Thomass Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 So the thoroughly researched document you've been preparing on the change in Whip rules is due this Friday... ...little thanks to NZTR who failed to PIN the details and just let it disappear into the heather though.. Just remember the key details of any worthwhile presentation should include the following A) Horses feel pain....especially down the flank region where the research suggests 70% plus strikes end up...mostly the non 'padded' hard crop piece... ...also the flank's nerve endings have been scientifically compared to humans and found to be as sensitive if not more... ...and remember when you accidently...sometimes on purpose...tickled that area..you ended up being Shang highed half way to Beijing B) The aesthetics....watching Opee I love the Whip Bosson hit a horse 20 times...ignoring the rules...when winning at Tauranga recently...was APPALLING viewing... Potential new participants are sickened by such blatant disregard of the rules of horse welfare...but also Punters, who know the Whip makes horses faster and receive an unfair advantage because of it...where last year's Wellington Cup had the first 3 home ALL breaking Whip rules...should have been DQ'd C) The rest of the World are light years ahead of us Colonials on Whip violations...no wonder they look down on us with contempt and treat us like Country cuzzies D) Consequtive stride whipping....is blatently unfair and gives a non trier even more impetus to get its mind focussed on avoiding further pain....banned before the 100M now then unlimited in the last big bash 100M... So your recommendation should state 5 only non consequtive strikes through the entire race....let's face reality here...suggest banning it and they'll dismiss your thoughts outright...6 a heavy suspension...7 the ability to protest agin the other horse... ...and 8 a DQ! There MUST be an ultimate penalty for blatant cheating especially with the big money up and black type So get off your lazy ass's and basically cutnpaste moi's...Just do it https://loveracing.nz/OnHorseFiles/No.18 - 18-11-20 - NZTR Circular FY21 - Whip Use Consultation.pdf 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 So here's a very good example of whipping the flank from Lisa Allpress on the weekend. Her modus is a combination regime similar to swapping hands.which stimulates even more adrenaline in a horse. Backhand to start, down the shoulder and a short hand jab to the flank An all over combo. One of the reasons anything behind the saddle should be banned.invariably the flank is worked on in any combo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Thomass said: So here's a very good example of whipping the flank from Lisa Allpress on the weekend. Yes an excellent Jockey. Known for her skill at being kind to the horse. 2 hours ago, Thomass said: Her modus is a combination regime similar to swapping hands.which stimulates even more adrenaline in a horse. Backhand to start, down the shoulder and a short hand jab to the flank An all over combo. One of the reasons anything behind the saddle should be banned.invariably the flank is worked on in any combo So you are an expert on Jockey skills now? From what I've seen it has been a long time since you were on a horse. Actually I doubt if ever. What's your point? I'm starting to come to the conclusion going on the tenor of all your posts that you are one of these animal activist shill's or sock puppet's that has one objective in mind and that is to close racing down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 Mate you'll do best if you just stick to the POINT.. Has Allpress's diliberate flank strike caused pain to the horse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 17 minutes ago, Thomass said: Mate you'll do best if you just stick to the POINT.. Has Allpress's diliberate flank strike caused pain to the horse? No tell us all what your objective is. Arguably galloping a horse at speed over distances that it isn't designed for causes pain. As for how much pain the horse feels from the whip, one of the many flaws in so called science you didn't provide links to, is that it doesn't measure the overall level of pain the horse is feeling in the last 200m of a race. From personal experience as an athlete that last part of a race in oxygen debt can be sheer torture. I doubt it is any different for a horse. What's your view on that? Is that the next area of attack on your agenda as a shill? BTW if you could post the links of your spurious research to Neil Davis at Formpro (as per your Twitter account) why couldn't you post the same here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 A couple of questions about whip use in races.especially in the last few hundred meters of a race.. If, as whip proponents say, horses don't feel the pain when struck with a whip.why hit them at all? Is smashing a horse with a whip near the finish a sign of frustration or panic on behalf of riders who don't know better or who are so unskilled that they have to resort to the whip? Or riders who have been put under extreme pressure to 'win' or else? Don't anybody try to say that aint happening right here in NZ right now. Top riders World wide don't whip horses. They may carry a whip, and they strike the horse with the whip to get the horses' attention, i.e.' hey mate, this is a race, time for your best effort!.,.but they do not flail with the whip. This is 2021. I've been around long enough to have seen the ' belters' here and across the ditch. Thankfully those types are disappearing like the dinosaurs. Do punters watching racing on tv and screaming..' hit the fucking thing' really have any idea about 'the horse'? Or do they care? And yes, I live with horses 24x7 and I have observed and cared for them for many years. They are not dumb creatures, they do feel pain. they do anticipate pain and human behaviour. They are individuals, so even the ones who are 'slow' or who don't meet human expectations are still beautiful animals. They deserve a hell of a lot better then many people are prepared to give. Belting them with whips is-or is going to be-a thing of the past in the near future. Can't come soon enough. