JCA - M Kerr Decision

[Karrots]

26 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

thanks Karrots , yeah Pokie Bear seem to think everyone 'doing their Jobs' is guilty of malpractice , which is ridiculous . press report (as the Galah says) , RIU investigate , drivers drive. what's the problem ?

No good sticking up for people like Kerr , who have let the side down. These things happen , lots of gambling junkies out there lol.... , Brodie wants to turn over a million per annum lol.., no wonder barred/banned , whatever .

Whatever happened to the fun ?? I still enjoy it . and you too obviously !. looking forward to some more great racing soon !!!

Hey Gamms,

No I see you as Pure Steel on RC. As I saw Forbs as Retarted Driver when people said, no Karrots you are dreaming and its not possible as Chief told me. But I said there are things as VPNS. And I was sure on this. 

Iv just heard things.

On the flip side, I have a friend that is close with the P4P, who respects P4P very much and I respect this friend and their opinion.  

So I am being a lil unfair on this. And I do treat peeps as they treat me. So re P4P I won't say bad things until I myself have a bad experience.

Just saying I think you poking bear. Thats not really that bad.

We can Pm my friend 😉

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Karrots

[Gammalite]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:43 PM, the galah said:

Imagine the headlines had the nz tab accepted his bets knowing how much he was losing. They don't want punters like kerr. I wonder if he had bet on the nz tab,would they have brought the extent of his loses to harness authorities to investigate. You would hope so given he lost $1 million in 2 years.

still think the Tab is obligated to look after their clients privacy.

However they should also be obligated to answer queries regarding a legitimate RIU or steward investigation. AND they do, as far as I know.

[Karrots]

44 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Hey Gamms,

No I see you as Pure Steel on RC. As I saw Forbs as Retarted Driver when people said, no Karrots you are dreaming and its not possible as Chief told me. But I said there are things as VPNS. And I was sure on this. 

Iv just heard things.

On the flip side, I have a friend that is close with the P4P, who respects P4P very much and I respect this friend and their opinion.  

So I am being a lil unfair on this. And I do treat peeps as they treat me. So re P4P I won't say bad things until I myself have a bad experience.

Just saying I think you poking bear. Thats not really that bad.

We can Pm my friend 😉

 

It was funny, Im not on social media, but like a month ago I was on a friends account whom I have talked into getting a share in a horse & she showed me P4P social media.

And we were like oh his getting pix with like Penny and Anna. Yeah we know these peeps  eyeball roll, oh the auckland fake scene.

Anyway I have first dibs on our mutual friend to sit with me and my friends at Jewels and I am already like looking for 3 extra tickets to Jewels same area. Cause its gunna be party.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Karrots

[Karrots]

Was just thinking,

But for example I have friend that I have told, look a tkt I cannot guraneetee you, to the Jewels to sit with us, therefore its in air if they will make it, depends if we can get ticket ... Tickets in certain areas have sold out btw. 

This person is could a potential owner, as is a 1-2 share holder in a successful share broker company in NZ and is SO keen to come to Jewels for day, just to get away from Auckland work and stuff!

They have potential clients, they speak with on a daily basis, whom they could say to hey come along to this Jewels thing day.

People that have money.

Maybe an idea would be a separate room for potential investors.

Its too late now, and I hope I can get mate a tkt, but as Iv said look budd, Im not sure.

Is a shame to turn, people away.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Karrots

[the galah]

All this looking to blame someone else. Its a bit tiresome.

I once came across a bloke going crook at a taxi driver,blaming him for enabling his daughter to drink because that is how she got to the local liquor outlet. It was his fault,the liquor outlets fault and her friends fault. They all enabled her according to the father who was at his wits end. 

The point i make is people can be very deceptive and manipulating,and to expect them to turn off that behavior when it comes to satisfying their addictions is not how addicts work.

One thing i have learnt from people who manipulate,is with experience they get better at their manipulation,and the better ones know how to suck people in. Also many of those around them believe what they want to be true,irrespective of truth or not being spoken by the manipulator.  I would go as far to say, those who do that should look at themselves in the mirror,instead of continuing to blame the wrong party.Thats humans for you.

