Horace Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Where is the evidence of this "defening noise of protest"? Once again you haven't read my post correctly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Horace said: Once again you haven't read my post correctly. Ok I'll rephrase my question - where is the evidence that this is becoming a "big issue" with the general public? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Likewise as Thomass and Nomates says , the Horses feel the 'consequences' of this trying to win. In Thomarse's case he seems more worried about his punt and Opie beating him by "cheating"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, Gammalite said: AND the public sees the whip being used whether 10, 20, or 30 times . WTF!! horses can't count , nor can public Yep and the general public are not watching let alone counting. In my opinion the industry itself is making an issue when there isn't one. If they spent more time promoting the positives of the industry instead of kowtowing to a very very small minority the industry would be better off. The biggest issue for NZ racing is losing punting revenue not because people are protesting through their punting pockets about whips but because they are offered better wagering products elsewhere. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: In Thomarse's case he seems more worried about his punt and Opie beating him by "cheating"! Hahaha yeah he loves to call Cheat hahaha Lucky he doesn't play Poker lol.... Opie far from a Cheat. What a great rider! I was thoroughly impressed with that win . good try by Grylls too. Great racing picked apart for not much reason. (a few 'extra' slaps) my guess is Horses Can't Count , so 10 or 20 makes no difference IMO, either some or none ? that way horse is up on the play of the day ?? hahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Yep and the general public are not watching let alone counting. In my opinion the industry itself is making an issue when there isn't one. If the spent more time promoting the positives of the industry instead of kowtowing to a very very small minority. The biggest issue for NZ racing is losing punting revenue not because people are protesting through their punting pockets about whips but because they are offered better wagering products elsewhere. Exactly and well put. Some in the industry are creating a problem so they can be the ones that are seen to fix it, much like has been done with the venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 18 minutes ago, Huey said: Exactly and well put. Some in the industry are creating a problem so they can be the ones that are seen to fix it, much like has been done with the venues. A similar thing is happening with the "cradle to the grave" supposed welfare issue. Are horses really that different to other types of animal agriculture? How many so called animal activists have a cat or a dog? I often point out to those types when debating the issue that they are hypocrites. Their pets are natural born meat eaters and their cats spend all night hunting. 25% of carbon emissions from animal agriculture are generated by the pet food industry! Yes it is easier to become attached to a race horse than a dairy cow, although I do know some that have named their cows, but why does a race horse owner have to be responsible for a slow horse for 30 years? Mind you there is a great deal of hypocrisy within the industry too. Most champions earn a lifetime reprieve from death row. The horse racing industry is lucky in one respect. Most of the general public are scared of horses and can't relate to them. Whereas most love those little cuddly puppies and the loyal dog. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: A similar thing is happening with the "cradle to the grave" supposed welfare issue. Are horses really that different to other types of animal agriculture? How many so called animal activists have a cat or a dog? I often point out to those types when debating the issue that they are hypocrites. Their pets are natural born meat eaters and their cats spend all night hunting. 25% of carbon emissions from animal agriculture are generated by the pet food industry! 'Animals don't think like humans ' that is what activists should be told. A million chooks in a giant shed are pretty happy as are with their mates, getting a big feed, and a drink. no drama. The greyhounds Love to Chase !! I've no problem with it. The dogs are almost dancing with excitement ! what a great thing the humans have brought to them. The racehorses !! bred to run ! they love it. I worked with horses for years , then vets, easy to see which horses were better looked after and enjoying life. Yeah !!! the last 200m of a race is tough , but it is for all of us !! hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 9, 2021 Author Share Posted March 9, 2021 12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: In Thomarse's case he seems more worried about his punt and Opie beating him by "cheating"! Au Contrare... In a highly regulated sport such as Thoroughbred Racing, where BIG money's involved, there needs to ABSOLUTE adherence to maintain... INTEGRITY It starts and ends there... Allowing cheats like Opee to gain advantages in now two Black Type races, within a few months, shows there's NO INTEGRITY in the result of those 2 races, when others have followed the Racing Rules....ok? Of course Punters got screwed as well... Actually...come to think of it you maybe right for once! PUNTERS are THE most important cog in racing's wheel... ...or else Big Dave would be Racing for ribbons to tie in cheating Opee's hair.