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Horace said: Belting them with whips is-or is going to be-a thing of the past in the near future. Can't come soon enough. So are you going to ban them from ALL parts of the horse racing supply chain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Horace said: They are individuals, so even the ones who are 'slow' or who don't meet human expectations are still beautiful animals. They deserve a hell of a lot better then many people are prepared to give. So I guess like Thomas's arguments the obvious conclusion and desire on your part is to ban racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 43 minutes ago, Horace said: A couple of questions about whip use in races.especially in the last few hundred meters of a race.. If, as whip proponents say, horses don't feel the pain when struck with a whip.why hit them at all? Is smashing a horse with a whip near the finish a sign of frustration or panic on behalf of riders who don't know better or who are so unskilled that they have to resort to the whip? Or riders who have been put under extreme pressure to 'win' or else? Don't anybody try to say that aint happening right here in NZ right now. Top riders World wide don't whip horses. They may carry a whip, and they strike the horse with the whip to get the horses' attention, i.e.' hey mate, this is a race, time for your best effort!.,.but they do not flail with the whip. This is 2021. I've been around long enough to have seen the ' belters' here and across the ditch. Thankfully those types are disappearing like the dinosaurs. Do punters watching racing on tv and screaming..' hit the fucking thing' really have any idea about 'the horse'? Or do they care? And yes, I live with horses 24x7 and I have observed and cared for them for many years. They are not dumb creatures, they do feel pain. they do anticipate pain and human behaviour. They are individuals, so even the ones who are 'slow' or who don't meet human expectations are still beautiful animals. They deserve a hell of a lot better then many people are prepared to give. Belting them with whips is-or is going to be-a thing of the past in the near future. Can't come soon enough. Great post Horace ! !! you mentioned so many situations well, current NZ, overseas riders and PUB/tab riders . I just watched a replay of a 'HIGH'pressure race overseas, to see what those jockeys were doing. I chose the last JAPAN CUP, as always a stirring contest at 2400m. The fabulous ALMOND EYE winning and wow, those topclass jockeys and horses driving close to the finish for high stake-money placings, and I couldn't see a whip in action !! just excellent racing. Yes the whip use has been 'phasing-out ' for some time. In harness racing , they can't lift arm or even put reins in one hand to use whip, and in racing the young ladies with fine balance and ability to get horses to give them their best are leading the way (Kah in Oz and Danielle and Linda in NZ) as the 'belters' phase out . Everyone wants what's best for the horse. your paragraph Horace, on overseas where they still are 'Showing' the horse the whip for attention is quite relevant as well. Hong Kong racing they often see Moreira and others waving it up outside winkers to get the horses attention and still be there to race and do their best. Horses are great and love to run, but they still need some prompting to do their best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: So are you going to ban them from ALL parts of the horse racing supply chain? I think you read it wrong Chief as Horace had a paragraph about the jockeys carrying a whip overseas , 'to get horses attention' which he was fine with, but was against 'Belting them ' with it . nothing about banning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Hong Kong racing they often see Moreira and others waving it up outside winkers to get the horses attention and still be there to race and do their best. In New Zealand if you did that you would run the risk of a prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act and a fine up to $1,500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, Gammalite said: racing the young ladies with fine balance and ability to get horses to give them their best are leading the way (Kah in Oz and Danielle and Linda in NZ) as the 'belters' phase out . I'm not sure who "Linda" is but both Kah and Danielle are excellent proponents of using the whip when in a pressure situation. Horses for courses as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I'm not sure who "Linda" is but both Kah and Danielle are excellent proponents of using the whip when in a pressure situation. Horses for courses as they say. OMG , i meant Lisa , sorry Chief. Lisa Allpress. but we could roll with Linda Jones MBE if you like. I remember her doing a great job for NZ racing when i was a kid, and a true Trailblazer !! not sure about her whip work though .lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Gammalite said: I think you read it wrong Chief as Horace had a paragraph about the jockeys carrying a whip overseas , 'to get horses attention' which he was fine with, but was against 'Belting them ' with it . nothing about banning. Perhaps but he is absolutely wrong in his assertion that top riders world wide don't use the whip. Just out of interest is the stock whip banned now behind