Thomass Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: So you backed Needle and Thread? You are saying Bosson cheated to win because the Stipes said so. Yet any unbiased person be they a racing enthusiast or not would look at that head on shot and say they couldn't see any difference between both Jockey's ride over the last 150m. Define "thrashing"? Define "excessive"? Excessive is what is in the rule book but what does it mean? In my opinion "thrashing" is when a poor Jockey whips the shyte out of a horse that has given everything it has. Everyone who has followed Bosson's career knows he isn't one of those types of Jockey's. We wait for your definitions. Thrashing and Excessive is definitely 23 strikes up the straight mate.... Consequtive strikes before the 100M gives a horse further momentum gain before Opee's thrashing with force inside the 100M... Its called CHEATING to gain Black Type.... Like he did with IN A TWINKLING in the Puke Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 51 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: As per the penalty guidelines with regard to minimums. My point being he NEVER rides at Gay Gorrrre or Ashburton... ...once in a Blue moon when he's goes to Gorrrre for a country ho down maybe... So one Northern day and a piddling fine paid for by Guerins law..."I'll pay my Jockeys fine being a punter" #integritynzstyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Just now, Thomass said: Thrashing and Excessive is definitely 23 strikes up the straight mate.... So 22, 21, 20, 18? Or the 15 in the last 100m which is allowed? 1 minute ago, Thomass said: Consequtive strikes before the 100M gives a horse further momentum gain before Opee's thrashing with force inside the 100M... Made no difference to the result. Needle and Thread covered heaps less ground and over the last 100m was hit as much. 2 minutes ago, Thomass said: Its called CHEATING to gain Black Type.... No it is playing to the rules and getting the most out of your horse to WIN! Winning is the objective. I will say that categorically NO horse was disadvantaged and they ALL performed to their capability on the day given track conditions and runs in the race. The winner had the toughest run and still won! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Of course no one has mentioned the irony out the same race - the Sunline Vase. Lisa Allpress got a warning of "her obligation to ride her mounts out fully to the end of the race when circumstances permit her to do so." If she had done that would that be called "thrashing"? She rode Spine Tingle which finished 6.8 lengths from the winner in 7th place! That Idiot wind's blowing hard today... They're obviously not expecting 24/7 whip use when "riding mounts out" FFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Thomass said: My point being he NEVER rides at Gay Gorrrre or Ashburton... ...once in a Blue moon when he's goes to Gorrrre for a country ho down maybe... So one Northern day and a piddling fine paid for by Guerins law..."I'll pay my Jockeys fine being a punter" #integritynzstyle Irrelevant - the rules are the rules and the penalties are the same for everyone. I wouldn't put a Jockey up on any horse I owned in major race who wasn't willing to play the grey area if required. The top liners make value judgements based on what they have underneath them. If Bosson didn't think the horse had more to give he wouldn't have gone into that grey area of what is "excessive". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Thomass said: That Idiot wind's blowing hard today... They're obviously not expecting 24/7 whip use when "riding mounts out" FFS What ARE they expecting? Would be great to hear your EXPERT opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Irrelevant - the rules are the rules and the penalties are the same for everyone. I wouldn't put a Jockey up on any horse I owned in major race who wasn't willing to play the grey area if required. The top liners make value judgements based on what they have underneath them. If Bosson didn't think the horse had more to give he wouldn't have gone into that grey area of what is "excessive". It's quite straightforward. The nztr guidelines are that prior to the 100m a rider can strike the horse 5 times, not in consecutive strides. From the 100m to the finish there is no restriction PROVIDING that the horse is not beaten already and is in a position to keep or improve its' placing, or is clearly winning. ( And thats where the guidelines are ridiculous imho, just opens it up to the bashers and we see it all the time..even when horses are clearly winning, as per Bosson on Avantage at Te Rapa in the BCD sprint..clearly winning, 3 lengths clear and he hits it at least 10 times..not a word from oathum). For your information chief, ' excessive' is defined quite simply as ...' too much'. As per Bosson on Saturday, clearly 'too much', thats why the stipes had to charge him, he pleaded guilty so he clearly accepted his whip use was 'excessive'. The difference with Opie, unfortunately, is that he is in the twilight of