Ashburton 1700m...

[Big Bang]

Anyone know why?

Or who was behind this decision?

Word about the tracks on the weekend is that the new President made the decision to shy away from mile racing at Ashburton because that's what the horseman want. 

A move to see the home of one mile racing, changed to 1700m, perhaps. 

Shame really. 

Not a good viewing track to be at, but mile racing there was entertaining. 

 

[Davis]

17 minutes ago, Big Bang said:

Anyone know why?

Or who was behind this decision?

Word about the tracks on the weekend is that the new President made the decision to shy away from mile racing at Ashburton because that's what the horseman want. 

A move to see the home of one mile racing, changed to 1700m, perhaps. 

Shame really. 

Not a good viewing track to be at, but mile racing there was entertaining. 

 

This doesn't make sense to me. I can't see the point of a 1700m race as it is only 90m longer than the 1609m mile. What is the point? May as well stay at the traditional mile distance rather than add a few more metres in my opinion. Lately, there have been some strange races over weird distances and here is another. 

[Brodie]

Longer the races the better I say.

1700metres will obviously give a longer run into the first bend which is good.

Mile racing just to get quick mile rates and black print is so yesterday, as most horses win in quick times compared to years ago.

Drivers need to speak up, there couldnt be any that enjoy mile racing could there?

[Rangatira]

11 hours ago, Davis said:

This doesn't make sense to me. I can't see the point of a 1700m race as it is only 90m longer than the 1609m mile. What is the point? May as well stay at the traditional mile distance rather than add a few more metres in my opinion. Lately, there have been some strange races over weird distances and here is another. 

Its not an awful move in an experimental sense as it will be a tick over 200m to the winning post plus approximately another 50m to the bend where before it was a tick over 110m to the winning post

it would be good to see more horses storming home from the back at ashburton but i am not convinced this will do that. hopefully i am wrong

while we are mentioning ashburton it is interesting to note that back in 1991 at the 2 day queens birthday meeting the average stake for c0, c1 and c2 races was $5304

[Gammalite]

10 hours ago, Brodie said:

Longer the races the better I say.

1700metres will obviously give a longer run into the first bend which is good.

Yes the start is critical in the shorter races. The longer run to the first bend being actioned, is excellent because it changes the race tactics. 

The Queensland miles at Albion 1000m track are 1660m. It encourages those drawn wide to have a crack for the lead (or outside leader) before the first bend, whereas if racing is just 1609m EXACT mile, the turn is too close , and the outside horse's would Have to drop back in field, as would be planted 3-wide.

Second row runners then also get more chance as the 'extra pressure' up front early , sometimes causes those up front to tire slightly and the backmarkers can get into it afterall. !

So all good , and sure Ashburton TC would be thinking the same, and drivers will be happy ok.

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

Its not an awful move in an experimental sense as it will be a tick over 200m to the winning post plus approximately another 50m to the bend where before it was a tick over 110m to the winning post

it would be good to see more horses storming home from the back at ashburton but i am not convinced this will do that. hopefully i am wrong

while we are mentioning ashburton it is interesting to note that back in 1991 at the 2 day queens birthday meeting the average stake for c0, c1 and c2 races was $5304

They were also racing for far more than $5k werent they Ranga

Convert $5k in 1991 to what it should be in 2021 Ranga to see how stake money has declined 

[Rangatira]

56 minutes ago, Brodie said:

They were also racing for far more than $5k werent they Ranga

not that i am aware of

certainly not on a regular week in week out basis for for c0, c1 and c2 races

be good to see you back up your claim in the "rangiora 1390 metre races" thread

"Racing for $8k nowadays is disastrous.

They were racing for this amount 30 years ago!!!"

[Brodie]

13 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

not that i am aware of

certainly not on a regular week in week out basis for for c0, c1 and c2 races

be good to see you back up your claim in the "rangiora 1390 metre races" thread

"Racing for $8k nowadays is disastrous.

They were racing for this amount 30 years ago!!!"

Ranga back your claims up with evidence that they werent racing for $8k at Addington!!!