the barriers? I'm in favour of retaining the whip. There are worse practices in the development and racing of a Thoroughbred. Banning the whip is a slippery slope. Dont give an inch and focus more on the positives of racing to counter the animal activists. The nonsensical compromises around how many times the whip can be used and at what distance are just giving the fodder to those who want racing stopped. Read my lips: THEY WANT RACING STOPPED! Jockey recruitment, ability and training is a big issue in New Zealand and in Australia. Those issues should be addressed first before kowtowing to the PC Woke brigade. The upside of doing that is you actually solve a lot of the problems. I guess people didn't learn from the Prohibition Era - prohibiting the sale and consumption of alcohol didn't stop anything! Perhaps the resources that went into the rules and regulations and the policing of them would have been better applied to education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Perhaps but he is absolutely wrong in his assertion that top riders world wide don't use the whip. Just out of interest is the stock whip banned now behind the barriers? I'm in favour of retaining the whip. There are worse practices in the development and racing of a Thoroughbred. Banning the whip is a slippery slope. Dont give an inch and focus more on the positives of racing to counter the animal activists. The nonsensical compromises around how many times the whip can be used and at what distance are just giving the fodder to those who want racing stopped. Read my lips: THEY WANT RACING STOPPED! Jockey recruitment, ability and training is a big issue in New Zealand and in Australia. Those issues should be addressed first before kowtowing to the PC Woke brigade. The upside of doing that is you actually solve a lot of the problems. I guess people didn't learn from the Prohibition Era - prohibiting the sale and consumption of alcohol didn't stop anything! Perhaps the resources that went into the rules and regulations and the policing of them would have been better applied to education. Horse racing won't stop chief , there is $Billions tied up in it. Thousands of employees, traditions like Christmas that just will carry on since roman chariot racing days. The NSW racing premier set out to close Greyhound racing down after some ethical atrocities, But couldn't as too many GOOD folk employed in that industry as well and putting them all out just not Justifiable. Not even remotely possible in horse racing industry. BTW, i notice Horace did say the overseas riders do strike with the whip 'to get horses attention' , so he wasn't asserting they don't use the whip. Your arguement is not great about stockwhips , behind barrier nor breaking in , as yes they are used on those occasions to effect often. You're NOT exactly belting them with it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 8 minutes ago, Gammalite said: OMG , i meant Lisa , sorry Chief. Lisa Allpress. but we could roll with Linda Jones MBE if you like. Then you object to Thomass using her as an example for his Crusade? I assure you Lisa isn't shy of giving a horse a solid rebuke when it needs one. Isn't it funny that most champion racehorses are real arseholes. Some only on raceday others all the time. If they were human you probably wouldn't like them. Reminds me of a story. Michael Walker rode the good mare I had a share in. Now she generally was a nice placid mare but the moment you put a saddle on her she switched. She'd be asleep in the stall so you'd put the saddle over her back, not tie anything and the first thing she'd do was shake her head and pushed her front legs forward and stretch her whole body to the point where her belly was damn near touching the ground. Then you could strap the saddle up. Her nostrils would flare and watch where you were in relation to her legs. When she won the Taranaki Cup she nearly swiped the strappers head off with her front foot. Andrew Calder rode her that day - why do all the good ones struggle with weight? Anyway different race with MW. BTW I dont rate Michael Walker as a horseman. A great rider on the right type of horse but not a great horseman in my opinion. So Madam was switched on for this particular race and being assertive behind the stalls but a good horseman would have went with the flow. MW decided otherwise and fought her to the point he gave her a tap on the head with the whip. Just a tap. She threw him off! Just stood there! Didn't take off or run away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 9 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Your arguement is not great about stockwhips , behind barrier nor breaking in , as yes they are used on those occasions to effect often. You're NOT exactly belting them with it though. But they cause pain and fear. So if you apply the same philosophy you'd ban them too. FFS you have to get a vet out now to "painlessly" remove a steers horns! And what's that done? Just made your steak dearer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: But they cause pain and fear. So if you apply the same philosophy you'd ban them too. FFS you have to get a vet out now to "painlessly" remove a steers horns! And what's that done? Just made your steak dearer! Fear it is then Chief, of course, you are trying to scare the horse yes ! to go into barrier, or a Man from snowy river 'round-up' crack the whip, also breaking in , is VERY useful, while long-reigning often a little flick here and there, you can drive them up truck tailgates, lunging in the bull-ring to mouth them, all sorts of things that they won't do by just asking them nicely .lol.. So fully agree with you , whips are needed (in some capacity here and there) NO WAY could I possible drive in a race without one and get a horse to produce it's best with just reign work and noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 11 minutes ago, Gammalite said: NO WAY could I possible drive in a race without one and get a horse to produce it's best with just reign work and noise. Correct. It's a bit like bringing up kids. Never threaten a punishment that you cant or aren't willing to follow through with. A horse will soon learn that waving a whip at it means nothing nor yelling "Hurry up Gammie because if you don't I might whip you".