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Thomass said: Allowing cheats like Opee to gain advantages in now two Black Type races, within a few months, shows there's NO INTEGRITY in the result of those 2 races, when others have followed the Racing Rules....ok? So you ignore all the other instances of this "cheating" and just focus on Bosson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 Speaking of whips. Anyone want to count the number of strikes in this video? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 55 minutes ago, Thomass said: Allowing cheats like Opee Thomass , can i please ask you to refrain from using the word cheat , it infers a permenant inherent character trait in OB . He broke the rules and gained a result , but to continually call him a cheat is unfair and insulting . Call him the rule breaker if you must or something else . I've met cheats , he does resemble any of them . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 10, 2021 Author Share Posted March 10, 2021 6 hours ago, nomates said: Thomass , can i please ask you to refrain from using the word cheat , it infers a permenant inherent character trait in OB . He broke the rules and gained a result , but to continually call him a cheat is unfair and insulting . Call him the rule breaker if you must or something else . I've met cheats , he does resemble any of them . Read the ENTIRE CHEATING thread...then get back to me... Take note of the 'swapping pee with Bwucie'...'trying it on with Stipe Williamson' who said "deliberate attempt to deceive"....and the 10 strike before the 100m Whip thrashing back in November at Tauranga...where he threw the baby out and went for gold without a care in the World for the rules... ....and the numerous Whip incident cheating in Black Type racing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 Your right Tommy , carry on . As ever . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 20 hours ago, nomates said: Thomass , can i please ask you to refrain from using the word cheat , it infers a permenant inherent character trait in OB . He broke the rules and gained a result , but to continually call him a cheat is unfair and insulting . Call him the rule breaker if you must or something else . I've met cheats , he does resemble any of them . 'Cheating' is defined as.....' various actions designed to subvert Rules in order to obtain unfair advantages'. Describing a rider who ( intentionally) whips a horse in excess of the Rules/Guidelines as a 'cheat' would therefore seem quite appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, Horace said: 'Cheating' is defined as.....' various actions designed to subvert Rules in order to obtain unfair advantages'. Describing a rider who ( intentionally) whips a horse in excess of the Rules/Guidelines as a 'cheat' would therefore seem quite appropriate. Obvious that this isn't about horse welfare and BLM but about punting. So you label the top 20 Jockey's in Australia CHEATS too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 You are being disengenuous Chief. However, if someone is acting outside accepted Rules to gain an advantage over someone else, how would you describe their actions? Especially when the 'cheats' are extremely experienced at their trade and offend against the Rules intentionally....and please don't try to tell us that Opie ( for example ) didn't know what he was doing when he smashed that horse with the whip several times more than allowed! I recall the Commission of Enquiry into the Erebus disaster many years ago...the head of that enquiry labelled the airlines actions and responses to questions ( AirNZ) as an ' orchestrated litany of lies'. Doesn't take much imagination to see where I'm heading with this...does it? Unless you have your eyes and ears covered and only believe what you want to believe...and in saying 'you' I am not necessarily meaning you, Chief. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Horace said: You are being disengenuous Chief. And you're not being disingenuous AND selective? 1 hour ago, Horace said: please don't try to tell us that Opie ( for example ) didn't know what he was doing when he smashed that horse with the whip several times more than allowed! I've never said he "didn't know what he was doing". The difference is he had a horse under him that he knew he could get up and win. That's what good Jockey's do. How many suspensions will arise out of the Golden Slipper at the weekend? There is always at least a couple! Hell when you are only up 2 points in the Rugby World Cup with 5 mins to go a good loose forward like Richie McCaw will venture into that zone of marginal. 