Blood Doping?

[Portfolio]

I wonder if Sheriff had anything before his huge derby win in record time after torrid win? Be nice to think nothing, but last couple starts average

[Brodie]

15 hours ago, Newmarket said:

May look strange you running between peoples legs at local supermarket trying to work out sex. 

Generally I am a pretty good judge of human flesh whether they are male or female!

However more and more nowadays there can be a mixture of both so it is hard to tell which one they are!!

[Happy Sunrise]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

However more and more nowadays there can be a mixture of both so it is hard to tell which one they are!!

Since you are a good judge, maybe next time you go into the TAB you can crossdress so you can get that big bet on? You can pull out that big wad of bills out from your bra and hand it over...

No more restrictions for 'Miss Brodie' ?

[hunterthepunter]

6 hours ago, Portfolio said:

I wonder if Sheriff had anything before his huge derby win in record time after torrid win? Be nice to think nothing, but last couple starts average

sheriff would had nothing in him was very tired horse after derby win and nigel wonted to spell him but owners wonted to go to jewels

[OLDWHITEMAN]

3 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

sheriff would had nothing in him was very tired horse after derby win and nigel wonted to spell him but owners wonted to go to jewels

I can understand why the owners would do this. Personally, I think Sheriff is overrated and I do not see him figuring in the Cup etc because he is not, in my personal opinion of course, good enough.

[hunterthepunter]

4 hours ago, OLDWHITEMAN said:

I can understand why the owners would do this. Personally, I think Sheriff is overrated and I do not see him figuring in the Cup etc because he is not, in my personal opinion of course, good enough.

fastest 3year old ever over 2600 going 3.05 so your saying is a mug?? think you should get your hand off it wanking on about allstars

[Newmarket]

24 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

fastest 3year old ever over 2600 going 3.05 so your saying is a mug?? think you should get your hand off it wanking on about allstars

Thought same. Unreal run really, after that performance it should have been unbeatable after 

[Newmarket]

On 22/06/2018 at 12:20 AM, LongOwner said:

 

Other site took down above post, which is nothing unusual, as anything owner disagreed with was deleted quickly. 

Not sure why, it is on social media, so nothing secret. A guy called Lee seems to know a lot about it. He had stated 20-30 gallops & harness trainers are involved in process. As I’ve said before, if everything is all above board, why not name those using it? Then everyone can see results for themselves, might be more trainers interested, might be less interested, who knows. 

[Chief Stipe]

I find it odd that discussion on this topic elsewhere is being inhibited.  I haven't read anything on BOAY that needs to be deleted.

In my opinion this ACS treatment is interesting and crosses a few boundaries.

For example is it a good look to know that relatively large quantities of blood are regularly  being taken from horses,  treated and then reinjected?

The treatment itself has been widely used for over 15 years for treating human patients with muscle, tendon and ligament issues.

The active ingredient is a naturally occurring protein which is created by the body more so when there is an injury.

The process concentrates this protein which is then injected directly to where the injury is.  It has anti inflammatory properties.

[LongOwner]

1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

Other site took down above post, which is nothing unusual, as anything owner disagreed with was deleted quickly. 

Not sure why, it is on social media, so nothing secret. A guy called Lee seems to know a lot about it. He had stated 20-30 gallops & harness trainers are involved in process. As I’ve said before, if everything is all above board, why not name those using it? Then everyone can see results for themselves, might be more trainers interested, might be less interested, who knows. 

Read my reply to you on the other site .

All I am saying make it transparent- even HRNZ - do a full article on it - then everyone can know about it and use it so the start point is even !

if you stop using ear plugs , blinds, spreaders and other gear including saying horse treated if had a previous bad run and if on report then this should have a notification to stipes requirement if it is been used . Alsi, each time a horse races who uses the treatment has to state when the treatment was last done to each individual horse that races . Like notified gear change .

Then the punters know - the most important part of the racing industry.

Edited June 23, 2018 by LongOwner

[LongOwner]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I find it odd that discussion on this topic elsewhere is being inhibited.  I haven't read anything on BOAY that needs to be deleted.

In my opinion this ACS treatment is interesting and crosses a few boundaries.

For example is it a good look to know that relatively large quantities of blood are regularly  being taken from horses,  treated and then reinjected?

The treatment itself has been widely used for over 15 years for treating human patients with muscle, tendon and ligament issues.

The active ingredient is a naturally occurring protein which is created by the body more so when there is an injury.

The process concentrates this protein which is then injected directly to where the injury is.  It as anti inflammatory properties.

Same as a steroid - cortisone- injection which are not 100% clear with stand down periods etc .

Worth remembering Blue Magic mixture had NO illegal drugs in it and these were retrospectively added to the banded list .

[Brodie]

They say that 20 to 30 trainers, gallopers and harness use this system in NZ?

How many are gallopers and how many are harness?

I do know that the second leading trainers in the country do NOT use this method of blood improvement that clearly gives certain stables a helluva advantage, whether it is legal or not!

If the ones that are using this blood enhancement system that obviously costs a lot of money to use, would it be possible that there are other systems being used as well by the 20 to 30 trainers?