I say there were  any races 30 years ago for in excess of $8k!!!!!!!

We have debated this before Ranga and races being run over 30 years ago were in excess of what horses race for today!!!!!!

Show us a program or racebook from Addington that shows that they werent in fact racing for $8k

[Rangatira]

1 minute ago, Brodie said:

Ranga back your claims up with evidence that they werent racing for $8k at Addington!!!

I say there were  any races 30 years ago for in excess of $8k!!!!!!!

We have debated this before Ranga and races being run over 30 years ago were in excess of what horses race for today!!!!!!

Show us a program or racebook from Addington that shows that they werent in fact racing for $8k

given you made the original assertion as follows you back it up

"Racing for $8k nowadays is disastrous.

They were racing for this amount 30 years ago!!!"

[Brodie]

36 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

given you made the original assertion as follows you back it up

"Racing for $8k nowadays is disastrous.

They were racing for this amount 30 years ago!!!"

congratulations Ranga, you are the most pedantic person I have ever dealt with.

I unfortunately havent retained racebooks going back 30 to 40 years from Addington Ranga!!!

I still maintain that stakes of $8k were run at Addington going back 30 plus years ago.

Stakes havent increased much at all in general.

They were racing for $75k NZ Trotting cup 50 years ago!

You are delusional if you think that stakes of $8k are worth racing for compared to what they used to race for and compared to costs back then!

Ranga, as I say I havent got any racebooks but clearly you have so I await you backing up the fact that you reckon they did not race for $8k,

[Rangatira]

9 minutes ago, Brodie said:

congratulations Ranga, you are the most pedantic person I have ever dealt with.

you should substitute honest and accurate for pedantic

[Rangatira]

12 minutes ago, Brodie said:

They were racing for $75k NZ Trotting cup 50 years ago!

i am pretty sure sole command won the first 75K nz trotting cup in 1977 and hands down the first 100K nz trotting cup in 1980 so yeah 44 years ago not 50 as you claimed

its very you to perpetuate one lie with another lol

hmmmmm will the brodster produce some facts challenging my assertion or will he resort to abuse, the latter being his traditional response when he is caught out.

[Gammalite]

36 minutes ago, Brodie said:

I unfortunately havent retained racebooks going back 30 to 40 years from Addington Ranga!!!

I still maintain that stakes of $8k were run at Addington going back 30 plus years ago.

I have some Auckland racebooks from normal meets, from the late 80's when visiting NZ again.

The Auckland prizemoney you would think would be similar to Addington in those loose class events.

c0 raced for $6,000 ($3,400 to winners)

c1 raced for $6,500 ($3,750 to winners )   and the c2 were up for $7,000 race stakes with $4,000 to the winner.

Conversion from that time is about 100% (just over in value) 

so the $6,000 for the maidens would be same as $12,000 these days. hope that helps you and Ranga a little.

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Rangatira said:

while we are mentioning ashburton it is interesting to note that back in 1991 at the 2 day queens birthday meeting the average stake for c0, c1 and c2 races was $5304

Going on the nz inflation calculator $5304 in 1991 is worth $9430 today. I see they are running for $8000 on saturday at ashburton,so its not as bad as people may think.

1 win horses were running for $8000 in 1996 at addington. That equates to $14,223 today. Similar grade on friday night seem to be running for $12,000 or $15,000 so not much difference there.

The reality is each individual has their own perspective on where nz harness racing is at,and what the future may hold. If we have been exposed to negative experiences ,then obviously its understandable that you view those areas of the industry in a negative way. Hence how brodie feels about the tab.Same as how positive past experiences create positive thoughts. 

I think the likely future is not as bad as some make out. It really just comes down to the  present and future decisions made by leadership right through to individuals at grass root levels. Obviously participation at all levels will decline,but the pace of the decline is unlikely to be at the speed some seem to predict.

[Rangatira]

23 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

I have some Auckland racebooks from normal meets, from the late 80's when visiting NZ again.

The Auckland prizemoney you would think would be similar to Addington in those loose class events.

c0 raced for $6,000 ($3,400 to winners)

c1 raced for $6,500 ($3,750 to winners )   and the c2 were up for $7,000 race stakes with $4,000 to the winner.