Edited April 19, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, the galah said:

All this looking to blame someone else. Its a bit tiresome.

 

9 hours ago, the galah said:

I would go as far to say, those who do that should look at themselves in the mirror,instead of continuing to blame the wrong party.

Galah it is you that keeps talking about blame and victims.  No one else is trying to blame anyone else.  However some of us are taking the approach that there should be better systems in place that prevent or at the very least limit the opportunity for fraud to be committed.  A bit like speed cameras.  Are they there as a deterrent or a means of facilitating punishment?

Isn't the role of HRNZ and the RIU to protect innocent parties, to act as a deterrent and to prevent fraud in the racing industry?  Or are they just there to catch and punish?

Some simple yes/no questions for you Galah.  Let's address three of the key issues in the Kerr episode from a prospective of fraud prevention and deterrence.

A:  Preventing Fraud in the Ownership of Standardbred Horses 
For a horse to raced and/or be bred to or from in the Standardbred industry it MUST have an owner or owners, it must be branded, its parentage confirmed by DNA testing - from the foaling paddock to the grave.  Otherwise it is worthless to the industry.
Question 1:  Should HRNZ have a system in place available to all owners that believe they have an interest in a horse where they can confirm the ownership and the percentage of that ownership?  Yes or No.

B:  Protecting those with a Pecuniary Interests in Registered Standardbred Horses - e.g. Insurances and Lien's etc.
In society there are rules in place concerning the ownership of assets such as homes and vehicles.  With vehicles the owners must be registered as does any pecuniary interest in a vehicle e.g. loans and liens held by third parties.  Those systems are there to prevent fraud and protect innocent people from financial loss.  An insurance policy is a pecuniary interest against a horse.
Question 2:  Should HRNZ have a system in place available to all owners where any pecuniary interest interest is registered against the ownership of the registered horse?  Yes or No.

C; Proactively Monitoring Licensees (Trainers and Drivers) Gambling
Under the rules of racing Trainers and Drivers have restrictions on what they can and can't bet on.  It follows that those responsible for policing and monitoring this activity have the power and the capability to legally do so.  In the Kerr episode we have a licensee who was previously identified as a problem gambler and who was losing in excess of $50,000 a month.  That loss equates to millions of dollars in annual turnover as it takes a pretty poor gambler to not win something.
Question 3:  Should TAB-NZ (including offshore betting agencies), HRNZ and the RIU share relevant information regarding Licensees in order to allow the proactive monitoring of Licensees Gambling activity?  Yes or No.

Now that isn't shifting the blame for the current episode of interest.  What I'm proposing is a shift in culture from one that looks to catch and punish after harm has been done to one which puts systems in place to limit harm and fraud by deterrence and the closing of loopholes.

Isn't that what we pay the employees of TAB-NZ, HRNZ and the RIU millions of dollars in salaries to do?

[hunterthepunter]

12 hours ago, Karrots said:

It was funny, Im not on social media, but like a month ago I was on a friends account whom I have talked into getting a share in a horse & she showed me P4P social media.

And we were like oh his getting pix with like Penny and Anna. Yeah we know these peeps  eyeball roll, oh the auckland fake scene.

Anyway I have first dibs on our mutual friend to sit with me and my friends at Jewels and I am already like looking for 3 extra tickets to Jewels same area. Cause its gunna be party.

karrots are you going to the jewels with p4p?

[the galah]

I agree with all 3 of your points chief in your most recent post.

The kerr case has highlighted current areas in which a very deceptive person can gain unlawful financial advantage from his victims without their knowledge.

But my point is how restrictive and compliant do you make things to protect against people who act like kerr and at what cost ,and i don't believe that would stop people like kerr acting deceptively anyway.

You have a thing against the RIU,and have refered to them as keystone cops in this thread. You refer to poor systems at the tab and hrnz, but put little focus on kerrs actions to deceive,his victims being sucked in and their failure to pick up the deceptions earlier,and kerrs family and friends who despite having good intentions,whose trust was misguided.

So i get what your saying,i just think the picture you paint focuses on only a small part of the overall picture.

Edited April 19, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

34 minutes ago, the galah said:

But my point is how restrictive and compliant do you make things to protect against people who act like kerr and at what cost ,and i don't believe that would stop people like kerr acting deceptively anyway.