 

[Newmarket]

58 minutes ago, LongOwner said:

Read my reply to you on the other site .

All I am saying make it transparent- even HRNZ - do a full article on it - then everyone can know about it and use it so the start point is even !

if you stop using ear plugs , blinds, spreaders and other gear including saying horse treated if had a previous bad run and if on report then this should have a notification to stipes requirement if it is been used . Alsi, each time a horse races who uses the treatment has to state when the treatment was last done to each individual horse that races . Like notified gear change .

Then the punters know - the most important part of the racing industry.

100% agree with you. That’s what I stated earlier, trainers use when the moneys up, don’t when not. Gives the punter no confidence at all. 

[Newmarket]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I find it odd that discussion on this topic elsewhere is being inhibited.  I haven't read anything on BOAY that needs to be deleted.

In my opinion this ACS treatment is interesting and crosses a few boundaries.

For example is it a good look to know that relatively large quantities of blood are regularly  being taken from horses,  treated and then reinjected?

The treatment itself has been widely used for over 15 years for treating human patients with muscle, tendon and ligament issues.

The active ingredient is a naturally occurring protein which is created by the body more so when there is an injury.

The process concentrates this protein which is then injected directly to where the injury is.  It has anti inflammatory properties.

Chief, not surprising that thread was pulled down from elsewhere, he probably got the call from the doctor to take it down! 

Main reason I think this site will really go forward, as posts are not altered or deleted here. Good one,

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Chief, not surprising that thread was pulled down from elsewhere, he probably got the call from the doctor to take it down! 

Main reason I think this site will really go forward, as posts are not altered or deleted here. Good one,

Thanks Newmarket.  Rest assured if someone oversteps the mark we will deal with it.  I didn't know anything about ACS until this thread was started.  As I said it raises some questions - moral and ethical.  It's not illegal but is it a good look?  Does the reported therapeutic benefit outweigh everything else?

Maybe I'm old fashioned by the visual image of Trainers taking blood from their horses, shipping it off in ice boxes to be processed and then getting it back to inject into their horses doesn't seem a nice one.  But again if the therapeutic benefit is as it is reported then maybe it is in the best interests of the horses.

[Kakama]

21 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

sheriff would had nothing in him was very tired horse after derby win and nigel wonted to spell him but owners wonted to go to jewels

Funny you say that....been looking at other forums on this subject....several have stated that a horse can get very tired, nearly exhausted after a gut buster run! 

RIU should be all over this, sport is in decline as it is, everyone needs clearer information what's going on....punters, owners + trainers ....

[Chief Stipe]

This article suggests ACS doen't actually work:

Autologous Conditioned Serum Composition Evaluated

This treatment uses the horse’s blood to generate serum enriched with growth factors and anti-inflammatory mediators.

By Nancy S. Loving, DVM    |    Jun 15, 2016    |    AAEP Convention, AAEP Convention 2015, Arthritis & Degenerative Joint Disease, Article, Muscle and Joint Problems, Musculoskeletal System, Regenerative Medicine, Veterinary Practice

High-dose tiludronate resulted in only transient and mild changes in a few joint and cartilage health parameters. 

Photo: Alexandra Beckstett

Joint disease: It’s progressive, incurable, and widely prevalent among performance horses. Veterinarians can, however, provide affected horses with some relief in the form of conventional therapies, such as corticosteroids and/or hyaluronic acid injections or, in severe cases, biologic therapy. One such treatment is autologous conditioned serum (ACS), also called IRAP (interleukin-1 receptor antagonist protein).

At the 2015 American Association of Equine Practitioner’s convention, held Dec. 5-9 in Las Vegas, Dane Tatarniuk, DVM, MS, clinical instructor in equine surgery and sports medicine at the University of Minnesota’s College of Veterinary Medicine, in St. Paul, presented a study in which he and colleagues examined the composition of ACS—in particular an anti-inflammatory cytokine called the interleukin-1 receptor antagonist , or IL-1ra.

“There is prior evidence of this biologic therapy helping; however, the entire composition of ACS is unknown,” he explained. “Prior research has focused predominately on IL-1ra, however many proteins (both anti-inflammatory and pro-inflammatory) may be present within the therapy.”

But first, a little background on how ACS works. When a joint sustains injury, trauma stimulates the release of inflammatory proteins within the joint including IL-1 and other cytokines (proteins that signal cells to move toward inflammation sites). These accelerate and worsen inflammation, contributing to cartilage degradation that leads to an overall downward spiral of joint degeneration.

The objective in using ACS is to block the activity of interleukin-1 on joint tissues and slow osteoarthritis progression. To obtain ACS, the veterinarian draws blood from the horse and incubates it for 24 hours in a syringe with borosilicate beads that stimulate IRAP production. Centrifuging the blood at this point removes IRAP-containing serum from the blood cells for immediate injection back into the joint or freezing for future use.

In the study Tatarniuk described, he and colleagues selected 11 horses with confirmed coffin joint arthritis and administered ACS as three injections spaced seven days apart: Day 0, 7, and 14. He said the ACS therapy was compared to two control groups: one which had no exposure to beads or incubation, and another that had no exposure to beads but was incubated for the same duration as the ACS therapy. Synovial fluid samples collected at Day 7, 14, and 21, and compared back to a baseline synovial fluid sample originally taken from each horse that was treated on Day 0 (prior to any ACS treatment).

