Old Topic on Industry Funding.

[barryb]

32 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

It would also help if the focus was on improving the quality of the product i.e. the tracks and the race fields.  That would attract more wagering on our product and lead to more stakes to distribute.

Ok so tell me how you improve the race fields?. Upgrading tracks would do diddly shit for improving race fields or much else for that matter. Having a flash track to race on doesn't in the slightest make me want to go and buy a more expensive yearling. In providing the product the owner must get looked after first & tracks/fields will follow. Any business that ignores the product supplier and invests in flash shop fronts is soon out of business, looking after the supplier whom is also one of your main product purchasers is illogical not to do.

Aquaman was correct above in that you have to look after punters first, however blanket dropping of margin will see a drop in income and not much else change. Yes they of course need to get more competitive with Australia to survive, but there are other ways to do that. Deposit bonuses are a great idea with turnover requirements needed, money back placings, fixed odds boosts. The average NZ punter is far less knowledgeable than there Australian counterpart as our exsposure to things racing is a fraction what it is in Australia.

 

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, barryb said:

Ok so tell me how you improve the race fields?. Upgrading tracks would do diddly shit for improving race fields or much else for that matter. 

It doesn't improve race fields but a consistent surface that plays evenly assist punter confidence i.e. they are more likely to have a bet.  

19 minutes ago, barryb said:

Having a flash track to race on doesn't in the slightest make me want to go and buy a more expensive yearling.

That's where you and I differ.  With the state of New Zealand's "Premier" tracks at the moment (abysmal stakes aside) I have zero motivation to buy a yearling at all let alone buy a share in a syndicate.   The surfaces are just not up to scratch.  I'm starting to think that it isn't helping our good horses when they trip across the ditch either where they have dozen's of what you call "flash tracks".   

23 minutes ago, barryb said:

In providing the product the owner must get looked after first & tracks/fields will follow.

Chicken and egg to a degree.  But we've tried throwing money at stakes at the expense of investing in racing surfaces and that has failed.  Why has it failed?  Because we have ignored those who actually provide the revenue - it isn't the Owner it is the Punter.  At the end of the day most Owners have already had their biggest punt by buying a horse.  It doesn't take long when owning a horse that punting everytime your horse races only adds to your losses.

28 minutes ago, barryb said:

Any business that ignores the product supplier and invests in flash shop fronts is soon out of business, looking after the supplier whom is also one of your main product purchasers is illogical not to do.

The "Flash Shop Front's" are the huge empty grandstands and members bars.  I'm not ignoring the product supplier - I've been one myself.  What was most important to me was a good, consistent and safe surface for my investment to run on.  Hell I've had the thrill of my horses winning all round the country and I tell you when they did I didn't give a shyte about the facilities!  But I tell you what really fucked me off was when I had a very valuable horse and found it housed on course in a stable or yard that was falling apart and even dangerous and a track surface that was inconsistent and dangerous.  Then to see the horse struggle in the conditions because the Jockey hadn't walked the track like I had and didn't pick the right lane to run in!

[Chief Stipe]

33 minutes ago, barryb said:

The average NZ punter is far less knowledgeable than there Australian counterpart as our exsposure to things racing is a fraction what it is in Australia.

Didn't used to be.  Whose fault is that?  Closing down perfectly good race tracks isn't going to help.  

[barryb]

34 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Didn't used to be.  Whose fault is that?  Closing down perfectly good race tracks isn't going to help.  

Are you for real?. Its been the case for 70+ years. WTF has closing down tracks got to do with punter education?.

The Aussie punter has racing on TV wall to wall, its on the TV news at night time every Sat. They have bookie advertising at events, TV, newpapers & so on. They are sophisticated when it comes to racing, we are in our infancy and its going backwards.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, barryb said:

Are you for real?. Its been the case for 70+ years. WTF has closing down tracks got to do with punter education?.

 

Where do you think I got my education from?  Hint:  It wasn't from attending Ellerslie, Te Rapa, Awapuni, Trentham or Riccarton.

[barryb]

40 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Chicken and egg to a degree.  But we've tried throwing money at stakes at the expense of investing in racing surfaces and that has failed.  Why has it failed?  Because we have ignored those who actually provide the revenue - it isn't the Owner it is the Punter.  At the end of the day most Owners have already had their biggest punt by buying a horse.  It doesn't take long when owning a horse that punting everytime your horse races only adds to your losses.

