Gammalite Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 19 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Doesn't mean it's right. In fact I would say it is a reflection of poor training and education. Plus a need to get earning money as soon as you can. Often a gear addition is to remedy a problem that hides another problem - a lugging/boring pole is a classic example. "If a plain pole doesn't work then put a pricker on it".... I think you are wrong Chief, only because these gear additions are nothing to do with poor training and education , and what's money got to do with it. Some experienced horsepeople out there you know? Here's the Great One himself Gammalite, 'Sporting a lugging Pole " at Addington before running a place in NZ CUP i think. Just like Blinkers ,some bits of gear help get the BEST OUT OF YOUR Horse, concentration, mental toughness ,so that you have the edge to Win. p.s the very best current QLD horse COLT THIRTY ONE (81 starts 46 wins) wears a Lugging pole and shadow roll, and Grant is best trainer we have ever add, No poor training or education involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 20 minutes ago, Gammalite said: I think you are wrong Chief, only because these gear additions are nothing to do with poor training and education , and what's money got to do with it. Some experienced horsepeople out there you know? Gear additions are to correct a problem. To fix the core problem takes time - time = money. If a horse of ours starting hanging all of a sudden we would look for a reason why. Was it sore? Were there problems with its teeth? Putting a boring pole on with a pricker on it just distracted the horse from one pain to another. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 37 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Gear additions are to correct a problem. To fix the core problem takes time - time = money. If a horse of ours starting hanging all of a sudden we would look for a reason why. Was it sore? Were there problems with its teeth? Putting a boring pole on with a pricker on it just distracted the horse from one pain to another. Any trainer of horses can soon work out if a horse is sore or needs it's teeth rasped Chief. Gear additions like Blinkers , Lugging polls (Deafeners aren't correcting anything, well sort of are I spose stopping your horse from getting stirred up and Pulling hard) but are removable so you can stir your horse up the last bit these days lol. reverse correction ? lol. Things to HELP YOU WIN the Race . Here is My LIGHTNING BLUE ,the fastest I have driven, winning a trial at Addington , complete with Pole and Burr !. beating an Aus great in Bag Limit and Vinnie Knight prior to 1987 Interdominion. (biggest plum there is) Lightning Blue, Colt Thirty One , and Gammalite are all Stallions , ALL completely sound through Long careers, but prone to looking around, and Losing concentration , WINKERS would of been great, but Boring /lugging Pole an ample 'distraction' as you called it as well . NO PAIN involved, Chief . concentration and Mental Training is involved. and didn't it get results ! P.S Lightning Blue went on and won this Interdominion Final at 50-1, then came back to Christchurch later in the year and won the NEW ZEALAND TROTTING CUP. still wearing that magnificent Pole too . Bless it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Any trainer of horses can soon work out if a horse is sore or needs it's teeth rasped Chief. Gear additions like Blinkers , Lugging polls (Deafeners aren't correcting anything, well sort of are I spose stopping your horse from getting stirred up and Pulling hard) but are removable so you can stir your horse up the last bit these days lol. reverse correction ? lol. Things to HELP YOU WIN the Race . Here is My LIGHTNING BLUE ,the fastest I have driven, winning a trial at Addington , complete with Pole and Burr !. beating an Aus great in Bag Limit and Vinnie Knight prior to 1987 Interdominion. (biggest plum there is) Lightning Blue, Colt Thirty One , and Gammalite are all Stallions , ALL completely sound through Long careers, but prone to looking around, and Losing concentration , WINKERS would of been great, but Boring /lugging Pole an ample 'distraction' as you called it as well . NO PAIN involved, Chief . concentration and Mental Training is involved. and didn't it get results ! P.S Lightning Blue went on and won this Interdominion Final at 50-1, then came back to Christchurch later in the year and won the NEW ZEALAND TROTTING CUP. still wearing that magnificent Pole too . Bless it. So if the horse on the inside had been wearing a pole it would have won? What was the pole actually doing? Explain that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: So if the horse on the inside had been wearing a pole it would have won? What was the pole actually doing? Explain that. Bag Limit (horse on inside ) sadly went sore and was scratched from the Interdominion Final after easily winning his 2 heats. That ironically gave the 1st Emergency in the final a start . who was MY Lightning Blue !!! who then won. Amazing turn of events. I did say about the pole