nomates Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Bollocks quite often he beat the crap out of them and would have been pinged under today's rules. Watch this one - does the commentator say and "here's Royal Academy on the outside with Lester Piggott flailing away"! He sure new how to leverage a damn good whack that makes Opie look soft. Looked to me he only hit behind the saddle every 4 strides till the last hundred , only once behind before the 200 , twice more between the 200 and the 100 and only 7 times behind the saddle in total , 4 of those in the last 100 . Can't compare it to OB today . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 6 hours ago, nomates said: Looked to me he only hit behind the saddle every 4 strides till the last hundred , only once behind before the 200 , twice more between the 200 and the 100 and only 7 times behind the saddle in total , 4 of those in the last 100 . Can't compare it to OB today . Quite agree. In addition, I wasn't aware that Breeders' Cups were run in the UK which is to where I was referring. When Lester came to NZ to ride in an International series, at Ellerslie I think, he adapted to our whip rules immediately. No restrictions then and he took advantage of that. The point is that the UK has rules that jockeys must abide by, and do so without any loss of competitiveness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Would you like me to post some more videos of Lester's "whip" rides? It is easy to fall into believing a myth when the evidence is different. I sure likes the way Lester got that really long swing in his whip action. He applies the contact nearly perpendicular getting maximum applied force. Very efficient as you need less hits to presumably get the same result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Would you like me to post some more videos of Lester's "whip" rides? It is easy to fall into believing a myth when the evidence is different. I sure likes the way Lester got that really long swing in his whip action. He applies the contact nearly perpendicular getting maximum applied force. Very efficient as you need less hits to presumably get the same result. It's disappointing that you continue to defend the thrashing of horses Chief. This is 2021. People with small minds, like the current crop of non achieving raceday stewards,will have to accept very soon that they're wrong. Pressure on whip use will not abate and the industry in NZ should accept the situation NOW and adopt the ' protest' rule that I and others are promoting. It would be a step in the right direction. Currently there is very real suspicion that penalties, especially fines, aren't working as the offending jocks don't end up paying them...I'm talking especially of major races where prizemoney and ongoing stud implications far outweigh the few grand imposed as fines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 26 minutes ago, Horace said: fines, aren't working as the offending jocks don't end up paying them Explain what you mean by this statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 30 minutes ago, Horace said: It's disappointing that you continue to defend the thrashing of horses Chief. This is 2021. People with small minds, like the current crop of non achieving raceday stewards,will have to accept very soon that they're wrong. Pressure on whip use will not abate and the industry in NZ should accept the situation NOW and adopt the ' protest' rule that I and others are promoting. It would be a step in the right direction. Currently there is very real suspicion that penalties, especially fines, aren't working as the offending jocks don't end up paying them...I'm talking especially of major races where prizemoney and ongoing stud implications far outweigh the few grand imposed as fines. Horace - getting Chief to change his mind or admit he is wrong is rearer than a Te Akau horse running without blinkers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, Tesio said: Horace - getting Chief to change his mind or admit he is wrong is rearer than a Te Akau horse running without blinkers. Tesio it was Horace that chose the current example for debate and ignored many other examples available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 I'm sure you are all across the whip "rules". But you must admit they are subjective in their interpretation. Can one of the anti-whip experts point me in the direction in the rules where it defines the prior to the 100m "rule" or how many hits are "excessive"? As for the penalty that was imposed in this latest example. The penalty was as per the guidelines published 9 December 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 I'm sorry I ever mentioned Lester. The point, Chief that has obviously escaped you, is that riders have to abide by rules of their jurisdiction....whether or not they particularly want to or even agree with. And, like it or not, front footing a issue has to be better than ignoring it. 12 hours ago, nomates said: Looked to me he only hit behind the saddle every 4 strides