker/Forsman went from Zero Cambridge to 14 Matamata!

I wonder if any questions were asked around those numbers , from Cambridge or NZTR . I'm sure they will have a ready answer , they weren't ready for Cambridge of course .

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, nomates said:

They said what they had to say to get their premier training track , nothing more nothing less . Complete and utter self interest . The other A/W's are being build with the same promotion from local trainers . At the end of the day it ain't their moola paying for the construction or maintenance , and no comeback on them if they aren't the golden goose for the industry that everyone is saying the are going to be .

Yep and they'll bail and start pointing the finger elsewhere when it doesn't work out.  Meanwhile they've raped and pillaged other clubs of their assets.

[Chief Stipe]

Just had a thought about the rating of the AWT for the trials.  It seems with these Polytracks that they don't do ratings.  There is no indication of the track condition for each of the official trial day's run at Cambridge.  The assumption is that the going is the same every raceday.  Now that raises some questions:

1. What is the Going rating in comparison to a turf track?  Is it a G3 or a G2?  Surely a penetrometer reading would give trainers and punters a comparison.
2. The Polytrack is subject to weather conditions that can affect the surface.  Are we to believe that the surface on a rainy day (the wax hardens) is the same rating as on a hot summer day (the wax melts)?
3. Grooming of the track can affect the top layer compaction which must affect the rating.  Given the grooming is a mechanical operation being done by staff it is subject to operational variance i.e. depending on who is doing the grooming and the state of the machinery the track rating may change.  How is this "grooming" quality assured?  Surely measurements are taken.

Has anyone seen any penetrometer (or similar compression tool) tests done on the Cambridge AWT?  If they have been done how do they compare to the turf rating system?  

 

[nomates]

There can't be any comparison between an A/W and a grass track , it is like comparing the earth to the moon . Just like a heavy in Sydney can't be compared to a H11+ at Trentham . There will be horses that are competitive on one but not the other , Trentham heavy is a form line all on it's own .

And because they can't be compared is the reason there will be few horses that will be competitive on both surfaces .

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, nomates said:

There can't be any comparison between an A/W and a grass track , it is like comparing the earth to the moon

I disagree.  If you can't rate/measure the surface and compare it to other surfaces then how do you know what the potential impact is on horse health and safety let alone performance?

How do you know that the Cambridge track was laid to the correct specifications and is behaving as per specification unless you measure it? Will the Riccarton one behave differently to the Cambridge one?  Can you alter the surface hardness by doing the grooming differently, less or more regularly or consistently across the entire course?  Surely "hardness" can be measured?  Actually it MUST be measured from a health and safety perspective.

[Chief Stipe]

You may laugh Thomarse but I'm sure we can expect to see a erudite and cogent post from you on the subject.

If 10 inches of the top track surface is composed of the Poly-fill with the bottom 7 inches being compacted and the top 3 inches being "groomed" then logic would suggest that there is potential for some degree of variation in overall track hardness.  

[Joe Bloggs]

Ask Saundry, he's an expert on the VIC tracks, he'll explain in full the difference between the Geelong, Pakenham and Ballarat tracks, why Geelong collapsed and no one would go, why the Solicitors love Pakenham and used to love Geelong, and why the Rat is the ants pants........he wont tell you why Toowoomba uprooted there's though, no way, but Bernie is a know all, although, accolades to him for asking do you gallop everyday, otherwise you'd have never known how far detached and clueless he really is........the Pro-ride at Randwick and W Farm are popular and even trialed on, but it will take a lot of pain before Petone learns a lesson and the Riccarton trainers are the crash test dummies....Cambridge results speak for themselves, the winners will be the vets.......bring on the respo bills for starters, just give it time.

[Chief Stipe]

The point is Joe we are told we are aspiring to be "the World Leader" in all things Thoroughbred Racing then why can't we lead the world in the rating of Polytracks for the benefit of Trainers and Punters?

Or is the truth that a Polytrack always rates a G2 when the target for a Turf track is D4 race morning improving to a G3?

[Joe Bloggs]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The point is Joe we are told we are aspiring to be "the World Leader" in all things Thoroughbred Racing then why can't we lead the world in the rating of Polytracks for the benefit of Trainers and Punters?

Or is the truth that a Polytrack always rates a G2 when the target for a Turf track is D4 race morning improving to a G3?

I see your point, it's a minefield Chief, I can't wait for the day they invent a reliable track reader, NZ invented the TAB and were the first to give women the vote.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

NZ invented the TAB and were the first to give women the vote.

Been downhill ever since!