 

The stakes investment failed because it was targeted wrong, no other reason. It supported the fat cats and left 95% of other owners still starving.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, barryb said:

The stakes investment failed because it was targeted wrong, no other reason. It supported the fat cats and left 95% of other owners still starving.

Don't disagree.

But as an Owner what was/is worse is pitching up with your horse for a targeted race and the track condition is a lottery or worse unsafe.  Doesn't matter then how much the stake was/is or how good or well trained the horse was/is as it becomes luck.  Those same issues don't encourage the punter either!

Then if luck does go your way on an unsuitable track and your horse is a useful gelding you get rorted by the handicapping system.  I've said it many a time on BOAY - I owned a very useful galloper who ran 1:20 at Te Rapa and returned a cheque everytime he raced.  Lost money overall as an owner!  BUT would have made money if the tracks had been more consistent and he was handicapped out of contention.

[barryb]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Don't disagree.

But as an Owner what was/is worse is pitching up with your horse for a targeted race and the track condition is a lottery or worse unsafe.  Doesn't matter then how much the stake was/is or how good or well trained the horse was/is as it becomes luck.  Those same issues don't encourage the punter either!

Then if luck does go your way on an unsuitable track and your horse is a useful gelding you get rorted by the handicapping system.  I've said it many a time on BOAY - I owned a very useful galloper who ran 1:20 at Te Rapa and returned a cheque everytime he raced.  Lost money overall as an owner!  BUT would have made money if the tracks had been more consistent and he was handicapped out of contention.

No point in fixing tracks if no owners are left Chief.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, barryb said:

No point in fixing tracks if no owners are left Chief.

Well that's where we are at.  No point closing down good tracks either and pissing the money away on white elephants (AWT's) and stakes and not fixing the turf tracks (e.g. Riccarton).

Get back to the core fundamentals - horse racing other horse's on a consistent and safe turf surface.  Which equals a quality product that punters have confidence in punting on which leads to more revenue which leads to better returns to Owners.  Don't get the cart before the horse.

FFS @barryb assuming you are an owner you can't tell me you haven't been really pissed off with some of the surfaces that your horses have had to run on.

[barryb]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well that's where we are at.  No point closing down good tracks either and pissing the money away on white elephants (AWT's) and stakes and not fixing the turf tracks (e.g. Riccarton).

Get back to the core fundamentals - horse racing other horse's on a consistent and safe turf surface.  Which equals a quality product that punters have confidence in punting on which leads to more revenue which leads to better returns to Owners.  Don't get the cart before the horse.

So I am guessing you fully support Ellerslie's proposal to improve there track and increase stakes, for mine its a fabulous idea. Holding onto the hill for 2 races a year is bloody madness when you can see what that money is going to do.

[barryb]

24 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

FFS @barryb assuming you are an owner you can't tell me you haven't been really pissed off with some of the surfaces that your horses have had to run on.

I own 2 right now & have raced plenty over the last 10 plus years.

Yes of course some of the surfaces are poor, but I was a farking sight more pissed off at racing for a total stake of $7k, $10k now is still farcical when you take into account the nutty idea of everyone getting a small share of the stake, this has kicked in the guts the winning owner again.

The minimum stake in NZ should be $15k for maidens from August 1, Saturday racing should be a min of $35k, open class $50k, mid week and Sunday rating 65 & above should be $20k. Jumps racing $20k min & open jumps $35k min. The max stake should be $100k unless funded by sponsors or the club.

We are a feeder provincial area for Australia & need to stop deluding ourselves. Lets bloody look after the middle tier people and create a decent product with a fair reward for all.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by barryb

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, barryb said:

So I am guessing you fully support Ellerslie's proposal to improve there track and increase stakes, for mine its a fabulous idea. Holding onto the hill for 2 races a year is bloody madness when you can see what that money is going to do.

Yes I support it.  But they don't need to sell the hill to achieve what they are aiming to do.  If they are committed to that location then selling off the hill and reducing the land available is ludicrous.