his career and is hell bent on making as much money as he can and it is definitely showing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 On 7/03/2021 at 9:31 PM, nomates said: Looked to me he only hit behind the saddle every 4 strides till the last hundred , only once behind before the 200 , twice more between the 200 and the 100 and only 7 times behind the saddle in total , 4 of those in the last 100 . Can't compare it to OB today . Quite agree. Would be well within today's NZ rules. I remember that ride at Belmont. All apprentices should watch it. Lester in his twilight years and master trainer Vincent O'Brien at work with a very good horse. Only hit the horse 3 or 4 times before the 100. Travelled 3 wide the whole way too for those who think that makes a difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 At least cheating Opee didn't do a 'Lester' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 3 hours ago, curious said: Quite agree. Would be well within today's NZ rules. I remember that ride at Belmont. All apprentices should watch it. Lester in his twilight years and master trainer Vincent O'Brien at work with a very good horse. Only hit the horse 3 or 4 times before the 100. Travelled 3 wide the whole way too for those who think that makes a difference. Look at the length of the whip and leverage he gets from his swing. Damn sight more force in his whipping than anything we saw on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 When I showed Lester around the farm on his visit all those years ago.... I asked him to show me the length of the longer weapon he was allowed to use... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 16 minutes ago, Thomass said: When I showed Lester around the farm on his visit all those years ago.... Yeah I know who would have done all the talking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Look at the length of the whip and leverage he gets from his swing. Damn sight more force in his whipping than anything we saw on Saturday. It was a masterclass. Watch him balance the horse up, wait till he gets him organised and it changes legs and gets balanced up, give him one to say lets go now and 2 or 3 more the last 100. Classic ride. Edited March 8, 2021 by curious 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Thomass said: When I showed Lester around the farm on his visit all those years ago.... I asked him to show me the length of the longer weapon he was allowed to use... When racing was great . The beauty about that win on AC was everyone said the horse couldn't stay 2000 , but a master class in patience and balance was just enough . If i remember rightly he also one the 2yo race on top filly Yir Tiz , dam of Mr Tiz , one of our top riders gave up the ride so Piggott could ride her . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Look at the length of the whip and leverage he gets from his swing. Damn sight more force in his whipping than anything we saw on Saturday. Whips were a different weapon to the one they carry now . the old ones had a sting . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, curious said: It was a masterclass. Watch him balance the horse up, wait till he gets him organised and it changes legs and gets balanced up, give him one to say lets go now and 2 or 3 more the last 100. Classic ride. Yep, brilliant. Notice also how he used to apply the persuader right over the top of the rump...not chopping them in the flanks like so many do today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 12 minutes ago, Freda said: Yep, brilliant. Notice also how he used to apply the persuader right over the top of the rump...not chopping them in the flanks like so many do today. Is the rump more sensitive than the flanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Is the rump more sensitive than the flanks? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Is the rump more sensitive than the flanks? People watching horse racing ( on TV ) are most likely unaware of the distinction. It is the visual aspect of striking the horse that is causing this issue to become a major one. Even waving the whip as some do draws criticism. Whether we like it or not as industry participants, this is the reason for guidelines surrounding whip useage are becoming more and more stringent. I liken it in a way to the ' black lives matter' supporters. Noise made becomes deafening, even if it is 'unjustified' or ;over the top'. We just have to live with it and racing jurisdictions around the World are, or will be, adapting these new practices when it comes to the use of whips on animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, Horace said: People watching horse racing ( on TV ) are most likely unaware of the distinction. It is the visual aspect of striking the horse that is causing this issue to become a major one. Even waving the whip as some do draws criticism. Whether we like it or not as industry participants, this is the reason for guidelines surrounding whip useage are becoming more and more stringent. I liken it in a way to the ' black lives matter' supporters. Noise made becomes deafening, even if it is 'unjustified' or ;over the top'. We just have to live with it and racing jurisdictions around the World are, or will be, adapting these new practices when it comes to the use of whips on animals. In the G3 Sunline Vase AMARELINHA got there for the win because of a well calculated and a 'great balance late' ride from a leading jockey. I was watching on TV and noticed nothing of the whipping from the TV angle provided . Looked to all appearances a great jockey getting a 3-1 ON pop home with a great ride , great effort by horse, and bliss for the Punters. Of course from the head-on stewards Film you could see it all clearly. (Oppies whip use) You take the race off that WINNER, and the industry is stuffed ! I wouldn't bother anymore, and at the moment I live off the punt. Yes indeed , there's always a deafening roar made by miniority groups, sex, religion, race or politics. I guess everyone wants to be different. I do agree with examples given by yourself , and Freda , and nomates and my children about the image of racing regarding animal abuse. Only answer seems no whips. happening one day I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 7 minutes ago, Gammalite said: In the G3 Sunline Vase AMARELINHA got there for the win because of a well calculated and a 'great balance late' ride from a leading jockey. I was watching on TV and noticed nothing of the whipping from the TV angle provided . Looked to all appearances a great jockey getting a 3-1 ON pop home with a great ride , great effort by horse, and bliss for the Punters. Of course from the head-on stewards Film you could see it all clearly. (Oppies whip use) You take the race off that WINNER, and the industry is stuffed ! I wouldn't bother anymore, and at the moment I live off the punt. Yes indeed , there's always a deafening roar made by miniority groups, sex, religion, race or politics. I guess everyone wants to be different. I do agree with examples given by yourself , and Freda , and nomates and my children about the image of racing regarding animal abuse. Only answer seems no whips. happening one day I guess. I get what you are saying , i myself am not against the whip , but there has to be moderation . I myself have 40+ years of hands on with gallopers and i find myself reflecting on how much i might have treated my horses purely as commodities , through financial neccesity for sure but possibly i could have shown more empathy for the horses . I know that wilst i gained financially from the sale of horses to asia i do now feel some angst over the lifestyle and post racing life's they got . Over the last few years i had the pleasure of having a couple of horses with real character and the most beautiful natures which never stopped them being genuine and giving their utmost , and i find on looking back that maybe with more mature eyes i stopped looking at them as a means of possibly making money and started to enjoy them as mates . I know the mare in particular would have needed very little whip persuading to give her utmost and so i find myself more regularly viewing abuse of the whip , or the use when a horse is beaten with a degree of cringe . Maybe i am just going too soft as i approach 60 . I believe that certain level of whip use is required , finding the happy medium is going to be debate . But whilst we may find that happy medium i know the mad hatters will never be happy with whatever solution is found however mild it might appear to the hardened horseman . So we have to find a level that we know can achieve the required lift in effort , whilst knowing not perfect for either end of the argument , there will be a sense of balance that we a least can live with . To do nothing is not a solution , we must move towards a more society friendly image , if we want to bring new owners into the industry from the younger generations . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 14 minutes ago, nomates said: I get what you are saying , i myself am not against the whip , but there has to be moderation . I myself have 40+ years of hands on with gallopers and i find myself reflecting on how much i might have treated my horses purely as commodities , through financial neccesity for sure but possibly i could have shown more empathy for the horses . I know that wilst i gained financially from the sale of horses to asia i do now feel some angst over the lifestyle and post racing life's they got . Over the last few years i had the pleasure of having a couple of horses with real character and the most beautiful natures which never stopped them being genuine and giving their utmost , and i find on looking back that maybe with more mature eyes i stopped looking at them as a means of possibly making money and started to enjoy them as mates . I know the mare in particular would have needed very little whip persuading to give her utmost and so i find myself more regularly viewing abuse of the whip , or the use when a horse is beaten with a degree of cringe . Maybe i am just going too soft as i