Business Case - CJC Riccarton All Weather Track - here it is!

[nomates]

Looking at Timaru today one could almost suggest that they already had an A/W track in the region . The brain dead fuckers that want to close this track are showing how little understanding of what this industry needs .

Why on earth would you want to race on an A/W track when you can race on this .

Massive agendas at work now .

[Huey]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Looking at Timaru today one could almost suggest that they already had an A/W track in the region . The brain dead fuckers that want to close this track are showing how little understanding of what this industry needs .

Why on earth would you want to race on an A/W track when you can race on this .

Massive agendas at work now .

It's pretty clear to me the only way there will ever be significant stakes increases in NZ racing is via asset sales, I'm guessing the fool's in charge know this also and thus we are having these shenanigans as a means of justifying such decisions, one just has to look at the lack of turnover info/ detail available to realise this.

[Ludwig]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

Looking at Timaru today one could almost suggest that they already had an A/W track in the region . The brain dead fuckers that want to close this track are showing how little understanding of what this industry needs .

Why on earth would you want to race on an A/W track when you can race on this .

Massive agendas at work now .

Excellent times, track conditions and racing. Such an underutilized facility.

[Horace]

4 hours ago, nomates said:

Looking at Timaru today one could almost suggest that they already had an A/W track in the region . The brain dead fuckers that want to close this track are showing how little understanding of what this industry needs .

Why on earth would you want to race on an A/W track when you can race on this .

Massive agendas at work now .

Yes there are agendas at work. Just watch racing in the North as soon as it starts to rain. Tracks like Te Aroha, Matamata, rotovegas get 'heavy' and you'll find that programmed races on those tracks will be transferred to the Cambridge highway track....after all the money spent at Cambridge-and it aint finished yet-nztr especially will want to justify all of the money and so they'll be quick to ' can' racing on real winter tracks. Pity about any true winter track horses....not going to liking the synthetic crap.

p.s. I walked on the 'synthetic' surface during construction. The base is identical to the highway that passes the course. Tar sealed. They better make sure the surface is deep and protecting horses legs or else there will be carnage.

[Chief Stipe]

49 minutes ago, Horace said:

p.s. I walked on the 'synthetic' surface during construction. The base is identical to the highway that passes the course. Tar sealed. They better make sure the surface is deep and protecting horses legs or else there will be carnage

Exactly.  Plus the fill on top is imported sand and synthetic fibres (aka micro plastics).   Wait till the Greenies cotton onto that.

 

[nomates]

44 minutes ago, Horace said:

nztr especially will want to justify all of the money and so they'll be quick to ' can' racing on real winter tracks. Pity about any true winter track horses....not going to liking the synthetic crap.

They can xfer as many meetings as they want , the reality is that any horse that requires a S9 or H10/11+ aint going to run on an A/W , not on a regular basis anyway , the races will be run too quick for them .

Popplewell and Rodley suggested yesterday that horses that have heavy track form xfer it well to the A/W's , got no idea where they get their data from but you don't have to be a scientist to work out that if a horse needs it's 1200 mtr race to be run no slower than 1.16 to be competitive is going to struggle on an A/W .

As i said earlier they can run all the A/W meetings and xfer as many meetings as you want , but if you don't have horses that are competive on it they will not run there .

They will struggle to have enough numbers to run meetings at Cambridge , god knows how they will sustain it in the CD or SI . They are specific types of tracks and a lot of horses once they have shown a dislike for it will not be tried there again , so numbers will dwindle eventually , once they do will it will left to be seen whether they have sufficient numbers to run the number of meetings they want to .

The interesting thing for me will be watching which trainers utilize the tracks and with which type of horses , wont take long to see patterns .

But as has been expressed regularly by trainers , no probs they will stil have great training and trialing tracks to use .

And all that before the discussion about whether punters will take to them , i wont on the basis that i do as per a usual raceday , only if i don't want to miss a horse i have been following .

[Huey]

42 minutes ago, nomates said:

They can xfer as many meetings as they want , the reality is that any horse that requires a S9 or H10/11+ aint going to run on an A/W , not on a regular basis anyway , the races will be run too quick for them .

Popplewell and Rodley suggested yesterday that horses that have heavy track form xfer it well to the A/W's , got no idea where they get their data from but you don't have to be a scientist to work out that if a horse needs it's 1200 mtr race to be run no slower than 1.16 to be competitive is going to struggle on an A/W .

As i said earlier they can run all the A/W meetings and xfer as many meetings as you want , but if you don't have horses that are competive on it they will not run there .

They will struggle to have enough numbers to run meetings at Cambridge , god knows how they will sustain it in the CD or SI . They are specific types of tracks and a lot of horses once they have shown a dislike for it will not be tried there again , so numbers will dwindle eventually , once they do will it will left to be seen whether they have sufficient numbers to run the number of meetings they want to .