They would have to act deceptively in other areas.  What I'm proposing is not restrictive it is enforcing proactively the rules that exist now and putting in places systems and processes that close loopholes in the system.  Isn't that what HRNZ and the RIU are tasked to do?

37 minutes ago, the galah said:

You have a thing against the RIU,and have refered to them as keystone cops in this thread. You refer to poor systems at the tab and hrnz

Yes I do have issues with the way the industry is run.  The RIU and HRNZ together cost $16 million to run.  You agree that the systems I proposed above should be in place.  If they had been then three significant areas for deception would have been closed off.  Yes that may not have stopped Kerr from doing something else to fund his addiction.  

HRNZ charge horrendously for ownership registration, transfers and license fees and deliver what in return?

HRNZ Transaction Fees

Branding Fee (charged if foal un-registered at 1st August)	$145.00
Change of name	$110.00
Colours Registration - new	$125.00
Colours Registration - 3 yearly renewal or Transfer	$80.00
Export Clearance Fee	$500.00
Foal Registration - Current season born	$195.00
Foal Registration - Previous seasons	Fee Scale
Import Clearance Fee	$500.00
Imported Horse Registration	$60.00
Leases - Breeding and Racing	$80.00
Service Certificates	$35.00
Service Certificates (if on HRNZ Stud Management Programme)	$30.00
Stallion Registrations 0-25 mares	$70.00
Stallion Registrations 26-50 mares	$110.00
Stallion Registrations 51+ mares and Non Resident Stallion	$215.00
Syndicates - Annual Renewal	$30.00
Syndicates - New	Free
Transfer of Ownership	$80.00
Company Registration	$165.00
Family Trust Registration	$165.00

HRNZ Licence Fees

 

HORSEMAN LICENCES ONLY
Open Horseman	$175.00
Graduation Horseman	$135.00
Advanced Amateur Horseman	$135.00
Junior Horseman	$125.00
Trials Horseman	$105.00
Trials Horseman (If licensed as an Advanced Amateur Horseman)	$0.00
LICENCE TO TRAIN	$145.00
Licence To Train and Open Horseman	$270.00
Licence To Train and Graduation Horseman	$230.00
Licence To Train and Junior Horseman	$220.00
Licence To Train and Trials Horseman	$200.00
Licence To Train and Trials Horseman (If licensed as an Advanced Amateur Horseman)	$145.00
PUBLIC TRAINER	$175.00
Public Trainer and Open Horseman	$300.00
Public Trainer and Graduation Horseman	$260.00
Public Trainer and Junior Horseman	$250.00
Public Trainer and Trials Horseman	$230.00
Public Trainer and Trials Horseman (If licensed as an Advanced Amateur Horseman)	$175.00
OTHER
Judges and Starters (Open)	$70.00
Judges and Starters (Trials Only)	$35.00
Stablehand	$35.00
Sulky Fund Premium	$85.00
Sulky Replacement Registration Plate	$11.50

48 minutes ago, the galah said:

So i get what your saying,i just think the picture you paint focuses on only a small part of the overall picture.

It is a BIG "part of the picture".  Other racing jurisdictions do it and as I have posted elsewhere on BOAY more jurisdictions are moving in that direction.

You are quick to hammer, draw, quarter and admonish those who are caught AFTER the fact yet don't show anywhere near the energy to seek improvements from those who are charged with administering and maintaining the integrity of the sport.

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes I do have issues with the way the industry is run.  The RIU and HRNZ together cost $16 million to run.  You agree that the systems I proposed above should be in place.  If they had been then three significant areas for deception would have been closed off.  Yes that may not have stopped Kerr from doing something else to fund his addiction.  

Kerr has done the industry No favours. thank goodness the RIU eventually catch up , and these people are weeded out and can Go away/ Taken away and get the help they need. 

Trainers like Kerr and Hayden Haitana are RARE in their criminal activities. They make Headlines. 99.5% of trainers would be doing the right thing by their owners. They are doing their very best to win for them.