Chief (in the high-lighted bits previous post) those 3 great stallions, even though 3 of the best ever been in Australasia, they can lose Concentration , gawk around, so just like removable deafeners or a whip even , the poles are 'AIDING the Driver' to get the best result possible, at the end of a race. And it worked with those three Champions of the track. near 200 wins between them. just like Winkers work on some horses too. Melody Belle has one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Bag Limit (horse on inside ) sadly went sore and was scratched So that's why he was hanging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, Gammalite said: just like Winkers work on some horses too. Melody Belle has one? I don't believe they make any difference. She wouldn't go through the gap last start when asked with them on. She likes to be in clear air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Just now, Chief Stipe said: I don't believe they make any difference. She wouldn't go through the gap last start when asked with them on. She likes to be in clear air. Fair call. Trainers do tend to pop them on and off (mental training lol) Richards is doing a good job and knows whats best I guess. as with Waterhouse. It's a constant battle to have the win edge . doesn't always work . but try things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: So that's why he was hanging? Bag Limit is the horse , without the pole running second in that photo? Is he hanging in it? could be slightly actually if looking closer. Had a on-going fetlock problem. Vinnie trained horses Very Very hard, POPULAR ALM broke a bone in a hind hoof once which is very unusual. Slow motion replays of the horse in Full flight, actually showed the horse would thrust with each hoof individually, thus giving him the speed that made him near the greatest ever . (as opposed to the regular sway 2 leg action , side to side , a Pacer has) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Fair call. Trainers do tend to pop them on and off (mental training lol) Richards is doing a good job and knows whats best I guess. as with Waterhouse. It's a constant battle to have the win edge . doesn't always work . but try things. Richards has access to the best cattle in NZ. That is a big leg up. I'm not knocking him or Te Akau but it helps when you buy the best bred best conformed horses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Richards has access to the best cattle in NZ. That is a big leg up. I'm not knocking him or Te Akau but it helps when you buy the best bred best conformed horses. There has been plenty of trainers who have had access to well bred horses and not been able achieve the sustained success you would expect with this level of " cattle " . Richards is setting records and achieving heights unseen in this country . I have no doubt that he will succeed when he moves on from TA . Which he will , he will want to challange himself . Having the cattle and fulfilling that potential is the key . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 1 hour ago, nomates said: There has been plenty of trainers who have had access to well bred horses and not been able achieve the sustained success you would expect with this level of " cattle " . Richards is setting records and achieving heights unseen in this country . I have no doubt that he will succeed when he moves on from TA . Which he will , he will want to challange himself . Having the cattle and fulfilling that potential is the key . It's certainly going to be an interesting scenario to watch unfold and I must admit I look forward to seeing it, though I still think NZ racing is so weak and that stable so dominant in every single facet of the sport the results are somewhat amplified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 17 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I don't believe they make any difference. She wouldn't go through the gap last start when asked with them on. She likes to be in clear air. Trainer Jamie Richards was pleased with the hit out for the reigning New Zealand Horse of the Year Melody Belle, given she was racing without blinkers and was having just her second public appearance since returning from her Melbourne Spring campaign. She trialled well. They went a decent clip and she was out of her comfort zone without the hood on,” Richards said. Seriously...let this b/s go... "I don't believe" you know much about this topic when you suggest they're badly trained/broken in... Jammie and Muzza Baker are MASSIVE users of Blinkers.... Are you saying their breakers are useless or their training? Pffffft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 55 minutes ago, Thomass said: Jammie and Muzza Baker are MASSIVE users of Blinkers.... Are you saying their breakers are useless or their training? Once again no quantitative evidence but a subjective term "MASSIVE".....what % of their horses wear blinkers? If their breakers are producing horses that require "extra" equipment more than other horse breakers then perhaps they should be reviewed. Or the same if their "pre-trainers" are producing horses that