JCA - M Kerr Decision

[the galah]

18 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Certainly wouldnt be classed as a successful one, that the NZ TAB would be scared of.

You wouldve thought that he shouldve cleaned up going by the success of his stable.

Obviously the NZ Bookies werent letting him on for much which seems like a mistake on their side!

This is exactly my continued point, that the NZ TAB should bd accepting begs from all punters as it is costing them big money!

Imagine the headlines had the nz tab accepted his bets knowing how much he was losing. They don't want punters like kerr. I wonder if he had bet on the nz tab,would they have brought the extent of his loses to harness authorities to investigate. You would hope so given he lost $1 million in 2 years.

Edited April 15, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

Imagine the headlines had the nz tab accepted his bets knowing how much he was losing. They don't want punters like kerr. I wonder if he had bet on the nz tab,would they have brought the extent of his loses to harness authorities to investigate. You would hope so.

I thought there was data sharing between the jurisdictions otherwise how does the Betting Integrity Analyst (do we still have one?) check that drivers and jockeys are not betting?  Hell if it was that easy that all you needed to have was an offshore account to bet on the races you were steering in!

That part of the story doesn't seem quite right to me.  I hope it wasn't another case of the RIU turning a blind eye hoping to find something bigger.

[Rangatira]

23 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Obviously the NZ Bookies werent letting him on for much which seems like a mistake on their side!

not obvious at all

please explain why you claim this

what facts do you have to back this up

[Chief Stipe]

Another thing that doesn't quite add up is if what we have read in the JCA judgement is 100% correct why haven't there been criminal charges laid?  

Are the Police "gun shy" after the INCA debacle?  Or are the victims of the crimes not willing to lay complaints outside the RIU/JCA system?

 

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

This is exactly my continued point, that the NZ TAB should bd accepting begs from all punters as it is costing them big money!

Exactly thought your continued point was They won't take the big bets because 'you win' so much and too much ??  and that was costing them big money. 

Do you think they should only accept Losing bets? 

 

 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Imagine the headlines had the nz tab accepted his bets knowing how much he was losing. They don't want punters like kerr. I wonder if he had bet on the nz tab,would they have brought the extent of his loses to harness authorities to investigate. You would hope so given he lost $1 million in 2 years.

Galah, the NZ TAB do want punters like Mitch!

They want losing Punters and no winning punters!

 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

not obvious at all

please explain why you claim this

what facts do you have to back this up

Because the NZ TAB always had the Mitch Kerr stable horses very short and if he was trying to punt them he wouldnt be getting much on!

[Rangatira]

5 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Because the NZ TAB always had the Mitch Kerr stable horses very short and if he was trying to punt them he wouldnt be getting much on!

didn't arcano open north of $20 on the fixed odds

[NZRacing]

 

I don't believe the RIU Betting Analyst should be regarded as an expert. A betting expert would have picked up the supposed betting activity of those involved in Operation Inca. The media were told the Police instigated Operation Inca not the RIU. A betting expert would have picked up unusual betting activity (that was reported in the media) either here in NZ or by using contacts with Australian Bookmakers who we are told they have a formal agreement with. One person was supposed to be the money man placing the bets so something should have been picked up here in his NZ Betting through the TAB or using the formal agreement with Australian Boomakers  which must include any unusual betting activity and patterns of large scale betting. 

Quote

(b) In November 2020 information had been received that the Respondent had been betting with accounts with the Australian based corporate bookmaker Ladbrokes. On 27 November 2020 Ladbrokes was (under its formal agreement with the New Zealand TAB) requested to provide betting details for the Respondent’s account for 2019 and 2020.

Once info was received in November 2020 that Kerr had lost close to $1,000,000 in two years he immediately should have had a visit from the RIU

Kerr stopped betting with the NZ TAB in 2016 so why were the three years following eg 2017-18 not included in the request. I think we can conclude he didn’t not bet during those years.

His betting activity and loss's between 2009 and 2016 with the NZ TAB should have being advised to the JCA as this would have shown if he had a problem with his gambling during that period. During those years he was a Junior Driver so any worrying betting activity would have or should have set off the alarm bells. If his betting during the period he bet with the NZ TAB was out of control and he wasn’t approached by the NZ TAB as the Gambling Act states he should have being then the NZ TAB needs to held accountable and those people he owes money to could have legal grounds to look for the NZ TAB to seek monetary recovery.

The Betting Expert states Kerr between 2009 and 2016 had opened and closed a number of accounts with the TAB. There must have being a reason for Kerr to do that and one would think the NZ TAB would seek to find out why he was doing this. Did he open and close accounts from time to time knowing his betting was out of control.  Surely a NZ TAB customer opening and closing a number of accounts with them must have raised alarm bells. Kerr’s gambling addiction didn’t just pop up in 2019 and 2020.