By far , the most unscrupulous group would be the Owners themselves. Many with 'hidden' activities and agendas and trying for a quick buck in a gambling industry , and some dodgey backgrounds. money on offer can draw out temptation to be ahead of others (and the authorities.) even on a big scale like e.g Tinkler (Patinack farms).

But the main point , you cannot charge/ prosecute BEFORE the person actually does something. Police can hang around people with priors all they like, but until they do something again (e.g the Kerr Fraud to his owners) they can't step in say "Get away from that horse " and "What do you tell your owners about their horse involvement?" . Up to the people effected, to make a complaint FIRST, and as I said before a lot of them have 'unusual deals' with the trainer regarding the preparation and fees involved in preparing their horses, (Reality) and that would be in contrast to your lovely HRNZ records, that you want kept meticulously. 

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

thank goodness the RIU eventually catch up

In this case the RIU didn't "catch up" with anything.  They wouldn't have had a clue unless they had been told.  Certainly they weren't monitoring the licensee gambling.

6 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Up to the people effected, to make a complaint FIRST, and as I said before a lot of them have 'unusual deals' with the trainer regarding the preparation and fees involved in preparing their horses, (Reality) and that would be in contrast to your lovely HRNZ records, that you want kept meticulously.

The first step would be to actually keep records and make them freely available online to owners to check.  The HRNZ after all are the central repository for these records and charge high fees for them collating them and maintaining them!  

[Rangatira]

17 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Brodie wants to turn over a million per annum lol.., no wonder barred/banned , whatever .

turnover or win ?

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Brodie wants to turn over a million per annum lol.., no wonder barred/banned , whatever

Yet a licensed trainer with a known gambling problem can turnover more just because they are losing.  Go figure!

[Rangatira]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yet a licensed trainer with a known gambling problem can turnover more just because they are losing.  Go figure!

but it doesn't matter to the brodster if he is restricted or not

aside from feeling he is entitled to constantly waaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaaa about it

[Gammalite]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

In this case the RIU didn't "catch up" with anything.  They wouldn't have had a clue unless they had been told.  Certainly they weren't monitoring the licensee gambling.

The first step would be to actually keep records and make them freely available online to owners to check.  The HRNZ after all are the central repository for these records and charge high fees for them collating them and maintaining them!  

Yes , both those would help Chief. esp all the honest players. monitoring of Licensee gambling and are central data base where owners could log in and 'check' their status. 

Not sure what happens to privacy there. A lot of licensees gamble. and a lot have friends and spouse (that could be the 'name' gambling for them). easy to get around. 

Also is an owner able to see / get a report on the exact ownership details of the other 'parties' sharing his horse? And how much they pay trainer /and shares in the horse. There will be a lot of dispute lol........  unfortunately.

After vet I bought a business with my wife. we had a little rented shop in a block of 8 shops on a backstreet. We paid the real estate bloke (acting for landlord) $1000 per month rent approx. I wrangled that deal by good pitch and convincing arguement. The other 7 shops of same size paid $2000 a month. BUT I could Never Tell those shopkeepers How much I paid even if they asked. Honesty shelved for personal gain !!! lol.... I tried not to lie and carefully avoided the topic for 6 years, or deflected conversation lol.......

[AndrewFitzgerald]

19 hours ago, Karrots said:

Was just thinking,

But for example I have friend that I have told, look a tkt I cannot guraneetee you, to the Jewels to sit with us, therefore its in air if they will make it, depends if we can get ticket ... Tickets in certain areas have sold out btw. 

This person is could a potential owner, as is a 1-2 share holder in a successful share broker company in NZ and is SO keen to come to Jewels for day, just to get away from Auckland work and stuff!

They have potential clients, they speak with on a daily basis, whom they could say to hey come along to this Jewels thing day.

People that have money.

Maybe an idea would be a separate room for potential investors.

Its too late now, and I hope I can get mate a tkt, but as Iv said look budd, Im not sure.

Is a shame to turn, people away.

Tickets to our Boys Get Paid Area at the Jewels launching this week Karrots. Get your mates a ticket with us and we'll show him a good time in with the lads - Will send you ticket link when available from Cambridge

[Brodie]

4 hours ago, Rangatira said:

but it doesn't matter to the brodster if he is restricted or not

aside from feeling he is entitled to constantly waaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaaa about it

 Ranga, not sure what you are on about?

