This could just as easily been Riccarton yesteday - Masterton RC @ Tauherenikau ABANDONED after fall in first race.

[Chief Stipe]

Masterton RC @ Tauherenikau abandoned due to unsafe track conditions after a fall in Race 1: FASTTRACK INSURANCE R65/EQUIVETS NZ 1000M.

[Chief Stipe]

Does anyone know how Danielle is?

[curious]

what happened?

 

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, curious said:

what happened?

 

Hard to tell but looks like her horse may have slipped just before the turn.

 

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Does anyone know how Danielle is?

She's fine apparently. 

[Reefton]

'Could just as easily have been Riccarton yesterday'

It must be dead set effing miracle that there weren't jockeys getting killed all over the show back in the seventies and early eighties. 

Miraculous! Astonishing!  Beyond belief that there are not a hundred jockey's headstones about the place

Because as I remember there were tracks that were (rock)hard and fast all over the show in those days.

[Chief Stipe]

44 minutes ago, Reefton said:

'Could just as easily have been Riccarton yesterday'

It must be dead set effing miracle that there weren't jockeys getting killed all over the show back in the seventies and early eighties. 

Miraculous! Astonishing!  Beyond belief that there are not a hundred jockey's headstones about the place

Because as I remember there were tracks that were (rock)hard and fast all over the show in those days.

But they weren't slippery Reefton when hard and when it rained the water soaked evenly into soil and the grass still grew.

What you see now is 30-50 years of no track turf renovation and very little maintenance.  I bet most of these tracks haven't had new grass sown for over 20 years.  Geez even your Dairy Farmers don't put their cows in the same paddock week in week out.

[Pitman]

Chief stipe

You talk some shyte

The races were put off today because the horse put its foot in a hole, the track was not slippery

Your comments about Riccarton are also wrong, again. We had some rain on Wednesday, they also irrigated on Wednesday 5mm and they irrigated Thursday 5MM and the  intention was to irrigate Friday but a broken pipe just inside the rail prevented this, thank goodness as I and others believe the racing was the fairest it has been since the first day off NZ Cup Week.

I will say it again, Riccarton is the best firm track in NZ, horses can win from anywhere, as they did yesterday.

I trust with good weather we will now get a similar surface to race on at the 10th April meeting, yesterday proving it did not need to be irrigated Friday

Five of the nine winners paid under $3.40 with another winner paying $4.40 several people I know had a very good day as I am sure many punters did. So the better supported horses did the job!! That doesn't happen that often.

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, Pitman said:

The races were put off today because the horse put its foot in a hole, the track was not slippery

Ah!  Thanks for that.  As I said I wasn't sure why.  So an uneven surface like Riccarton.  Even more similarities.  Couldn't they fill in the hole?

 

31 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Your comments about Riccarton are also wrong, again. We had some rain on Wednesday, they also irrigated on Wednesday 5mm and they irrigated Thursday 5MM and the  intention was to irrigate Friday but a broken pipe just inside the rail prevented this, thank goodness as I and others believe the racing was the fairest it has been since the first day off NZ Cup Week.

 

If you were happy with that surface at Riccarton being fair and safe then as I've already posted earlier trainers expectations have slipped considerably.  The Track was a disgrace for a Premier Track and that was visible for all to see.  It was worse than your October 3 track.  The reports I have had from the track is that the grass is patchy, uneven as is the dirt where the grass isn't.

We will all be looking to April 10 with anticipation.

With regard to posting shyte I posted the meeting track news verbatim copied from the NZTR website:

MEETING NEWS

Riccarton Park - Hororata | Saturday 27 March RACE DAY

 

Race Day

Weather: Fine

Track: Good 3

Rail: True 

Weather and Track last updated at 6.22am Saturday 27 March

 

Friday Afternoon

Weather: Fine

Track: Good 3

Rail: True | No Irrigation Will Take Place Today Due To A Burst Water Pipe

Weather and Track last updated at 3.52pm Friday 26 March

 

Friday Morning

Weather: Fine

Track: Good 3

Rail: True | No Irrigation Will Take Place Today Due To A Burst Water Pipe

Weather and Track last updated at 9.55am Friday 26 March

 

Thursday Morning

Weather: Fine

Track: Dead 4

Rail: True | 1mm rain overnight, Irrigating 5mm Today 

Weather and Track last updated at 9.01am Thursday 25 March

 

CLICK TO ENLARGE 

 

 

 

Withdrawal Morning

Weather: Overcast

Track: Good 3

Rail: True | Irrigating 5mm Today 

Weather and Track last updated at 11.27am Wednesday 24 March

 

Nomination Morning

Weather: Fine

Track: Dead 4

Rail: True 

Weather and Track last updated at 9.35am Tuesday 23 March

 

[Chief Stipe]

So Pitty - you are the Premier Trainer on the Premier Track - what are the plans to fix the turf?  You must be privy to that information and surely have been consulted and provided input into it.