1 hour ago, Horace said: I recall the Commission of Enquiry into the Erebus disaster many years ago...the head of that enquiry labelled the airlines actions and responses to questions ( AirNZ) as an ' orchestrated litany of lies'. Doesn't take much imagination to see where I'm heading with this...does it? Yes I can see where you are heading. You are promoting a conspiracy theory that has no foundation to support your agenda. That agenda has been obvious from the start. However you have no evidence just inference and innuendo. Sadly your "broad brush" attempts to incriminate a lot of people including the RIU. As for the Commission of Imquiry into the Erebus Disaster that is a pet subject of mine. It occurred the day I had been informed I had been accredited UE in 6 subjects. A group of us were at a mates place playing pool on his Dads slate fullsize table when the news came through. I had also just started my private pilots license at the Hokitika Aero Club and so had more than a passing interest in aviation. By the time of the Inquiry I had my Pilots License and quite a few hours under the belt. Learning to fly on the West Coast offers its challenges particularly weather. I remember one day arriving at the airport to do some solo flying to see the plane had been chartered out and was taxiing down the runway with 4 people onboard and full fuel tanks. They were going to check their deer traps. They never came back. I was part of the initial aerial search for them. They didn't quite make it over the pass at the top of the Styx/Arahura rivers and flew into the ground. I also remember when I passed my flight test and gained my PPL what the tester said - "Doug there are two things that will kill you when flying beat-ups and bad weather. Whatever you do NEVER do both at once!". I had to ask what a beat-up was and he said that is when you fly low over the girlfriends place to impress her. So the cause of Air New Zealand Erebus disaster was as Chippendale said "flying low into a high terrain area in deteriorating weather without clearly establishing their location." That is a beat up and bad weather combination. Now Justice Mahon identified 10 causes of the accident which if any one of them hadn't happened the accident wouldn't have happened. But what did them media and the public focus on? Mahon's very colourful language describing an "orchestrated litany of lies" supposedly at Air New Zealand management and by implication NZ Government level. There may well have been but that wasn't the cause of the accident, it was a consequence of the accident. If Air New Zealand had accepted ANY liability before a thorough investigation it had the possibility of bankrupting the country. So if the pilots after travelling 3,500km from their last known and verified position (Dunedin) had confirmed their position in Antarctica first BEFORE descending VFR into an area of known high terrain AND bad weather the disaster would not have happened. Basic airmanship. Yes the wrong co-ordinates were a factor BUT should never have been relied on to have been accurate after 3,500km of travel over an ocean using technology that was known to have a margin of error. Hell McMurdo Sound couldn't verify their position. What's more the pre-flight instructions were to NOT to descend below minimums UNTIL they had confirmed their position. Even with the wrong co-ordinates they would have easily cleared Mt Erebus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Horace said: 'Cheating' is defined as.....' various actions designed to subvert Rules in order to obtain unfair advantages'. Describing a rider who ( intentionally) whips a horse in excess of the Rules/Guidelines as a 'cheat' would therefore seem quite appropriate. Even though technically an apt description, This really LAPS OVER into the 'trying to Win' territory. In a race , jockeys and drivers (harness) are Paid to try and win that race. The punting public, The Stewards, everyone ....... DEMAND that you do your best to obtain the Best possible finishing position. Often you are Scrapping that hard you break the racing rules , pushing out, cutting off, squeeeeezing everything you can from your mount, (as Opie did with the case in hand) Not EVER ONCE did I think I was 'cheating'. You ride the boundaries of infringement in any sport (cycling ,etc) to Obtain the Best Possible Result. In Racing, your description to me fits the calculated 'Preplanned 'attempts at best position. i.e administering illegal substances, etc and also calculated 'Preplanned 'attempts to not try (as in a fixed race punt , etc) The Horse cannot possibly distinguish between 10 slaps or 20 . so either whip or no whip is the ONLY answer. regarding horse welfare, and public perception of racing. Why do jockeys have to learn to count ??? So to not be a cheat ??? what a lot of rubbish. poor opie. quite inappropriate i reckon. great ride ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, Gammalite said: The Horse cannot possibly distinguish between 10 slaps or 20 . so either whip or no whip is the ONLY answer. regarding horse welfare, and public perception of racing. That's the key question Gammalite. I know we have had our differences of opinion but I agree with you 100%. It is either allow a whip or no whip. My research and opinion is that there is no evidence that using a whip is any worse that racing a horse over a distance at a speed it is not designed for. I know