The interesting thing for me will be watching which trainers utilize the tracks and with which type of horses , wont take long to see patterns .

But as has been expressed regularly by trainers , no probs they will stil have great training and trialing tracks to use .

And all that before the discussion about whether punters will take to them , i wont on the basis that i do as per a usual raceday , only if i don't want to miss a horse i have been following .

I didnt hear that about Rodley and Popplewell, love to hear the logic as to my mind their notion is absurd! 

The AWT will suit next to no current winter horses imo.

[nomates]

39 minutes ago, Huey said:

The AWT will suit next to no current winter horses imo.

Well any self respecting punter who does even the slightest bit of study or has regular knowledge of form , as a rule will disregard horses with purely soft 8/9 and heavy tracks when they run on a D4/5 . There is the rare exception , but they are few and far between and usually catch punters out .

There is a reason they need wet tracks .

[Derek]

With the best carnival in New Zealand!  Get over yourself Stipe! The tracks built!

Move on mate! Your negative approach is becoming very boring!

 

[nomates]

2 minutes ago, Derek said:

With the best carnival in New Zealand!  Get over yourself Stipe! The tracks built!

Move on mate! Your negative approach is becoming very boring!

 

Don't read it then , simple .

Perhaps you could enlighten us why you think the A/W's are going to work . 

Just because the track is built doesn't make it right or that it will be a success .

Did you watch Timaru today ? why do they need an A/W when they have Autumn/Winter tracks that can present like this .

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, Derek said:

With the best carnival in New Zealand!  Get over yourself Stipe! The tracks built!

Move on mate! Your negative approach is becoming very boring!

 

So you're happy to run your best 2 and 3 yr olds on the Riccarton Turf in November?

Watch this space in October - only four months away!

[mikeynz]

3 things I reckon about the AWT,one it does seem a lot of money for 7 or 8 industry meetings.

It contradicts the centralisation theory, as Timaru is actually central ,perfectly central between north and south.

And it doesn't actually take any pressure off the present Riccarton track,which probably needs a bit of a spell.

It was interesting reading about Wingatui wanting 6 meetings of harness but only getting two,they being the experts were concerned about the damage to the track,yet they start the season off by having 3 days in August at Riccarton  at probably the poorest time of the year,

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, Derek said:

Move on mate! Your negative approach is becoming very boring!

No I won't "move on".

If you call being negative asking to see the business case and demanding that the turf track be renovated as negative then open your naive eyes.

[Gospel of Judas]

Do wonder reading this what incentives going to have to give out to get trainers and owners to get some horses going round AWF in both the North and South Islands. As course, be in best interests to do so, as need as many runners they can get .To properly convince both owners and trainers run more horses on them. Untill actually got a proper read of them.

[Huey]

27 minutes ago, Gospel of Judas said:

Do wonder reading this what incentives going to have to give out to get trainers and owners to get some horses going round AWF in both the North and South Islands. As course, be in best interests to do so, as need as many runners they can get .To properly convince both owners and trainers run more horses on them. Untill actually got a proper read of them.

I cant see incentives working, especially if as NM says the horse doesn't perform on them or worse still it's not good for them in some way, we wont know for a few months of meetings how they really going to go,I guess one thing they cant make nzracing any more boring than it has become,  surely?

[nomates]

23 minutes ago, Huey said:

I cant see incentives working, especially if as NM says the horse doesn't perform on them or worse still it's not good for them in some way, we wont know for a few months of meetings how they really going to go,I guess one thing they cant make nzracing any more boring than it has become,  surely?

They are really going to need exceptional turnovers to help cover the extra expense of incentives . Can't really see turnovers being any different to any other day , if anything it wont surprise me to see betting stagnate . 

As iv'e said a couple of times , there are a lot of fascinating angles to watch for when it starts up .

[Freda]

7 hours ago, nomates said:

Don't read it then , simple .

Perhaps you could enlighten us why you think the A/W's are going to work . 

Just because the track is built doesn't make it right or that it will be a success .

Did you watch Timaru today ? why do they need an A/W when they have Autumn/Winter tracks that can present like this 

Was a lovely day down there yesterday,  superb weather, families picnicking on blankets, sitting on a grassy slope, great atmosphere. 

How stopping days like this aids racing overall beggars belief.

I've harped on this ad nauseum....but - Messara has gotten the blame for wanting tracks shut.  His idea was NOT to shut tracks pointlessly,  but to use the assets from unwanted facilities to upgrade a few selected venues.  He was quite aware there was/is no spare money, and this was the only source he could readily identify.  But Timaru,  I understand, is not saleable,  so.....?

[Chief Stipe]

There is no plan there is no business case.