Conversion from that time is about 100% (just over in value) 

so the $6,000 for the maidens would be same as $12,000 these days. hope that helps you and Ranga a little.

conversion was not part of the brodsters contention

"Racing for $8k nowadays is disastrous.

They were racing for this amount 30 years ago!!!"

That is what I am responding to

Edited April 28, 2021 by Rangatira

[whiplash smile]

31 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

I have some Auckland racebooks from normal meets, from the late 80's when visiting NZ again.

The Auckland prizemoney you would think would be similar to Addington in those loose class events.

c0 raced for $6,000 ($3,400 to winners)

c1 raced for $6,500 ($3,750 to winners )   and the c2 were up for $7,000 race stakes with $4,000 to the winner.

Conversion from that time is about 100% (just over in value) 

so the $6,000 for the maidens would be same as $12,000 these days. hope that helps you and Ranga a little.

I used to love alex park before the passing lane and cambered tracks turned it so front running that the winner was usually in the first 5 at the 800m and I think their stakes were 1 or 2k more to account for the higher costs for Auckland compared to Ch Ch

I wish someone had created a olympic type or velodrome type track, where there is no advantage in draw, fastest and fittest horse wins, no bad luck, blocked in, team driving , e.t.c

Looking at the individual sectionals now some horses are running home and finishing faster than the winner and they are 6th but they would have to be gammalite on steroids, banana milkshakes, blue magic and blood spinning with a world record last 4 to 800m to win and drop dead!

The passing lane was great for the trail and 3 bk but the cambered cambridge bend didnt help balance it out even though you could go faster around the bend

The amount of lead trail passing lane wins became obvious really quickly and hasnt really changed

It makes thoroughbred racing look so much more attractive and entertaining I just dont know much about it but will have to learn as we are still stuck with trots where you are lucky if your horse is still running, front running team driving and with the draw and start so important being stuck with p.lamb I am suprised didnt end standing start races single handledly.

Race 1 to 8 no one moves, race 10, 6 lead changes

I am exaggerating of course but it is a clusterfuck!

 

[the galah]

One of the biggest issues facing harness racing today is the value of land.

Dairying has pushed land values so high that investing in alternative use for things like training racehorses ,given the returns,is no longer affordable or attractive.Thank the national government for that.

Harness racing strongholds in canterbury and southland have seen irrigated land use double in the last 20 years.

So many of the old school dairy farmers have been replaced by corporates,or individuals with a never ending quest to apparently build their own dairy farm empire with multiple dairy farms.   

Its not just other land users like harness trainers that have been shut out,the next generation of old school farmers either have to take on huge debt,and often walk away,taking their families knowledge with it.

One thing that i have noted,the farmers i meet don't seem as happy as they used to be. Having major assets,but with big debt doesn't seem to help their happiness levels.

So the cost of farmland in areas where harness racing is dominant is being impacted by forces outside their control. Industry leaders need to come up with a solution as far as having training centres go,otherwise it will impact future participation even more.

 

 

[whiplash smile]

6 minutes ago, the galah said:

One of the biggest issues facing harness racing today is the value of land.

Dairying has pushed land values so high that investing in alternative use for things like training racehorses ,given the returns,is no longer affordable or attractive.Thank the national government for that.

Harness racing strongholds in canterbury and southland have seen irrigated land use double in the last 20 years.

So many of the old school dairy farmers have been replaced by corporates,or individuals with a never ending quest to apparently build their own dairy farm empire with multiple dairy farms.   

Its not just other land users like harness trainers that have been shut out,the next generation of old school farmers either have to take on huge debt,and often walk away,taking their families knowledge with it.

One thing that i have noted,the farmers i meet don't seem as happy as they used to be. Having major assets,but with big debt doesn't seem to help their happiness levels.

So the cost of farmland in areas where harness racing is dominant is being impacted by forces outside their control. Industry leaders need to come up with a solution as far as having training centres go,otherwise it will impact future participation even more.

 

 

excellent post galah!