approach 60 . I believe that certain level of whip use is required , finding the happy medium is going to be debate . But whilst we may find that happy medium i know the mad hatters will never be happy with whatever solution is found however mild it might appear to the hardened horseman . So we have to find a level that we know can achieve the required lift in effort , whilst knowing not perfect for either end of the argument , there will be a sense of balance that we a least can live with . To do nothing is not a solution , we must move towards a more society friendly image , if we want to bring new owners into the industry from the younger generations . Very well put Nomates, and I would be certain with your years of experience you had/ have total empathy where required for your horses and indeed still show these days , for all current horses. The 'public perception climate' regarding the debate for horses welfare is paramount for the racing industry. as you have argued and quite correctly too, as many young folk don't have the horse knowledge you or I do. Thomass is 100% for horse welfare, you Chief and I know horses are looked after like Kings horses, when in training generally, and fed, brushed , treated, excercised and anything we can do for their welfare is Important. Alas at the END of a Race they find a few moments of 'hardship' as Flat to the boards, Peddle to the metal, engine screaming at highest revs possible ...... to get a result and Win That Race. Public SEE the finish of a race , so to me Total Hits is a FALLACY. they just see a whip, The horse just sees a whip. They're not counting strikes like Stewards, jockeys or us. So they can fiddle with these whip strike numbers like Thomass has through this thread (and get nowhere) , OR we just throw it out and move on. I guess horses that need more than Hands and Heals at the end of a race will have to move on too. Such a tough one ??? the horse Gammalite had 16 Group 1 wins and 94 wins. would of been only a fraction of that without a whip. probably No group 1' wins at all. I know you and Horace have said , yeah still carry whip , but How Will that Change Public Perception? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 And therein lies the conundrum , the public , and their lack of understanding that horses are highly inteligent animals , and as such are individuals , so individual that what works for one won't work for the next one hundred . That's where we as supposed experts try all sorts of gear adjustments to try and get the best effort from our horses . We know they are not just dumb animals , whereas a large proportion of society would put them alongside sheep and cattle for brains , and i am sure just see the whip as a means of bashing a dumb animal . My pet hope is that one day i get the oppertunity to get to know one of the supposed " animal rights " activists and get to find out what they get up to in their lives so that i may possibly go " you know what , i don't like that you partake of that something in your life that gives you pleasure , so i am now going to do my utmost to stop you doing it ", Petty i know , but i hate others who think they know better and therefor think they have a right to impose their will . 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Horace said: People watching horse racing ( on TV ) are most likely unaware of the distinction. It is the visual aspect of striking the horse that is causing this issue to become a major one. Even waving the whip as some do draws criticism. Whether we like it or not as industry participants, this is the reason for guidelines surrounding whip useage are becoming more and more stringent. I liken it in a way to the ' black lives matter' supporters. Noise made becomes deafening, even if it is 'unjustified' or ;over the top'. We just have to live with it and racing jurisdictions around the World are, or will be, adapting these new practices when it comes to the use of whips on animals. Where is the evidence of this "defening noise of protest"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Where is the evidence of this "defening noise of protest"? They still all have to kneel at the beginning of every EPL football match (watched by millions) so that is pretty loud. I'm hoping that Doesn't Have to happen in AFL next week. I must say that I KNOW that some need a little whip use towards the end of a race. (Thomass even knows that but won't admit it. I used a whip every race I was in. You don't run anywhere by just hoping , althought that would be nice. Full points to Oppie from me, employed and paid to try and win the race , And he did !! then punished hahahah. Likewise as Thomass and Nomates says , the Horses feel the 'consequences' of this trying to win. AND the public sees the whip being used whether 10, 20, or 30 times . WTF!! horses can't count , nor can public Just Stipes and jockeys, and BOAY (lol) either have whip or not , I'm happy either way. Horses don't HOLD GRUDGES , lol...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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