Or are you just running the irrigation program now?

[Pitman]

I have no input they don’t listen to me but I know others have influence, they must do the track has  been suss  since middle day of NZ Cup week

As far as irrigation goes I don’t believe they should irrigate after Wednesday for Saturday so I certainly don’t have any influence there do I !!!!

Once again you prove what an idiot you are by your last comment

I certainly had nothing to do with breakage of irrigation pipe was I pleased it happened ECSTATIC would describe my thinking

[Reefton]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

But they weren't slippery Reefton when hard and when it rained the water soaked evenly into soil and the grass still grew.

What you see now is 30-50 years of no track turf renovation and very little maintenance. 

So you admit that the cancellation statistics were better before all the track renovation that has gone on?  Because the vast majority of these cancellation issues have involved tracks that have been 'renovated' and they have in general occured soon after the 'renovation'.

And I would say that you have no idea what in the way of maintenance any NZ track has had.  All you are doing by suggesting renovation is(based on history) in all likelihood creating more cancelled racedays.  The Riccarton issue is clearly caused by persistent(and - more alarmingly - inconsistent) irrigation too close to raceday.  It is simple and nobody but you seems to fail to understand it.  Certainly as Michael said the punters would have been happy there yesterday given there was only one long priced winner(six of nine paying less than $4.50).  The track ran true to expectations and I didn't notice too many connections complaining of not handling it

And stop this crap about 'dairy' farmers.  You are only proving your ignorance.  O'Malley was never dairy farmer(his son is not Peter).  Dairy farmers operate an entirely different system to drystock farmers but in either case you don't see them taking up two feet of soil when they 'renovate' a paddock.  Might have some thing to do with the fact that they pay their own bills unlike most of these courses sucking on the industry tit when they employ  'consultants' to 'renovate'(or should I say root) these tracks.

 

 

[Freda]

9 hours ago, Pitman said:

I have no input they don’t listen to me but I know others have influence, they must do the track has  been suss  since middle day of NZ Cup week

As far as irrigation goes I don’t believe they should irrigate after Wednesday for Saturday so I certainly don’t have any influence there do I !!!!

 

I'm sure there used to be a protocol/rule/law that precluded irrigation after Thursday for a Saturday...dont know if that was ever altered, or if things just slide along without consultation. 

I think Curious posted some info/comment a year or so back, about track management systems in Australia,  and Richard Freedman's thoughts about them.

Would be interesting to read that again.

From memory,  he was concerned about the practice of frequent light watering, leading to shallow root structure and tracks chipping out.

[MarkyMark]

My 5 cents.

Whilst the track at Riccarton presented better than the last couple of meetings, as the South Islands premier track, it is letting all participants down.  Prior to the last meeting, the track, its presentation and bias is completely unacceptable.  It leaves little confidence when you dont know if their is going to be a bias, or you have a firm tracker, drawn the rail, and its stuck in heavy conditions, but 5-6 lanes wider out, you have a good 3.  an exaggeration but you get my drift.  For a premier course, its not acceptable.

However what I am truly sick of, and i believe this is absolutely fucking our tracks is the constant irrigation and light watering.  We did this to copy Australia, and to try and start summer meetings on a dead track with it improving.  

Prior to this, we didnt irrigate the fuck out of our tracks, and I believe they stacked up better.  In the summer, i want a good track, not dead, let mother nature decide.  Some horses I use to race wanted a hard track.  Why we have this obsession of having to start a race meeting as dead baffles me, and seems more often than not to lead to issues with the fairness of the track.

I dont have the stats, but if i recall when i was racing horses in the 80s and 90s, when we didnt water the shit out of tracks, when tracks could be firm, it seemed racing was better.  I dont seem to recall an abundance of cancellations de to slippery conditions, tracks raced well in winter, and recovered well for summer.

 

 

[Freda]

50 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

My 5 cents.