The evidence of facts state that dishonesty of syndicated ownership in horses in his care was between 2017 and 2020. He stopped betting with the NZ TAB in 2016. I believe Kerr’s betting levels were out of control when betting with the NZ TAB. This was conveyed to me by a couple of people involved in the Industry who personally knew Kerr. If this was indeed the case why did the NZ TAB as according to the so called Betting Expert allow Kerr to close and open numerous accounts.  

I don’t believe he was identified and dealt with as is required under the Gambling Act for measures to be taken when a betting customer is showing signs of having a gambling addiction. Once he stopped betting with the NZ TAB the RIU Betting Expert should have made contact with his Australian counterparts and bookmakers asking to be notified if this person started betting and losing large sums of money. In 2019 he lost 320k and he doubled that loss in 2020. In 2019 this so called Formal Agreement between NZ and Australian Bookmakers should have resulted in a call eg you need to follow this up as it appears one of your young trainers is betting well beyond his means.   

Why didn’t the JCA request Kerr’s NZ TAB betting account details on loss’s on each year from 2009 to 2016? If he was betting beyond his means and losing large sums each year and he wasn’t approached or had his account closed due to gambling concerns then the NZ TAB has contributed towards his demise by not handling the matter as it needs to be under the NZ Gambling Acts law relating to what is required in this type of situation.

Bookmakers and TAB’s in Australia in the past have been heavily fined and restitution had to be paid back to Companies who were badly financially impacted because one of their employees stole from them to bet with Bookmakers to lose  large amounts of money which was way out of proportion to what they were earning.   

Quote

November 28^th 2020. At the same time, the Racing Integrity Unit (RIU) has received a raft of allegations about the 28-year-old's conduct as a trainer

It looks like the RIU only requested information from Australian Betting outlets once they had received complaints about Kerr’s conduct with his owners. It’s bullshit that it took that to happen rather than Ladbrokes informing NZ Authorities that maybe this Industry person needs to be looked into. Great Formal Agreement.    

Obviously one can't condone what Kerr did to his owners but Gambling Addiction is seen to be the same as Drug addiction. Both addictions lead a person in many cases to lie,steal and commit fraud to feed these addictions. I wonder if Kerr was offered Gambling Addiction help here in NZ.

Two questions need to be answered although I have no doubt the first one is affirmative.

1. During the 7 years Kerr bet with the NZ TAB did his loss's far outweigh his means of income and if so what was each years total loss 

2. If the above did happen at what point in time was he approached by the NZ TAB as the Gambling Act required them to do in order to inform him that they have major concerns with his betting levels and loss's and offer him help for possible gambling addictions.  

If they didn't offer him help when clear signs of problem gambling was evident they were guilty of feeding his gambling addiction to the point where it finally spiraled out of control 10 years later.

 

NZ Betting Rules in part state:

(j) comply with its obligations under the Racing Act 2003 relating to problem gambling, harm prevention and minimisation. Pursuant to the Privacy Act 1993, an Account Holder has the right to view and correct personal information held by the Board. (i) Personal information may be disclosed by the Board to third parties in connection with any of the purposes stated under this rule provided that the recipient of the information is subject to an obligation of confidentiality in relation to the disclosed information.

Racing Act states:

65HRegulations relating to exclusion of problem gamblers from Agency venues and racecourses

(1)The Governor-General may, by Order in Council, make regulations—

(a)prescribing 1 or more procedures to enable an Agency operator or a racing club to identify problem gamblers:

(b)prescribing procedures for prohibiting identified problem gamblers from entering a Agency venue or racecourse:

(c)prescribing procedures for removing a person who an Agency operator or a racing club has reasonable grounds to believe is a problem gambler:

(d)ensuring that access to Agency venues and racecourses by identified problem gamblers is restricted:

(e)prescribing 1 or more procedures that must be completed by a problem gambler as a condition of re-entry to a Agency venue or racecourse.

(2)Regulations made under subsection (1) must—

(a)specify the grounds on which a person may be identified as a problem gambler:

(b)set out the steps to be taken to identify a person as a problem gambler:

(c)prescribe the persons (including the qualifications of those persons) who are authorised to perform specific functions in relation to identifying and excluding problem gamblers:

(d)set out the rights, including the rights of appeal against specified decisions, of a person who is subject to the procedure.

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

FFS! Ranga it should’ve been more than $20!!

You need to change your non-de-plume to PEDANTIC!

they are just your lies i continue to point out

[Chief Stipe]

Great post @NZRacing

Before anyone jumps up and down that I'm somehow excusing Kerr's actions I'm not.  But @NZRacing raises some very good points which should be addressed.  I sincerely hope the RIU tactic hasn't been one where they knew what was going on but took the "give'em rope" approach

We now have a situation where any hope of restitution or reparation by Kerr is impossible.  Afterall he has been disqualified from doing the only thing he is qualified to do and what he can do well.