this will upset a few but it is no different to putting blinkers (blindfold) on a horse. I'd accept banning the whip if you banned blinkers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 48 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Even though technically an apt description, This really LAPS OVER into the 'trying to Win' territory. In a race , jockeys and drivers (harness) are Paid to try and win that race. The punting public, The Stewards, everyone ....... DEMAND that you do your best to obtain the Best possible finishing position. Often you are Scrapping that hard you break the racing rules , pushing out, cutting off, squeeeeezing everything you can from your mount, (as Opie did with the case in hand) Not EVER ONCE did I think I was 'cheating'. You ride the boundaries of infringement in any sport (cycling ,etc) to Obtain the Best Possible Result. In Racing, your description to me fits the calculated 'Preplanned 'attempts at best position. i.e administering illegal substances, etc and also calculated 'Preplanned 'attempts to not try (as in a fixed race punt , etc) The Horse cannot possibly distinguish between 10 slaps or 20 . so either whip or no whip is the ONLY answer. regarding horse welfare, and public perception of racing. Why do jockeys have to learn to count ??? So to not be a cheat ??? what a lot of rubbish. poor opie. quite inappropriate i reckon. great ride ! 5 strikes prior to the 100m...? Not consecutive strides...? How hard is that? Opie may not be the brightest light on the candleabra but he's got five fingers on each hand..he's got a choice🤪, pick either one...i don't believe for a moment that its that hard to count to 5. But if thats your argument then fine. I don't accept it. Lets see how the riu handle this scenario in the near future? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 11 minutes ago, Horace said: 5 strikes prior to the 100m...? Not consecutive strides...? How hard is that? Opie may not be the brightest light on the candleabra but he's got five fingers on each hand..he's got a choice🤪, pick either one...i don't believe for a moment that its that hard to count to 5. But if thats your argument then fine. I don't accept it. Lets see how the riu handle this scenario in the near future? That's not the point. Freda I notice you agree so what is your view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 15 minutes ago, Horace said: Lets see how the riu handle this scenario in the near future? Well they can only "handle it" under the current rules and penalties. Until they change you can't expect the RIU to treat it differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 41 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: That's the key question Gammalite. I know we have had our differences of opinion but I agree with you 100%. It is either allow a whip or no whip. My research and opinion is that there is no evidence that using a whip is any worse that racing a horse over a distance at a speed it is not designed for. I know this will upset a few but it is no different to putting blinkers (blindfold) on a horse. I'd accept banning the whip if you banned blinkers. Well some have said here the Punter is most important, and animal welfare too, I admire that. and as a Punter I was very impressed with Opie getting that runner home at Ellerslie. Yes he broke a current rule (and was punished according to current protocol) and Thomass has it as the crime of the century. He was trying to win the race.. and Did too. Some are screaming DISQUALIFY , jockey not counting properly. What if ANOTHER jockey had 6 slaps before the 100m peg ?? same charge? disqualify too ? 7 minutes ago, Horace said: 5 strikes prior to the 100m...? Not consecutive strides...? How hard is that? Opie may not be the brightest light on the candleabra but he's got five fingers on each hand..he's got a choice🤪, pick either one...i don't believe for a moment that its that hard to count to 5. But if thats your argument then fine. I don't accept it. Lets see how the riu handle this scenario in the near future? ye old horse come back to scale , feeling no different , than any others in the race. Saying one is punished more than another because of a few more whip strikes? They can't count. so makes no difference if jockeys DO count. Who are you trying to please ? yourself , the horse or the punter? (Punters were HAPPY , the 3-1 ON shot Amarelinha won R8 Ellerslie!! excellent result for them) The horse not happy anyway 5, 10, 15 , 20? a whipping is a whipping ??? Chief says throwing it away is giving in to the activists. (looking to ban racing altogeather) I think Not the case , as throwing whips away can only lift racing perception , and we can all demonstrate to the newbies what an exciting product it is. without the whip even causing all these problems. Might need more Blinkers instead Chief lol......... Fancy race winning champion jockeys getting called cheats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Just now, Gammalite said: What if ANOTHER jockey had 6 slaps before the 100m peg ?? same charge? disqualify too ? 19 minutes ago, Horace said: one did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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