Old Topic on Industry Funding.

[Chief Stipe]

15 hours ago, Reefton said:

What they(MRP) have said is they should not irrigate so close to raceday and in particular not with irrigation gear that is clearly not up to it(as evidenced by the fact that it creates lanes on the track

Two causes identified there.  If the irrigation gear is not up to scratch and apparently hasn't been for years why hasn't that problem been fixed?  When will it be fixed?  Why aren't you and Pitty and every other trainer at Riccarton banging on Mill's door demanding action?

The lanes are again a symptom of the underlying cause - irregular irrigation would make it worse but the problem is the soil and structure.

15 hours ago, Reefton said:

Look at her prior form (and the times she had been running for her last 600m) and the race itself.

Her comparative form hasn't been that good Reefton.  Her "good" times were on rock hard tracks but every horse was running "good" times on those tracks. But most horses were running "gooder times".

15 hours ago, Reefton said:

In fact it is my view that that hard race at Riccarton that day

What "that day"?  The one on the 3rd of October of a very very hard G3?  Or the one on an irrigated D4 on the 24th of October?  

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

She had been competitive with Avonello and Follow your Dreams

Over 800m early season dashes.  

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

She didn't run 14.1 lengths last she was 14.1 lengths from the winner you plonker. 

Back to name calling I see.  My apologies I forgot to put in a comma or an and.  She was last and 14 lengths from the winner.

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

Disappointing given how much she promised but hey that is racehorses. 

Promised what?  Did Pitty talk her up?

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

She was been in work since late January with that specific race in mind based on the promise she showed in the spring.  You clearly know absolutely zero about training horses which leads me to my next question - How many winners have you trained Son?

The classic response.  I assure you I know a damn sight more about training race horses than zero.  That aside that doesn't stop me from having an objective opinion based on what I see in a sport that I have been involved in for 50 years.

The irony is that you agree with my assessment.  You "don't see much of a future for your horse" but blame the tracks and one hard race.  Whereas my observation is that she isn't competitive, is weak (which might change given time to grow) and could have been better placed relative to her ability.  Short sprints over the AWT might suit her and get some of your investment back.  

 

[Chief Stipe]

25 minutes ago, Pitman said:

31 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'll resist getting into name calling.  The need to irrigate the way they do is symptomatic of an underlying problem or cause.  The unven water distribution is not caused by irrigation but the underlying problem.

Can I ask an honest easy answered question stipe

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU STEPPED FOOT ON THE RICCARTON COURSE PROPER?

I could ask you the same question Pitty.  If you have stepped on it lately it has been with your eyes closed.

Still waiting for answers from the Trainer with the most invested in the Premier South Island Turf Track who won't race on the AWT:

1. When will the Turf Track be renovated?
2. What is the plan and what will be done?
3. When will they purchase or fix the irrigation equipment?

Surely you are banging on Mill's door every morning and asking those questions because it is in your self interest to do so.

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

You have told us often enough about your turf management degree and bagged the efforts of farmers and amateur trackmen all the way well let me point out that they had all the experts attend to the Riccarton track 20 or 25 years ago and look how well that has gone . 

25 YEARS AGO!!!!!!  FFS name ONE metropolitan track in Sydney or Melbourne that hasn't had at least TWO track renovations in the last 25 years!!

The irony of your statement is you are agreeing the track is fucked!  Arguably for the last 25 years!!!  Yet you expect doing nothing is going to fix it!!  Lunacy!  Do you add a few extra Hail Mary's for the track when doing your penance?

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

Rarely in the interim has it been consistently up to scratch although this last 6-8 months has been an absolute disaster.

Reefton haven't you been looking at the track for the last decade?  Interesting how your focus has changed because you have skin in the game and are watching your horse race around a shite track.

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

But if there is a problem with that track then listening to 'experts' like you with a heap of letters after their name is as much the cause as anything. 

Bullshit.  You know as well as I do that there are Accountants with heaps of letters after their names that are shit at their jobs.  Hell some of them have even made it up to high positions in racing administration.  Before you jump up and down I'm not referring to you.  But you know who I'm talking about because I've seen some of your criticism.

Then again there are heaps that do have the letters after their names that are good.

Either way it is irrelevant as the fact is the Riccarton Turf Track needs renovating.  You, I, and even Pitty agree on that plus a damn sight more!

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

I am almost getting to the stage of hoping the AWT at Riccarton is a raging success if only to shut you up.

No chance but disappointing you would even consider abandoning your principles just to score a point!

I'll keep hammering away at Riccarton until I see a plan for fixing the Turf Track.  But I won't hold my breath waiting.  Hell they are spending $16m without a business case/plan and praying for a miracle.  Hell Sunday church service must be full with all you South Island Racing stakeholders sitting on the pews waiting for divine assistance!

[Pitman]

chief ANSWER THE QUESTION when was the last time you stepped on the course proper at Riccarton?