If the TAB did away with the restrictions then Brodie wouldn’t need to  waaaaaaaaaaawaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!

All he asks for is that all punters are treated equally!

Should be no restrictions or restrictions on every punter!!!!

Edited April 20, 2021 by Brodie

[Rangatira]

3 minutes ago, Brodie said:

 Ranga, not sure what you are on about?

the brodster on a few occasions has stated it is not about the money so the financial restrictions don't matter

[Brodie]

1 minute ago, Rangatira said:

the brodster on a few occasions has stated it is not about the money so the financial restrictions don't matter

Ranga, correct, it is about the challenge and also the ethics of the TAB!!!
 

[Rangatira]

3 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Ranga, correct, it is about the challenge and also the ethics of the TAB!!!
 

so what say karrots and i go halves in a chocolate fish

you can post your bets on here and if your imaginary balance at the end of the season is positive the fish is yours

[Rangatira]

and while your are ahead you can give it to the tab all you like, but only while you are ahead

[Gammalite]

11 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Ranga, correct, it is about the challenge and also the ethics of the TAB!!!
 

Can't you just be normal and wander down to the Pubtab or tab outlet and put ya 100 on and 'GET em' Back' ?

The big casino's even have a table limit of $250 per spin , or whatever it might be. (think of each poker hand or roulette spin as a race) and casinos have WAY more budget to play with than a Tab office.

Can't expect these places to have people needing to pop $1000's per spin or greater amounts. craziness.

Would be MASSES of problem gamblers, and heaps of corruption Created. Limits are a GOOD thing.

go be a HIGH FLYER member somewhere and then get your money on if desperate. 

[Brodie]

46 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Can't you just be normal and wander down to the Pubtab or tab outlet and put ya 100 on and 'GET em' Back' ?

The big casino's even have a table limit of $250 per spin , or whatever it might be. (think of each poker hand or roulette spin as a race) and casinos have WAY more budget to play with than a Tab office.

Can't expect these places to have people needing to pop $1000's per spin or greater amounts. craziness.

Would be MASSES of problem gamblers, and heaps of corruption Created. Limits are a GOOD thing.

go be a HIGH FLYER member somewhere and then get your money on if desperate. 

Gamma, you have to identify yourself for collects or bets over $1k in NZ due to the Anti Money Laundering BS!

I refuse to do this as all they do is restrict the amounts to pathetic amounts.

Why should people who want to wager on a horse have to identify yourself to the TAB for a collect of $1k, and they say it is to identify everyone as they could be MONEY LAUNDERING!!!!!!

BS I say, it is about control so that the TAB knows who is winning!!

[Gammalite]

7 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Gamma, you have to identify yourself for collects or bets over $1k in NZ due to the Anti Money Laundering BS!

I refuse to do this as all they do is restrict the amounts to pathetic amounts.

Why should people who want to wager on a horse have to identify yourself to the TAB for a collect of $1k, and they say it is to identify everyone as they could be MONEY LAUNDERING!!!!!!

BS I say, it is about control so that the TAB knows who is winning!!

I see. I thought it might have been anonymous.  I like anonymous tickets compared to account betting personally, but way more and more am using Sportsbet as has the bet returns and power-ups , etc too good to refuse.

What about a series of small bets ? they can't stop that surely? e.g 5 x $200 if you wanted $1k on?

Hey and don't forget your pathetic amount of $200 or whatever, is a BIG bet for most players.

 

[Brodie]

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

I see. I thought it might have been anonymous.  I like anonymous tickets compared to account betting personally, but way more and more am using Sportsbet as has the bet returns and power-ups , etc too good to refuse.

What about a series of small bets ? they can't stop that surely? e.g 5 x $200 if you wanted $1k on?

Hey and don't forget your pathetic amount of $200 or whatever, is a BIG bet for most players.

 

They pick up on it pretty quickly Gamma as $200 registers as a BIG BET!!!

They freeze it and kill the div!

They want control of all punters just like our Labour Government want control of all people living in NZ!

They did have 50% of the sheep at the last election and many are now realising that they are the most controlling useless govt. NZ has ever had.