require more head gear than others relative to success rate. Once again you miss the points being made. One - there isn't time to re-train a horse once it starts a racing campaign. If the addition of head gear works then it is the easy option. Second - there is no licensing, quality controls nor code of practice for horse breakers and pre-trainers. All that aside you still haven't told us BEFORE a race how to determine if the addition of new head gear is going to make the horse go faster and WIN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Gear changes explained: Advice for punters from three G1-winning stables Representatives from three Group One-winning stables offered us some professional insights into gear changes, and how to approach them from a punting perspective. Adjustments to gear are sometimes dismissed as peripheral information to form, barrier number, or jockey but the reality is that they can be crucial in gaining that extra length or two. We spoke with 2014 Queensland Derby-winning trainer Henry Dwyer, leading Queensland trainer Tony Gollan, and Chris Waller's racing manager Liam Prior. Gollan is leading the Queensland Metro Trainer Premiership by some 21 wins, while the Waller stable are 42 clear of their nearest rival in the New South Wales Premiership. Q1: Which gear change/s have you found to be most effective in getting the best out of a horse? LP: I don't think you can generalise when it comes to gear adjustments. For instance, a tongue tie on a horse that chokes down or even has a slight wind issue can be very effective. Blinkers are an obvious one but they need to be applied carefully so not to backfire and cause a horse to over-race. Generally, I find removing a piece of gear can be a good indicator, especially gear such as ear muffs or pacifiers. These are used to relax a horse and generally when these come off it means a horse is relaxing in its races and doing the right thing. It is only subtle and doesn't have the same "fire up" traits that blinkers can give a horse. HD: Traditionally blinkers have the biggest impact on a horse's performance. A typically lazy, laid back horse can improve many lengths with their addition - they seem to stimulate a horse's natural flight response by blocking their peripheral vision and making them guess what's coming behind them rather than see it for themselves. Winkers are also handy for the same reason but allow slightly more vision to the sides, and are better for horses that may overdo it a bit in blinkers but still need switching on a bit. Visors can be okay at times too, which are slightly different to blinkers in there's a slit cut out of each cup allowing the horse a small bit of rearward vision. Not sure on the theory but they can be okay on horses that can tend to miss the start in blinkers. TG: Blinkers are the obvious one. Going from a horse with no gear that is not quite concentrating to applying a set of blinkers can really sharpen them up and result in significant improvement. For example, he's not one of mine, but the addition of blinkers (first time) to Kuro last time really brought out the best in the horse after a lacklustre run in Sydney at the start prior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 17 hours ago, Huey said: It's certainly going to be an interesting scenario to watch unfold and I must admit I look forward to seeing it, though I still think NZ racing is so weak and that stable so dominant in every single facet of the sport the results are somewhat amplified. Whilst i agree about how weak our racing is now , it has been so for longer than JR has been training , and he has certainly taken TA to another level , i don't believe even D Ellis was expecting the level of success that JR has taken them to . 3 months faster getting to 100 winners than ever before , now sitting on 40 G1's , already 8mil + in stakes for the season . There has been some big and very successful stables in NZ and they haven't achieved this level of success . Even when stakes were better . As for the having the " cattle " argument , well , Ellis doesn't get every horse he wants and in fact a large proportion of success is from the smaller purchases , Melody Belle , On The Bubbles . Even horses like Brando and Arhilamina weren't at the very top end of the market . Don't get me wrong , i think the TA business model works purely and simply for TA , and owners are just hoping/gambling they get into a good one , but aren't we all . TA has had a lot of spectacular failures from their sales purchases , and we don't really hear about those , but then that is the nature of the game . I know my list of failures is much longer than the successes , and i try not to think about them if i can . However as for JR , i do believe we are seeing a young man of extraordinary training ability and will be watching him being successful for many years to come . The only down side for him tho as my wife says , he's 31 looking 50 , but that comes with the territory i suppose . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Once again no quantitative evidence but a subjective term "MASSIVE".....what % of their horses wear blinkers? If their breakers are producing horses that require "extra" equipment more than other horse breakers then perhaps they should be reviewed. Or the same if their "pre-trainers" are producing horses that require more head gear than others relative to success rate. Once again you miss the points being made. One - there isn't time to re-train a horse once it starts a racing campaign. If the addition of head gear works then it is the easy option. Second - there is no licensing, quality controls nor code of practice for horse breakers and pre-trainers. All that aside you still haven't told us BEFORE a race how to determine if the addition of new head gear is going to make the horse go faster and WIN! No I get the 'point' extremely well... Your incredibly stupid'idea' that breakers/pre Trainers are responsible for horses needing a hood is BATSHIT CRAZY Were talking ACTUAL 100% genuine HORSEMEN here v you A NON Horseman at his pc wearing a soiled singlet and y fronts... talking horse shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, Thomass said: Your incredibly stupid'idea' that breakers/pre Trainers are responsible for horses needing a hood is BATSHIT CRAZY I didn't actually say that. If you were actually following the discussion rather than being blinded by your BATSHIT CRAZY need to justify your equally BATSHT CRAZY betting blueprint you would understand that my view is that head gear is only required to modify a behavioural/mental condition to try and get an optimal outcome - racing wise (horses don't need blinkers when they are stabled). They don't improve a horse's ability. My view is that that behavioural/mental condition is either a trained or learned behaviour and that because of that it can be trained out or unlearned. But that requires time and it is easier to slap some gear and limit the horses vision from 180 degrees to 30 degrees to alleviate the problem than it is to train them to do something. How many trainers with a talented horse early in its career are willing to do a few extra trials or tell a Jockey to deliberately restrain the horse to teach it to relax? 20 minutes ago, Thomass said: Were talking ACTUAL 100% genuine HORSEMEN here v you And YOU. 21 minutes ago, Thomass said: A NON Horseman at his pc wearing a soiled singlet and y fronts... talking horse shit Who is the non horseman here? Me or YOU or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 How many horses wore blinkers or any other head gear in this Cox Plate? Note: Under today's rules Gary Phillips would have been given 2 months off and a fine of about $60k for whip use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Or what about this race? Surely one of the best ever sprint line ups ever! Which horse wore blinkers? Any horses scared of going for the gap? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Excuse me for getting a bit off topic but that 1977 Easter Handicap - wow! Do we actually have an Easter Handicap at Easter now? Grey Way first carried 60.5kg. Behind him: Tudor Light, Kiwi Can, Vice Regal, Shifnal's Pride, Soliloquy, Patronise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Excuse me for getting a bit off topic but that 1977 Easter Handicap - wow! Do we actually have an Easter Handicap at Easter now? Grey Way first carried 60.5kg. Behind him: Tudor Light, Kiwi Can, Vice Regal, Shifnal's Pride, Soliloquy, Patronise. STOP IT !!! Your getting me all misty . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Behind him: Tudor Light, Kiwi Can, Vice Regal, Shifnal's Pride, Soliloquy, Patronise. Wow what a line up , not just those you mention , every runner a very good horse , i would suggest nearly all that field could win a G1 now . And what about the great Syd Tonks , marvelous to hear his commentary , certainly a golden age of NZ racing , won't be seen again , but if we could just get back to 50% of that i would take it . 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, nomates said: Wow what a line up , not just those you mention , every runner a very good horse , i would suggest nearly all that field could win a G1 now . And what about the great Syd Tonks , marvelous to hear his commentary , certainly a golden age of NZ racing , won't be seen again , but if we could just get back to 50% of that i would take it . I think we have lost our way somewhat. Is the new generation of trainer better than the previous? Interesting how the best still have a direct link to being stockmen. We are also chasing our tail instead of getting back to basics. All those horses were in the 1977 Great Easter on their merits. They could carry weight regardless of age or sex. The mares that competed in those races were tough and that carried through in their breeding. Why penalise the tough old gelding that helped to make our racing and breed the best? The don't need favours just fairness. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I think we have lost our way somewhat. Ha , Livingston had more idea of what direction he was going in than NZTR has . " Somewhat " slightly underestimates our plight and lack of direction . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.