till the last hundred , only once behind before the 200 , twice more between the 200 and the 100 and only 7 times behind the saddle in total , 4 of those in the last 100 . Can't compare it to OB today . Quite agree. In addition, I wasn't aware that Breeders' Cups were run in the UK which is to where I was referring. When Lester came to NZ to ride in an International series, at Ellerslie I think, he adapted to our whip rules immediately. No restrictions then and he took advantage of that. The point is that the UK has rules that jockeys must abide by, and do so without any loss of competitiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Just now, Freda said: I'm sorry I ever mentioned Lester. The point, Chief that has obviously escaped you, is that riders have to abide by rules of their jurisdiction....whether or not they particularly want to or even agree with. And, like it or not, front footing a issue has to be better than ignoring it. Quite agree. In addition, I wasn't aware that Breeders' Cups were run in the UK which is to where I was referring. When Lester came to NZ to ride in an International series, at Ellerslie I think, he adapted to our whip rules immediately. No restrictions then and he took advantage of that. The point is that the UK has rules that jockeys must abide by, and do so without any loss of competitiveness. Dunno what my phone is doing. I'm having a bad morning anyway.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Now after reviewing the race video - seems Needle and Thread was whipped just as much inside the 100m. So the "unwritten rule" is if you hit too many times (what's too many?) before the 100m it is deemed excessive. Inside 100m it is all on it seems. Most of the strikes with the whip were within the last 150m and if you look at the front on there wasn't much difference between Grylls and Bosson in their whipping efforts over that last part. So to say that Bosson got an unfair advantage that made a difference is crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 20 minutes ago, Freda said: The point is that the UK has rules that jockeys must abide by, and do so without any loss of competitiveness. Suggest you review Lester's ride on The Minstrel in the King George and QE Cup 1977. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Here is the head-on from yesterday's Sunline Vase. Is there really that much difference between Gryll's ride and Bosson's? 1529322547_AKLD-sunlinevase.mp4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 24 minutes ago, Freda said: The point, Chief that has obviously escaped you, is that riders have to abide by rules of their jurisdiction....whether or not they particularly want to or even agree with. Are you saying Piggott never ever got pinged for anything? Piggott had frequent suspensions for careless riding. He had a reputation for being one of the most fiercely competitive riders ever. Even "borrowed" a whip off another rider during a race after he had dropped his. Not to forget the time he whipped another rider during a race! Hell all the top riders in OZ are in and out of suspension on a frequent basis. We only have a couple of Jockey's currently riding in NZ that are up to the OZ standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Horace said: It's disappointing that you continue to defend the thrashing of horses Chief. Isn't the use of the term "thrashing" rather an emotive one? Such terms only serve to assist the small minority of anti-racing folk. 2 hours ago, Horace said: Pressure on whip use will not abate and the industry in NZ should accept the situation NOW and adopt the ' protest' rule that I and others are promoting. It would be a step in the right direction. No it is a step in the wrong direction. It is a step down the slippery slope to oblivion. It is naive to think that making token gestures regarding whip rules will alter the anti-racing lobby groups agenda. Face up to the fact that they want NO RACING at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Suggest you review Lester's ride on The Minstrel in the King George and QE Cup 1977. 1977...? Isn't that just proof that racing attitudes have evolved?. I give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Isn't the use of the term "thrashing" rather an emotive one? Such terms only serve to assist the small minority of anti-racing folk. No it is a step in the wrong direction. It is a step down the slippery slope to oblivion. It is naive to think that making token gestures regarding whip rules will alter the anti-racing lobby groups agenda. Face up to the fact that they want NO RACING at all! Ha! Token gestures? So what, should we get rid of the interference rule? Reckless riding? Weighing in light? What you're missing is that punters want a level playing field. In all 'sports'. In racing, by turning a blind eye to thrashing horses your'e advocating that cheating is acceptable as long as you get the 'right result'. No wonder a lot of young people are put off by racing. You can't get away with thrashing dogs in public, why should racing be any different.? p.s. You are selective in reading my posts Chief. I wrote some time back I'm not 'anti-whip'. But I am anti 'excessive use of whips.' 