“Following ACS administration, IL-1ra (the main protein that is advocated as effective in the product) was unchanged in synovial fluid samples … as compared to the baseline prior to treatment,” Tatarniuk said.

He said he isn’t sure why there was no change, but his team has several hypothesis, including:

• The IL-1ra protein is highly actively bound to the IL-1 receptor. Therefore there was no increase in concentration within synovial fluid found when synovial fluid was sampled seven days following treatment; or
• Potentially, the IL-1ra protein is degraded, absorbed, or metabolized out of the joint within the seven day timeframe.

“This is an important consideration, as if the therapy is only staying in the joint for a very transient time, then it may have implications for its effectiveness as a therapeutic,” Tatarniuk said.

More research is needed to confirm the actual cause of this finding, he added.

The number of needle sticks in the joint or the presence of blood contamination had no effect on the results. Interestingly, he said, there were no changes in lameness scores throughout the 21 days. When evaluating IL-1ra concentrations in ACS compared to control serum groups, ACS was different from regular serum but not different compared to the incubated control group.

Tatarniuk said the team’s results were two-fold. “The concentrations within the ACS product (serum) show that ACS increased only when compared to the unconditioned, unincubated control group,” he explained. “This is important (because) ACS is highly advertised as requiring borosilicate beads to increase IL-1ra. However, it appears from our findings that incubation alone may also result in comparable concentrations. This statement only holds true when looking at IL-1ra concentrations alone.”

Secondly, “when looking at all biomarkers (other proteins than IL-1ra) there still is a difference between ACS and incubated, unconditioned serum—to be specific, decrease levels of IL-4, IL-6, IL-8 and increase levels of IGF-1),” he continued. “So, we can’t entirely state that ACS is exactly the same as incubated serum without exposure to beads, when considering the global concentration of proteins (or, the biomarkers).”

[Richie]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

They say that 20 to 30 trainers, gallopers and harness use this system in NZ?

How many are gallopers and how many are harness?

I do know that the second leading trainers in the country do NOT use this method of blood improvement that clearly gives certain stables a helluva advantage, whether it is legal or not!

If the ones that are using this blood enhancement system that obviously costs a lot of money to use, would it be possible that there are other systems being used as well by the 20 to 30 trainers?

 

By the 2nd leading trainers are you referring to the Dunn stables.

I have been told that they use a lot of gold injections for the welfare of their horses and also obviously use Ketoprofen as the Kirk Larsen trained Melina Lowe case involving a Dunn employee,Craig Smith showed.

 

[Newmarket]

1 hour ago, Richie said:

By the 2nd leading trainers are you referring to the Dunn stables.

I have been told that they use a lot of gold injections for the welfare of their horses and also obviously use Ketoprofen as the Kirk Larsen trained Melina Lowe case involving a Dunn employee,Craig Smith showed.

 

Just as well you said that here and not on other site, protected species there. 

[Portfolio]

Well, just had my weekly glance on shitcafe, I can say nothing has changed, apart from a couple of more new posters that really don’t exsists. 

No, I tell a lie, something has changed. P4P is now a gentle, loving almost human like poster, while scoobs is now an aggressive arshole, by the way, we are all wankers here too?

[hesi]

Nothing to do with the topic, but just correcting the inferred assertion made that this site is made up from everyone banned from RC

Not true, maybe only 1%

The rest of us just left and got on and helped build this site

Edited June 24, 2018 by hesi

[Portfolio]

Just now, hesi said:

Nothing to do with the topic, but just correcting the inferred assertion made that this site is made up from everyone banned from RC

Not true, maybe only 1%

The rest of us just left and got on and built this site

Be over 1% that’s for sure. 50% of the harness guys were banned at least. Back then, we were called gypsies, abused etc. Obviously getting treated better now, mind you it’s pretty easy with only 3 or 4 posting under different names.

[hesi]

Ok we'll double my offer to 2%

[Noodlum]

40 minutes ago, Portfolio said:

Well, just had my weekly glance on shitcafe, I can say nothing has changed, apart from a couple of more new posters that really don’t exsists. 

No, I tell a lie, something has changed. P4P is now a gentle, loving almost human like poster, while scoobs is now an aggressive arshole, by the way, we are all wankers here too?

Who is he referring to?  I'm still posting on the other site.  I use a different name of course.  Seems all a little unhinged.

Anyway those reading this site already know it isn't blood doping.  The thing I don't get is if it isn't performance enhancing why post on facebook the success of the stables that are using it?  If it is theraputic then do the stables that use it have a lot of stressed out horses?

If it is used as a preventative does that mean those that use it can work their horses harder?  It seems to be an expensive treatment if it is used regularly.  How long does the "treated" or "processed" blood last for in the fridge?  It seems you can only use the processed product on the horse that the original blood came from.  

Edited June 24, 2018 by Noodlum

[Portfolio]

Nice post Noodlum.