I am there most mornings Personally I think there is nothing wrong with the track when not irrigated close to race day

Prime example was when they couldn’t irrigate due to broken pipe. That is the best the track has been since first day of NZ CUP CARNIVAL 

The CJC plans don’t worry me to the extent it obviously worries you

I have never said I will not race on the AWT just that we prefer to race our team at feature and premier days, we will run some maidens on it unless there is a difference in stake money in the new season between industry and feature maidens, but that’s 12 months away. We will have a great training facility between then and now, as you keep pointing out $15 mill training and trials tracks👍🏻

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, Pitman said:

chief ANSWER THE QUESTION when was the last time you stepped on the course proper at Riccarton?

Answer mine first:

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Still waiting for answers from the Trainer with the most invested in the Premier South Island Turf Track who won't race on the AWT:

1. When will the Turf Track be renovated?
2. What is the plan and what will be done?
3. When will they purchase or fix the irrigation equipment?

Surely you are banging on Mill's door every morning and asking those questions because it is in your self interest to do so.

 

18 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I am there most mornings Personally I think there is nothing wrong with the track when not irrigated close to race day

Prime example was when they couldn’t irrigate due to broken pipe. That is the best the track has been since first day of NZ CUP CARNIVAL 

So you have to rely on a broken irrigation pipe to produce what YOU think is a good track?  Many trainers wouldn't have called it a "good track"!

19 minutes ago, Pitman said:

The CJC plans don’t worry me to the extent it obviously worries you

Pitty that is what really annoys me about you.  You are mouth of the south when it comes to racing, you admit that the Riccarton Track is stuffed and yet you are not worried about it!  Don't you feel you have some responsibility as the leading south island trainer to lobby for the track to be fixed?

Full credit to those North Island trainers that try to hold the CJC to account when they produce tracks that are too hard and unsafe.  Be warned now that if more tracks are produced like the ones last spring then watch those Guineas races go north. 

What's more you promote the AWT which you admit you have very little interest in racing on!!

[Pitman]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Answer mine first:

What I expected

So you have to rely on a broken irrigation pipe to produce what YOU think is a good track?  Many trainers wouldn't have called it a "good track"! 

It was a good track

Pitty that is what really annoys me about you.  You are mouth of the south when it comes to racing, you admit that the Riccarton Track is stuffed and yet you are not worried about it!  Don't you feel you have some responsibility as the leading south island trainer to lobby for the track to be fixed?

I have never said the track is stuffed I think it is the best firm track in the country so why would I need to lobby to get it fixed

Full credit to those North Island trainers that try to hold the CJC to account when they produce tracks that are too hard and unsafe.  Be warned now that if more tracks are produced like the ones last spring then watch those Guineas races go north. 

Guineas are safe at Riccarton

What's more you promote the AWT which you admit you have very little interest in racing on!!

Its the stake money that will dictate whether and what we race on it

Stop twisting things to suit your self answer my question

 

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

It was a good track

This is what Pitty calls a "good track":

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

Guineas are safe at Riccarton

Then expect more irrigation.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

Its the stake money that will dictate whether and what we race on it

I would have thought that it was placing your horses to optimise the return to your owners.

Winning a $15k race is better than running down the track in a $50k race.

[Pitman]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I would have thought that it was placing your horses to optimise the return to your owners.

Winning a $15k race is better than running down the track in a $50k race.

Of course it is how many $15k races do you think will be run on AWT?

[Nostradamus]

First of all look at how the rest of the world runs the show!!

Abolish the absolute nonsense the TAB as they are the biggest downfall in the industry sucking the very life out of it.

A proper education system for young people to boost the quality of staff and jockeys,

Industry days can be run slightly different as in the rating system can be tweaked for the lesser go around, you could have on these days just maidens and revamped rating 60, rating 70 and 80 should help those who can never get a start because it's rated 2 points out everytime 

Trails should not be mandatory but choice,and NO horse should start a career with a rating when they have never had a race day start!! 

Track surfaces are an embarrassment to the country hence very little money overseas is bet on here,

Get rid of the fool at the top BS really does stand for what comes out of his mouth,

And finally actual have an idea instead of backtracking because everyone is to scared to have change and all live in the past wakey wakey it's 2021 not 1975!!!!

[nomates]

I see next seasons calander is out with programmes for the first 3 months showing no changes to stakes , at all . I thought the powers that be were making substantial profit gains , seems not .

Or 2 months out from the new season do they simply not know how much they have to play with . 

Both scenarios give me faint hope that we are moving forward .

[curious]

16 hours ago, nomates said:

Both scenarios give me faint hope that we are moving forward .

What gives you the faint hope?

[Freda]

19 hours ago, nomates said:

I see next seasons calander is out with programmes for the first 3 months showing no changes to stakes , at all . I thought the powers that be were making substantial profit gains , seems not .

Or 2 months out from the new season do they simply not know how much they have to play with . 

Both scenarios give me faint hope that we are moving forward .

I can't understand where the supposed gains are coming from.  I wouldn't have thought that the axeing of radio/printed information services, and the running-down of on-course tote options, would save as much money as touted.    Equally, I can't understand why the b/s about covid causing such hardship to the TAB keeps getting trotted out.