Wouldn't one option that had the potential for better outcomes was to disqualify him for a period of time but then allow him back under strict controls and supervision where he was able to earn and pay back what he owes?  Basically a form of financial house arrest.  That isn't an unheard of approach in the "real world".  I repeat I'm not in any way condoning what Kerr has done but I'm throwing that option  out there for discussion.

[Chief Stipe]

I fail to understand how the RIU Betting Analyst or HRNZ weren't notified at some stage that a license holder was betting and losing large sums.

Surely there must be flags in the system that do data matching.  No doubt they'll quote some BS about privacy and data matching restrictions.  99% of the time that is nothing more than an excuse.

[the galah]

One thing that has been noticeable about nearly every horse that has gone from the Kerr stable to another trainer is how poorly they run for the new trainers.They all lose a leg.I have pointed out previously that you would have to be cautious if you were buying one.

[the galah]

Just read the post from nz racing. He makes some valid points,but why just focus on the tab. He points out people were aware of his problems,so why not blame them more than the tab. He's supposedly been bailed out before,so why not blame those who bailed him out without having future systems in place. Can he name one person who approached the Nz tab with their concerns about having him banned from betting. If he can,then why didn't they approach the aussie agencies? It could go on and on. Maybe this looking to blame everyone else is the reason Kerr was able to keep doing what he did for so long. Who knows,all rather sad.

[Chief Stipe]

25 minutes ago, the galah said:

One thing that has been noticeable about nearly every horse that has gone from the Kerr stable to another trainer is how poorly they run for the new trainers.They all lose a leg.I have pointed out previously that you would have to be cautious if you were buying one.

Oooohhh!  Another conspiracy theory perhaps.  

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

Can he name one person who approached the Nz tab with their concerns about having him banned from betting. If he can,then why didn't they approach the aussie agencies?

Aren't you overlooking some of the points made - for example if the RIU Betting Analyst is tasked with monitoring betting anomalies by NZ licensees how did Kerr slip under the radar?  Are there other examples being "overlooked"?

[Karrots]

49 minutes ago, the galah said:

One thing that has been noticeable about nearly every horse that has gone from the Kerr stable to another trainer is how poorly they run for the new trainers.They all lose a leg.I have pointed out previously that you would have to be cautious if you were buying one.

Liked your comment, now realise I actually only know of 1, Smokin By. 

Could you name some others Galahs?

Watch out Chief is patrolling close-by hehe.

[hunterthepunter]

52 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Oooohhh!  Another conspiracy theory perhaps.  

forgotten highway

[hunterthepunter]

31 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Liked your comment, now realise I actually only know of 1, Smokin By. 

 

come dance with me karrots lol

[Chief Stipe]

Actually the assertion that Kerr's horses lost form after moving stable, if in fact true, highlights what a loss the talented young Kerr is to the industry.

Afterall we have an impeccable RIU and a world class drug testing regime so it must be just pure talent.

[the galah]

47 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Liked your comment, now realise I actually only know of 1, Smokin By. 

Could you name some others Galahs?

Watch out Chief is patrolling close-by hehe.

Well in the last week or so,A bettor act,Manhattan and A delightful act.All have been flops and appear to have lost a leg somewhere since changing stables. They have gone to N williamson,R butt and R dunn as trainers.  

 

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Actually the assertion that Kerr's horses lost form after moving stable, if in fact true, highlights what a loss the talented young Kerr is to the industry.

Afterall we have an impeccable RIU and a world class drug testing regime so it must just pure talent.

yeah right.

[Karrots]

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

Well in the last week or so,A bettor act,Manhattan and A delightful act.All have been flops and appear to have lost a leg somewhere since changing stables. They have gone to N williamson,R butt and R dunn as trainers.  

Ok you can keep your like 

 

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, the galah said:

Well in the last week or so,A bettor act,Manhattan and A delightful act.All have been flops and appear to have lost a leg somewhere since changing stables. They have gone to N williamson,R butt and R dunn as trainers.  

 

OK - you can't say A Bettor Act has "lost a leg" since changing stables.  It last won a race 10 October 2019 and has had one other placing since then in 9 starts!  It has only had two starts from the Williamson stable.  Its best success was when it was in the All Stars stable BEFORE going to Kerr!

Manattan has had only 7 starts yet to win a race and has only run two places 7 months ago!  Those two placing's were hardly in top fields!

You might have a point with A Delightful Act but it has hardly set the world on fire.  Last win was October last year and its next five starts returned one placing when it was in the Kerr stable.  Perhaps it has reached its mark.

So the evidence doesn't back up your assertion.  As you keep telling us the RIU is doing a great job so if there had been any issues surely they would have been uncovered.

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Ok you can keep your like 

 

Karrots don't be sucked in by a particular narrative - it pays to follow up and check the facts. 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, hunterthepunter said:

forgotten highway

Hasn't raced for a year!