Whilst the track at Riccarton presented better than the last couple of meetings, as the South Islands premier track, it is letting all participants down.  Prior to the last meeting, the track, its presentation and bias is completely unacceptable.  It leaves little confidence when you dont know if their is going to be a bias, or you have a firm tracker, drawn the rail, and its stuck in heavy conditions, but 5-6 lanes wider out, you have a good 3.  an exaggeration but you get my drift.  For a premier course, its not acceptable.

However what I am truly sick of, and i believe this is absolutely fucking our tracks is the constant irrigation and light watering.  We did this to copy Australia, and to try and start summer meetings on a dead track with it improving.  

Prior to this, we didnt irrigate the fuck out of our tracks, and I believe they stacked up better.  In the summer, i want a good track, not dead, let mother nature decide.  Some horses I use to race wanted a hard track.  Why we have this obsession of having to start a race meeting as dead baffles me, and seems more often than not to lead to issues with the fairness of the track.

I dont have the stats, but if i recall when i was racing horses in the 80s and 90s, when we didnt water the shit out of tracks, when tracks could be firm, it seemed racing was better.  I dont seem to recall an abundance of cancellations de to slippery conditions, tracks raced well in winter, and recovered well for summer.

 

 

Pretty much.

However, one variable that wasn't around in those days was the rules around H&S.     Now, it is just not acceptable to continue if there has been a slip.

Locally, one track that was always very questionable was Motukarara.   Horses would often slip and races abandoned.    I recall my NZ Cup runner [ Lord Gesmo ] having his preparation derailed because the races were put off after light rain, and it was generally a worry race morning what the weather might do.

Since then, the turn into the straight has been worked upon, and track presentation there in more recent times has been good.   But, it wasn't always so. 

[Freda]

6 hours ago, Reefton said:

So you admit that the cancellation statistics were better before all the track renovation that has gone on?  Because the vast majority of these cancellation issues have involved tracks that have been 'renovated' and they have in general occured soon after the 'renovation'

 

 

'Fraid you're right there.

I'm thinking Rangiora, Gore, Greymouth - just off the top of my head....Max Skelton was nearly killed at Greymouth after the ChCh  'expert' sowed grass with clover at Omoto.

Terry Moseley fell twice at the same spot - on the same day ! - at Gore, but then refused to ride at Rangiora... go figure...Rangiora was a man-made cock up....and a nice handy facility has been lost as a result.

Kumara was 'improved' and abandonments have happened since, never used to.    We went to race on pakihi, knew what we were getting, no need for any change.

[Chief Stipe]

13 hours ago, Pitman said:

I certainly had nothing to do with breakage of irrigation pipe was I pleased it happened ECSTATIC would describe my thinking

Self-interest Pitty pure and simple.

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, Reefton said:

So you admit that the cancellation statistics were better before all the track renovation that has gone on?  Because the vast majority of these cancellation issues have involved tracks that have been 'renovated' and they have in general occured soon after the 'renovation'.

So you admit that there is a problem with our track surfaces?  Of course you do as you describe Riccarton repeatedly as a "shit hole" and I assume you are not describing the members bar.

Your statistics are blatantly WRONG.  Your perception doesn't equal reality.  However that aside you keep referring to "renovated" tracks inferring that the "renovations" have stuffed them rather than acknowledging that the renovations occurred because there WAS A PROBLEM!  I assume that is at least one thing we agree on!

Your solution is God, a chisel plough and a dairy farmer.  

9 hours ago, Reefton said:

And I would say that you have no idea what in the way of maintenance any NZ track has had.  All you are doing by suggesting renovation is(based on history) in all likelihood creating more cancelled racedays.  The Riccarton issue is clearly caused by persistent(and - more alarmingly - inconsistent) irrigation too close to raceday.  It is simple and nobody but you seems to fail to understand it. 

I would say YOU have no idea about track renovation and maintenance after all you leave that up to the local dairy farmers and their chisel ploughs.  I have posted numerous times on BOAY the approach undertaken by our Ozzie neighbours particularly Victoria and NSW.  Queensland is now facing up to their underlying issues.  Victoria and NSW have scheduled regular renovation and upgrade programs for their tracks not every THIRTY years but in 10 to 15 year cycles at most.  Interspersed with annual maintenance activity which by comparison makes our "renovation" projects look no more than scratching the surface.  I've posted some of those activities on BOAY but you ignore them.

The problem at Riccarton is NOT caused by "persistent and inconsistent" irrigation.  As I keep saying that is only symptomatic of an underlying problem and that problem is simple - the SOIL IS FUCKED!  Again I've shown you the science that proves that.  But no a chisel plough will fix it.  FFS go have a look at what Melbourne and Sydney have done to their tracks!  They focused on soil profile and structure.