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Freda said: 1977...? Isn't that just proof that racing attitudes have evolved?. I give up. Freda you are the one that used Lester Piggott as an example! His last ride was 26 years ago! At the age of 60! Piggott is exactly the same as all the top Jockey's. An incredible feel for a horse and knowing when it is giving its best. A fierce competitor who crossed the rule line on many occasions to WIN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 18 minutes ago, Horace said: What you're missing is that punters want a level playing field. So you backed Needle and Thread? You are saying Bosson cheated to win because the Stipes said so. Yet any unbiased person be they a racing enthusiast or not would look at that head on shot and say they couldn't see any difference between both Jockey's ride over the last 150m. Define "thrashing"? Define "excessive"? Excessive is what is in the rule book but what does it mean? In my opinion "thrashing" is when a poor Jockey whips the shyte out of a horse that has given everything it has. Everyone who has followed Bosson's career knows he isn't one of those types of Jockey's. We wait for your definitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Of course no one has mentioned the irony out the same race - the Sunline Vase. Lisa Allpress got a warning of "her obligation to ride her mounts out fully to the end of the race when circumstances permit her to do so." If she had done that would that be called "thrashing"? She rode Spine Tingle which finished 6.8 lengths from the winner in 7th place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 16 hours ago, Horace said: I'm just making a brief comeback here... My last sentence above...' Any use outside these boundaries should lead to a protest and disqualification of a horse which is placed...in fact that should be instituted right now also' Never better illustrated that the win of Amahlarina today. Bosson got fined $2000 and suspended for 3 fairly inconsequential days after winning today. It's cheating.The only thing stopping a Rule being instituted by NZ Racing is LAZINESS on behalf of oathum and his cronies. They obviously see it as more work..can't be bothered. anybody got any real reason why such a Rule can't be put in place? It would very quickly stop this blatant and intentional cheating we keep seeing..often when riders are wearing a certain colour of silk. Couldn't have said it better Horace... And of course his '3 days' includes Gorrrrre and Ashburton! FFS....one day plus a 2k fine easily paid for by wtf knows? As we know now...Guerin said on Way In... " I'll pay the fine of any of my jockeys" Yep #integritynzstyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 49 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Of course no one has mentioned the irony out the same race - the Sunline Vase. Lisa Allpress got a warning of "her obligation to ride her mounts out fully to the end of the race when circumstances permit her to do so." If she had done that would that be called "thrashing"? She rode Spine Tingle which finished 6.8 lengths from the winner in 7th place! This just shows how incompetant the stipes and rule makers are , as you say above , watching beaten horses getting the stick is unnecessary , especially after poor rides , or horses clearly going to win and the jock is still putting a couple round it's arse . Completely uncalled for . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 8 hours ago, Freda said: Quite agree. In addition, I wasn't aware that Breeders' Cups were run in the UK which is to where I was referring. When Lester came to NZ to ride in an International series, at Ellerslie I think, he adapted to our whip rules immediately. No restrictions then and he took advantage of that. The point is that the UK has rules that jockeys must abide by, and do so without any loss of competitiveness. He did Freda...but don't forget... The Feds allowed him to use his longer Brit Whip here!! FFS, did we bend over backwards or what to please our superiors in those days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Just now, Thomass said: He did Freda...but don't forget... The Feds allowed him to use his longer Brit Whip here!! FFS, did we bend over backwards or what to please our superiors in those days! Yea but we were just the " Colonials " back then . We're a much more " Modern Beast " now . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 16 minutes ago, Thomass said: Couldn't have said it better Horace... And of course his '3 days' includes Gorrrrre and Ashburton! FFS....one day plus a 2k fine easily paid for by wtf knows? As we know now...Guerin said on Way In... " I'll pay the fine of any of my jockeys" Yep #integritynzstyle As per the penalty guidelines with regard to minimums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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