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, barryb said:

The minimum stake in NZ should be $15k for maidens from August 1, Saturday racing should be a min of $35k, open class $50k, mid week and Sunday rating 65 & above should be $20k. Jumps racing $20k min & open jumps $35k min. The max stake should be $100k unless funded by sponsors or the club.

You could achieve much of what you are proposing now by dropping the stupid tiered racing structure and reducing and redistributing top end stakes.  We are in dreamland at the moment with our Group Racing.  If we don't redistribute and quickly then watch the status of many of our Group races go through the floor.  Even if you redistributed the stakes to the bottom end you would still get the same horses running around.  

We need to start again and build back up.

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes I support it.  But they don't need to sell the hill to achieve what they are aiming to do.  If they are committed to that location then selling off the hill and reducing the land available is ludicrous.

How is it Fake News?  

Sure raise money and build a Strathayr but the proposed Stake structure is egotistical wank and would join the AWT's as changes that will kill Thoroughbred Racing in NZ.  

It distorts the market by utilising industry capital that Ellerslie has built up through gift and subsidisation.  

[barryb]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

How is it Fake News?  

Tell us how?. You make stacks of statements that are broad and unsupported by any fact.

[barryb]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You could achieve much of what you are proposing now by dropping the stupid tiered racing structure and reducing and redistributing top end stakes.  We are in dreamland at the moment with our Group Racing.  If we don't redistribute and quickly then watch the status of many of our Group races go through the floor.  Even if you redistributed the stakes to the bottom end you would still get the same horses running around.  

We need to start again and build back up.

Bang on. 

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, barryb said:

Tell us how?. You make stacks of statements that are broad and unsupported by any fact.

Just did above.  The proposed stake structure at Ellerslie will do the opposite to what they think it will do.  It will weaken the rest of the clubs just as the $48 million invested in the AWT's will do.  

Look at OZ they are doing the opposite they are investing in their country and provincial clubs just as much if not more than the metro clubs.  Why?  Because it develops and sustains interest in racing in disparate communities.  What are we doing?  Centralising to locations where we have to compete with every other show in town and creating a high cost delivery model.

[curious]

18 minutes ago, barryb said:

I own 2 right now & have raced plenty over the last 10 plus years.

Yes of course some of the surfaces are poor, but I was a farking sight more pissed off at racing for a total stake of $7k, $10k now is still farcical when you take into account the nutty idea of everyone getting a small share of the stake, this has kicked in the guts the winning owner again.

The minimum stake in NZ should be $15k for maidens from August 1, Saturday racing should be a min of $35k, open class $50k, mid week and Sunday rating 65 & above should be $20k. Jumps racing $20k min & open jumps $35k min. The max stake should be $100k unless funded by sponsors or the club.

We are a feeder provincial area for Australia & need to stop deluding ourselves. Lets bloody look after the middle tier people and create a decent product with a fair reward for all.

 

I haven't done the sums but that makes good sense. Can we afford it?

[barryb]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Just did above.  The proposed stake structure at Ellerslie will do the opposite to what they think it will do.  It will weaken the rest of the clubs just as the $48 million invested in the AWT's will do.  

Look at OZ they are doing the opposite they are investing in their country and provincial clubs just as much if not more than the metro clubs.  Why?  Because it develops and sustains interest in racing in disparate communities.  What are we doing?  Centralising to locations where we have to compete with every other show in town and creating a high cost delivery model.

Crap, you stated above that no one attends anymore so using that theory it doesnt matter a shit where the races are held. What high cost delivery model? 

Using Pitman as an example, I bet his delivery model a bloody cheaper at Riccarton than at Timaru?. His owners are happier at Riccarton as is he.

[barryb]

2 minutes ago, curious said:

I haven't done the sums but that makes good sense. Can we afford it?

Sure can Curious, using some rather crude calcs it works out bloody good for the low/mid tier trainer/owner.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, barryb said:

Crap, you stated above that no one attends anymore so using that theory it doesnt matter a shit where the races are held. What high cost delivery model? 

Correct.  What did I say that contradicts that?  Hell Cambridge proved you don't need people on course nor flash facilities to have a race meeting!

1 minute ago, barryb said:

Using Pitman as an example, I bet his delivery model a bloody cheaper at Riccarton than at Timaru?. His owners are happier at Riccarton as is he.

His delivery model might be but I bet he won't pass on any cost savings to his owners.