[Davis]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

i am pretty sure sole command won the first 75K nz trotting cup in 1977 and hands down the first 100K nz trotting cup in 1980 so yeah 44 years ago not 50 as you claimed

its very you to perpetuate one lie with another lol

hmmmmm will the brodster produce some facts challenging my assertion or will he resort to abuse, the latter being his traditional response when he is caught out.

I did some research at Infohorse on Sole Command's last 10 starts, where, his placing and total stake for race.

 https://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gws/ws/r/infohorsews/wsd06x?Arg=hrnzg-Ptype&Arg=HorseSearch&Arg=hrnzg-DoSearch&Arg=TRUE&Arg=hrnzg-rSite&Arg=TRUE&Arg=hrnzg-HorseName&Arg=SOLE+COMMAND

Auckland, April 8, 1978, 2nd, stake $5350

Auckland, Feb 11, 1978, 1st, stake $100,000 (Auckland Cup)

Auckland, Feb 4, 1978, 4th, stake $7250

Auckland, Jan 31, 1978, 4th, stake $7250

Wellington, Jan 14, 1978, 6th, stake $17,460 (Wellington Cup?)

Wellington, Jan 11, 1978, 7th, stake $4940

Cambridge, Jan 4, 1978, 5th, stake $6000

Auckland, Jan 3, 1977, 3rd, stake $9900

Auckland, Dec 24, 1977, 10th, stake $9900

NZMetro, Nov 19, 1977, 8th, stake $10,000 (I think this race was the Allan Matson FFA? won by Palestine)

Sole Command was a very good OC horse. I expect the stakes were higher for OC than lower grades? There were three races with stakes over $10,000 - Auckland and Wellington Cups and Allan Matson FFA run during NZ Cup carnival. 

It looks from this that stakes might be a bit higher today?

[whiplash smile]

I remember an interview with peter jones in the early 90`s on trackside an he said " Id love to pay my stable foreman $500 a week but he would be getting more than I do."

That was when racing was at a peak with trackside, ph betting , pubs in TABS etc

Long hours for low pay even back then so I guess stakes were always lower than what was really needed

 

 

[Brodie]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

Going on the nz inflation calculator $5304 in 1991 is worth $9430 today. I see they are running for $8000 on saturday at ashburton,so its not as bad as people may think.

1 win horses were running for $8000 in 1996 at addington. That equates to $14,223 today. Similar grade on friday night seem to be running for $12,000 or $15,000 so not much difference there.

The reality is each individual has their own perspective on where nz harness racing is at,and what the future may hold. If we have been exposed to negative experiences ,then obviously its understandable that you view those areas of the industry in a negative way. Hence how brodie feels about the tab.Same as how positive past experiences create positive thoughts. 

I think the likely future is not as bad as some make out. It really just comes down to the  present and future decisions made by leadership right through to individuals at grass root levels. Obviously participation at all levels will decline,but the pace of the decline is unlikely to be at the speed some seem to predict.

Galah, bollacks that $8000 converts to 14k over the last 30 years!!

The CPI is a load of BS always has beEn.

What you are saying is that over the past 30 years cost of living has gone up approx 80%??????

I say that is so wrong!!!

In 1991 the national average house was just over $100,000 nowadays it is $800,000 effectively an 800% increase.

You can not tell me that food hasnt doubled over  the past 30 years!!!!

The horse training bill has gone up well over 80% over the last 30 years!!!!!

Anyone that believes that the stakes being raced for nowadays compared to costs 30 years ago, are delusional if they think there is not much difference.

Stakes being raced for in NZ are rubbish compared to 30 years ago, if not why are so many horses sold overseas and we have trouble getting new owners???

We have trouble filling fields in the middle classes of horses, why is this?

 Because owners costs have escalated and stakes have remained stagnant. 
 

 

 

[Basil]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Galah, bollacks that $8000 converts to 14k over the last 30 years!!

The CPI is a load of BS always has beEn.

What you are saying is that over the past 30 years cost of living has gone up approx 80%??????

I say that is so wrong!!!