9 hours ago, Reefton said:

And stop this crap about 'dairy' farmers.  You are only proving your ignorance.  O'Malley was never dairy farmer(his son is not Peter).  Dairy farmers operate an entirely different system to drystock farmers but in either case you don't see them taking up two feet of soil when they 'renovate' a paddock.  Might have some thing to do with the fact that they pay their own bills unlike most of these courses sucking on the industry tit when they employ  'consultants' to 'renovate'(or should I say root) these tracks.

Oh sorry I thought dry stock and dairy cows both had four legs?

No they don't take up two feet of soil to renovate a paddock but they don't use the same paddock day in day out.  You'll also find that the best livestock land that is heavily stocked on the West Coast has the same thing in common - a soil profile that has structure.  Often that structure has been provided by a high organic content e.g. the Kokatahi valley.

To be frank it is quite depressing to thank that two of the South Island's prominent racing stakeholders think the problem is an irrigation problem and you just need a chisel plough to fix it.  

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, MarkyMark said:

However what I am truly sick of, and i believe this is absolutely fucking our tracks is the constant irrigation and light watering.  We did this to copy Australia, and to try and start summer meetings on a dead track with it improving.  

Prior to this, we didnt irrigate the fuck out of our tracks, and I believe they stacked up better.  In the summer, i want a good track, not dead, let mother nature decide.  Some horses I use to race wanted a hard track.  Why we have this obsession of having to start a race meeting as dead baffles me, and seems more often than not to lead to issues with the fairness of the track.

Again the irrigation is a symptom of an underlying cause which is a stuffed soil profile and structure.  Do you think any course in New Zealand could have run on a Soft 7 after 10 days in which 360mm of rain fell?

It was only a few weeks ago that a Metrop track in OZ put nearly an inch of irrigation on their track on the Friday and raced on a G3 perfect surface the next day!

Irrigation in NZ is being used to try and fix a problem that it isn't designed to fix and which it can't fix however it is the only tool available to keep the grass growing and to have a reasonable cushion to race on.  If you don't irrigate and keep the soil moisture content up and instead roll the dice you risk the chance of a shower of rain turning the track into a skating rink.  

Here is one for Reefton - how many race meetings have been abandoned due to NOT irrigating, a shower occurring on raceday, a horse slipping and the meeting called off?

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, MarkyMark said:

I dont have the stats, but if i recall when i was racing horses in the 80s and 90s, when we didnt water the shit out of tracks, when tracks could be firm, it seemed racing was better.  I dont seem to recall an abundance of cancellations de to slippery conditions, tracks raced well in winter, and recovered well for summer.

 

We didn't need to water them.  But the 80's was probably the peak of the useful life of our main tracks.  From that point on the decline started and that decline has accelerated as we put more and more pressure on those tracks.  We started closing tracks and shifting more and more meetings to a central location.  Look at the CD and Canterbury.  This further accelerated the decline.

Think back to the 80's and remember the tracks that were still functioning.  List them.

NZ has under invested in the key infrastructure that is the key to holding a race meeting - the race surface itself.  What has our solution been?  Let's build 3 AWT's!  Where is the plan to fix Te Rapa, Awapuni or Riccarton?  I didn't mention Trentham - it is a dead duck.

The only major metropolitan track in NZ that has a plan to fix their track is Ellerslie but they are relying on getting their hands on the Avondale dosh.

[Huey]

Te Aroha breeders to be run on AWT???

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Huey said:

Te Aroha breeders to be run on AWT???

Te Rapa.

Probably the end of Te Aroha.

[nomates]

Gobsmacked that the winner of the third was relegated , inside horse caused the mess , talking thru my pocket but i thought after watching the replay multiple times there was no way you could say the 3rd horse was going to beat the winner . All happened too close to line as well , spewing .

[nomates]

34 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Te Rapa.

Probably the end of Te Aroha.

Well their own fault , been putting little bits of irrigation on all week , not enough to allow moisture to soak thru . If these smaller clubs want to race produce the tracks or your gone .

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, nomates said:

Gobsmacked that the winner of the third was relegated , inside horse caused the mess , talking thru my pocket but i thought after watching the replay multiple times there was no way you could say the 3rd horse was going to beat the winner . All happened too close to line as well , spewing .

Just started a new thread on this Topic.  I can't understand how it was upheld either.  Bizarre!