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: So I guess like Thomas's arguments the obvious conclusion and desire on your part is to ban racing. Show me where I said anything like that chief. Or Thomas for that matter. In fact my 'interim' solution in New Zealand racing is this: 5 strikes maximum throughout the race, no consecutive strikes. This should be instituted right now, and lets see how it would affect the quality/safety of racing. I'm picking we wouldn't see any difference at all. And that would lead to the ban on all strikes in my opinion. Racing would carry on regardless. Having ridden myself I'd accept that riders could carry whips but their only use would be for safety issues. Any use outside these boundaries should lead to a protest and disqualification of a horse which is placed..in fact that should be instituted right now also. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 2:17 PM, Horace said: Show me where I said anything like that chief. Or Thomas for that matter. In fact my 'interim' solution in New Zealand racing is this: 5 strikes maximum throughout the race, no consecutive strikes. This should be instituted right now, and lets see how it would affect the quality/safety of racing. I'm picking we wouldn't see any difference at all. And that would lead to the ban on all strikes in my opinion. Racing would carry on regardless. Having ridden myself I'd accept that riders could carry whips but their only use would be for safety issues. Any use outside these boundaries should lead to a protest and disqualification of a horse which is placed..in fact that should be instituted right now also. I'm just making a brief comeback here... My last sentence above...' Any use outside these boundaries should lead to a protest and disqualification of a horse which is placed...in fact that should be instituted right now also' Never better illustrated that the win of Amahlarina today. Bosson got fined $2000 and suspended for 3 fairly inconsequential days after winning today. It's cheating.The only thing stopping a Rule being instituted by NZ Racing is LAZINESS on behalf of oathum and his cronies. They obviously see it as more work..can't be bothered. anybody got any real reason why such a Rule can't be put in place? It would very quickly stop this blatant and intentional cheating we keep seeing..often when riders are wearing a certain colour of silk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 As soon as i seen the finish i knew he was in trouble , in fact Grylls as well might be in trouble but apparently not . Whilst i'm not in agreement with you regarding a certain stable as this happens in all the big races no matter which stable . Until horses are disqualified when jocks break this rule then it will continue , jocks will only fall into line if they think they will lose the race . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 I know I have harped on this before...to the point of pissing people off, no doubt....but - do the best UK riders appear weak in a finish? Do their mounts not try when asked? Watch Frankie, Ryan Moore, go back and watch Lester, the rules may have been a bit different in his day, but I defy anyone to claim his mounts were given a soft option when it came to the business end. Horses just didn't change their mind under a ride from McCoy. Good jockeys can get the best out their mounts without bashing them. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 12 minutes ago, Freda said: go back and watch Lester, the rules may have been a bit different in his day, but I defy anyone to claim his mounts were given a soft option when it came to the business end. Bollocks quite often he beat the crap out of them and would have been pinged under today's rules. Watch this one - does the commentator say and "here's Royal Academy on the outside with Lester Piggott flailing away"! He sure new how to leverage a damn good whack that makes Opie look soft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 11 minutes ago, Freda said: I know I have harped on this before...to the point of pissing people off, no doubt....but - do the best UK riders appear weak in a finish? Do their mounts not try when asked? Watch Frankie, Ryan Moore, go back and watch Lester, the rules may have been a bit different in his day, but I defy anyone to claim his mounts were given a soft option when it came to the business end. Horses just didn't change their mind under a ride from McCoy. Good jockeys can get the best out their mounts without bashing them. I agree Freda , the thing is they will only have to disqualify a couple of big race winners to get the message thru , in fact if it is made clear what the consequences are it will only have to be minor races to show you mean business . When i was a kid my brother and myself would religiously end up spending most of the first day of school holidays in seperate bedrooms after being told no fighting or else . Well the rest of the hols were sweet after that , we knew mum was serious and pulled our heads in . Only issue was we always scrapped on the way up the stairs to see who got mum's bedroom , cause it was much more interesting . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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