In 1991 the national average house was just over $100,000 nowadays it is $800,000 effectively an 800% increase.

You can not tell me that food hasnt doubled over  the past 30 years!!!!

The horse training bill has gone up well over 80% over the last 30 years!!!!!

Anyone that believes that the stakes being raced for nowadays compared to costs 30 years ago, are delusional if they think there is not much difference.

Stakes being raced for in NZ are rubbish compared to 30 years ago, if not why are so many horses sold overseas and we have trouble getting new owners???

We have trouble filling fields in the middle classes of horses, why is this?

 Because owners costs have escalated and stakes have remained stagnant. 
 

 

 

OMG, now Brodie knows more about price index construction than the Chief Statistician!  Is there no end to his talents?

First he claims that stakes are lower than they were 30 years ago. When this is shown to be demonstrably false, he switches to claiming he meant inflation-adjusted stakes. When this is shown to be marginal, he insists the official inflation adjustment is wrong. Nobody else is going to win this argument...😄

And yes Brodie, the Food Price Index has risen by 80.3% between Jan 1991 and Jan 2021. Not that there's much connection between this and the costs faced by horse owners — most horses aren't fed milk, cheese and steak.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

What you are saying is that over the past 30 years cost of living has gone up approx 80%??????

I say that is so wrong!!!

In 1991 the national average house was just over $100,000 nowadays it is $800,000 effectively an 800% increase.

109% is the allocated figure for NZ cost of living increase. And don't bring house prices into it. 1/3 of all NZ dwellings have been built this century, so costs WAY different, and real estate is an Investment Industry , with plenty of folk wanting elaborate Property portfolios. So it is folly to use that as a Cost of Living index.

I say you are correct that on looking at it , the Stakemoney is stagnant for the novice classes. Waikato and Ashburton look like $8,000 races this week , and were possibly competing for between 5k and 7k 30 years ago, which would indicate those sort of races should be 11k to 15k these days just to be the same? so does seem is less result for owners as you say.

That is why NZ and Aus (each state ) very big on the sires stakes races, as locals a chance to win big.

Also agree the horse racing costs probably in excess of the index , due to 'professional services' like the vet, truck maintenance, the farrier , the feed merchant, etc,etc all going through the ceiling. Once upon a time you took a lot of these on yourself, People grew their own hay, stuck the shoes on, did their treatments without vet often enough, all the bookwork, even the stablework lol.....

I'm with you also as a harness fan, would love to race a horse again, but this century? just no value , just the prospect of loss? no hope of talking someone new into it. Entertainment factor seems greatly diminished too.

 

 

 

 

 

[Brodie]

32 minutes ago, Basil said:

OMG, now Brodie knows more about price index construction than the Chief Statistician!  Is there no end to his talents?

First he claims that stakes are lower than they were 30 years ago. When this is shown to be demonstrably false, he switches to claiming he meant inflation-adjusted stakes. When this is shown to be marginal, he insists the official inflation adjustment is wrong. Nobody else is going to win this argument...😄

And yes Brodie, the Food Price Index has risen by 80.3% between Jan 1991 and Jan 2021. Not that there's much connection between this and the costs faced by horse owners — most horses aren't fed milk, cheese and steak.

FFS Basil.

Stakes have gone nowhere over the past 30 years.

$8k stake races is less than what they had races for 30 years ago.

Owners are significantly out of pocket now compared to 30 years ago!

What you think of Brodie’s financial nouse I don’t care, however I would back it over yours any day!!

Edited April 28, 2021 by Brodie

[Davis]

9 hours ago, Brodie said:

FFS Basil.

Stakes have gone nowhere over the past 30 years.

$8k stake races is less than what they had races for 30 years ago.

Owners are significantly out of pocket now compared to 30 years ago!

What you think of Brodie’s financial nouse I don’t care, however I would back it over yours any day!!

You may be right mate. But, back in the day only the first four horses home got stake money. Today, the whole field gets something. A slow horse like Pocket Rocknroll finishes last 16 lengths behind the winner at Rangiora in the Super Sprint, yet still earns $160 in stake money. That was probably enough to pay his way for the day?