Even the rationale behind track closures was flawed.

One in particular.  "AWT's will save millions from meeting abandonments".....

Tui Ad that one!

4 months to crap spring tracks at Awapuni and Riccarton.  Too late for the renovator's then!

[mikeynz]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:28 PM, nomates said:

Looking at Timaru today one could almost suggest that they already had an A/W track in the region . The brain dead fuckers that want to close this track are showing how little understanding of what this industry needs .

Why on earth would you want to race on an A/W track when you can race on this .

Massive agendas at work now .

Timaru do have a grievance,they want 6 meetings but will now have only 3,I think there are some anomalies with their scheduling for next winter,Oamaru race Thursday june23.2days later Riccarton race on grass,yet nothing on the Sunday before,what Timaru really need is a Feature meeting on one of those spring saturdays,in spring,it will bolster their finances and take the pressure off Riccarton,does that make sense.All weather track or not if it don't impinge on others then fine,if they wanted the same scenario in the north then with a all weather track in Cambridge does that make Ruakaka surplus to requirement,a big number racing today come from the Waikato,would reduce a lot of travel but there is a reason they race every fortnight in winter and spring.can anyone work out why?

Same thing for Washdyke reallycommon sense.

[nomates]

NZTR have an update around the Riccarton A/W track along with an airial photo , got me thinking if Palmy build a track that wide that far inside main track it's going to have a 200 mtr straight with total circumfrance around 1200/1300 mts .

Has anyone seen a plan for what they intend to build there ?

Might be able to xfer the Manawatu trots and greys to Awapuni .

[Freda]

15 hours ago, nomates said:

NZTR have an update around the Riccarton A/W track along with an airial photo , got me thinking if Palmy build a track that wide that far inside main track it's going to have a 200 mtr straight with total circumfrance around 1200/1300 mts .

Has anyone seen a plan for what they intend to build there ?

Might be able to xfer the Manawatu trots and greys to Awapuni .

Talking to Robbie Hannam when he was down, the Awapuni AWT hasn't been started yet, he said, and didn't know when it was likely to get going.   I think he was quietly pleased he was still out on an injury break and  not having to deal with it all!

[Chief Stipe]

On 15/04/2021 at 4:50 PM, Pitman said:

Yes you are very good at creating a negative

But lets look at it positively

300 horses at $120 month = $36,000 x 12 = $432,000 they'll be making money with trials, rent, etc

Don't think there will be any need for extra staff as the amount of training tracks to be maintained have been reduced.

I believe machinery required is included in the original contract, I might be wrong but think not.

Going by the annual accounts they don't seem to be making positive revenue yet from the AWT.

[curious]

On 19/04/2021 at 8:25 PM, Chief Stipe said:

A key question to be answered for me is what impact pre-race grooming of the poly-fill will have.  From what I've read you can't just leave it untouched from one week to the next.  They need to groom everyday.

There is also differences in how the surface presents based on air temperature, moisture and depth of grooming.

I hope they will still take going stick and/or penetrometer readings to give an indication rather than just say "synthetic"!

We are also improving the transparency and communication of information about the
synthetic tracks by moving to publish the Clegg hammer readings prior to raceday for
all synthetic track meetings. Clegg hammer record the level of compaction of the
synthetic profile. The publication of these readings will give comfort that the tracks are
where they need to be and avoid speculation and misinformation filling the void.

As noted above, the synthetic tracks are susceptible to variations in temperature and
can become tighter with extremely cold weather. They do, therefore, require constant
attention (just as turf tracks do) to ensure they remain in the best condition for racing
and training, and are not (and have never been considered to be) a low maintenance
solution, with their preparation depending on the proposed use (e.g. racing or training)
and weather conditions. Accordingly, NZTR subsidises the extra cost of the maintenance
of the synthetic tracks to ensure Clubs can maintain them to the level that is required.

[Special Agent]

On 10/5/2024 at 2:15 AM, curious said:

are not (and have never been considered to be) a low maintenance solution, with their preparation depending on the proposed use (e.g. racing or training) and weather conditions. Accordingly, NZTR subsidises the extra cost of the maintenance
of the synthetic tracks to ensure Clubs can maintain them to the level that is required.

I can liken the money given to set the all weather tracks up to the cheapest part of a racehorse being it's purchase price.  Due diligence was lacking in this exercise in the quest to gain these "state of the art" facilities.

Without the subsidising from NZTR I can only assume the NZ AWT demise.  In hindsight is NZTR shooting the industry in the foot by propping these tracks up?

Field size already shows trainer and/or owner reluctance.  I feel left to club maintenance only at least the southern most two would fold very quickly.

 

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Without the subsidising from NZTR I can only assume the NZ AWT demise. 

It would be great to seem some transparency around how much that subsidisation is.