The $48 million invested in AWT's might reduce Pitty's training costs or make his life easier but just because Pitty is better off doesn't make the industry as a whole better off.  The $48 million is invested in AWT's which are a higher cost to service and maintain than a turf track.  We can't maintain our premier turf tracks because we don't have sufficient income.  There is no evidence that the AWT's will produce enough extra revenue to cover their own operational and maintenance costs let alone have any left over to fix the premier turf tracks.

Now places like Timaru and Riverton have excellent turf tracks and are run by clubs that pay their way - i.e. they are low cost.  Riccarton is relying on the capital from a Timaru cash up to fix their own turf track however it is unlikely to be anywhere enough.

 

[barryb]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

His delivery model might be but I bet he won't pass on any cost savings to his owners.

Are you saying that Pitman over charges his owners? 

He wouldn't be so sucessful if he wasn't looking after his people.

[Pitman]

1 hour ago, barryb said:

Are you saying that Pitman over charges his owners? 

He wouldn't be so sucessful if he wasn't looking after his people.

Thankyou

Listen up chief and stop talking shit!!

We own and I drive our own floats to all meetings. Over Xmas racing I am very busy but winning races and adrenalin gets you through!!

We have a six and a nine horse truck plus 2 x 3 horse trailer floats and we charge considerably less than public transport operators do which in affect is reducing costs to our owners. Personally I prefer not to travel too far these days,   but do so for Feature Race Days Such as Riverton, Otago, Cromwell, Ashburton, Timaru, Oamaru, Gore

We also support Reefton because the bloke running there - REEFTON - is a bloody good bloke I don’t support INVERCARGILL or Greymouth because....., well, opposite of the reasons I support Reefton

When the AWT is in use that will mean more days racing at Riccarton so maybe less travel, though they will only be industry days, not what we aim for generally speaking.

More racing at Riccarton, less travel,  less cost, looking forward to when this all happens, too right.

[Reefton]

3 hours ago, Pitman said:

Thankyou

Listen up chief and stop talking shit!!

We own and I drive our own floats to all meetings. Over Xmas racing I am very busy but winning races and adrenalin gets you through!!

We have a six and a nine horse truck plus 2 x 3 horse trailer floats and we charge considerably less than public transport operators do which in affect is reducing costs to our owners. Personally I prefer not to travel too far these days,   but do so for Feature Race Days Such as Riverton, Otago, Cromwell, Ashburton, Timaru, Oamaru, Gore

We also support Reefton because the bloke running there - REEFTON - is a bloody good bloke I don’t support INVERCARGILL or Greymouth because....., well, opposite of the reasons I support Reefton

When the AWT is in use that will mean more days racing at Riccarton so maybe less travel, though they will only be industry days, not what we aim for generally speaking.

More racing at Riccarton, less travel,  less cost, looking forward to when this all happens, too right.

Thank you for the kind words Pitty and I can categorically state that having been in a syndicate with a VERY prominent NZ syndicator and at least one other VERY prominent and successful Trainer in this Country the Pitman charges are minimal by comparison.  AND more importantly he doesn't get big ideas about what horses are capable of and spend vast sums of money on travel(probably reflects having to drive the float himself). I would almost have sworn the aforementioned syndicate Manager had either shares in or kickbacks from the Float companies the way the horses used to trip about.

 

[Reefton]

4 hours ago, barryb said:

Crap, you stated above that no one attends anymore so using that theory it doesnt matter a shit where the races are held. What high cost delivery model? 

Using Pitman as an example, I bet his delivery model a bloody cheaper at Riccarton than at Timaru?. His owners are happier at Riccarton as is he.

To be fair Pitty(as he says) chases the best money and usually that is at Riccarton in the south.  If there is a feature meeting he will go elsewhere obviously and I imagine will have a good team in at Wingatui on Friday.  He makes it quite clear that Riccarton pisses him off with its irrigation policies and incompetent implantation of them resulting in lanes but that of course is the idiot idea of plastering water on inconsistently and too close to raceday.  As a small scale owner of his I get pissed off too when the continual excuse of getting onto the wrong part of the Riccarton track is trotted out (and before anyone blames the jockeys Pitty legs up one of them at Cup time was one of NZ's very best and the same thing happened)