Surely, with racing in Australia available during that period, and  no stakes or ancillary services to provide, the results should have been positive, not negative?

[Chief Stipe]

53 minutes ago, Freda said:

Equally, I can't understand why the b/s about covid causing such hardship to the TAB keeps getting trotted out.

Surely, with racing in Australia available during that period, and  no stakes or ancillary services to provide, the results should have been positive, not negative?

Absolutely 100% correct Freda.  From the information that was published TAB NZ did very well during 2020.  Well as well as normal.  PLUS they weren't shy in taking the Government assistance that was on offer on top of the $35m bailout they got.

I notice they didn't have the gall to apply for the second tranche of assistance probably because they weren't eligible as they had done so well during the first lockdown.

[nomates]

Plus from what some posters have banged on about they have slashed 20mil in cost cutting , perhaps a shuffling of the deck chairs was all that really happened .

[Chief Stipe]

43 minutes ago, nomates said:

Plus from what some posters have banged on about they have slashed 20mil in cost cutting , perhaps a shuffling of the deck chairs was all that really happened .

You shouldn't listen to @JJ Flash and his sources.  The devil is always in the detail and we are not getting much detail.  Both TAB NZ and for that matter the codes administrators have closed shop in terms of transparency.  Saundry did it the moment he started and now it looks like Woodham is doing the same which you would expect when you consider where he came from.  Who knows what Hughes does.

TAB NZ keep saying they are well ahead of budget but we don't know what that budget is except that it is below last years!

August is a crunch month in terms of TAB NZ's solvency - that's when the $35m short term bank loan is up for renewal.  They will be pouring money into an account to have a fallback if the banks give them the finger.  

[JJ Flash]

22 hours ago, nomates said:

I see next seasons calander is out with programmes for the first 3 months showing no changes to stakes , at all . I thought the powers that be were making substantial profit gains , seems not .

Or 2 months out from the new season do they simply not know how much they have to play with . 

Both scenarios give me faint hope that we are moving forward .

You can blame the codes for failing to address that issue Bob. Part of new Racing Act saw TAB taken out of deciding who got how much. That rests now with RacingNZ board. Only problem is no independents have been appointed, as yet . Minister has given the 3 codes a strong message to get it sorted though.

Then and only  then will the respective codes know how much they have to fund their operations and stakes in the upcoming season

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by JJ Flash

[JJ Flash]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

TAB NZ keep saying they are well ahead of budget but we don't know what that budget is except that it is below last years!

Can you show us where you came up with his bit of info- thanks in advance

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

You can blame the codes for failing to address that issue Bob. Part of new Racing Act saw TAB taken out of deciding who got how much.

What @nomates said was:

22 hours ago, nomates said:

Or 2 months out from the new season do they simply not know how much they have to play with . 

Doesn't matter who is doing what for TAB NZ to indicate to the codes how big the pot is!!!!!

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Can you show us where you came up with his bit of info- thanks in advance

@JJ Flash we have discussed this before.  Compare the 2021 budget figures vs last years actual.

From their website half yearly - subtract 6 from 14 and you get 8 i.e. they budgeted for 8% LESS:

Total turnover was $1,589 million, which was $89 million (6 percent) above last year and $190 million above budget (14 percent). 

 

[nomates]

37 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

You can blame the codes for failing to address that issue Bob. Part of new Racing Act saw TAB taken out of deciding who got how much. That rests now with RacingNZ board. Only problem is no independents have been appointed, as yet . Minister has given the 3 codes a strong message to get it sorted though.

Then and only  then will the respective codes know how much they have to fund their operations and stakes in the upcoming season

 

HAHAHAHA , hook line and sinker . I have no problem that we have opposing views , but you do seem to only rear your head in defence of the poor management of racing , but never get into the debates around how to fix things or give initiatives to achieve better results . Yet you have plenty of negativity around your area of supposed expertise , harness .

How then can they put out stakes for next season , which are the same as this , if they don't know how much they have to play with , could be a lot less than they played with this year , after all covid has had a damaging effect on their business , apparently . Dangerous game , but they have the 20mil in cost cuttings to fall back on .

I wont be holding my breath that there is going to be substantial increases , which is going to be required to give participants confidence to continue . 

One training partnership in the CD has recently finished because of how tough it is , how many more , and how many can the industry sustain losing .

 

 

[JJ Flash]

20 minutes ago, nomates said:

HAHAHAHA , hook line and sinker . I have no problem that we have opposing views , but you do seem to only rear your head in defence of the poor management of racing , but never get into the debates around how to fix things or give initiatives to achieve better results . Yet you have plenty of negativity around your area of supposed expertise , harness .

You have found your rightful home Bob. I tried to give you an update on whats going on and you throw this reply  back at me.

One last time, at this  point the sum total of distribution is the same as last season plus a few extra million which was distributed  recently.

None of the codes can say how much they are specifically getting as that is up to the codes income/returns via GBM's in last year. That is to be decided by new RacingNZ board. that's its only job. 

In case you have not noticed i have been highly critical of previous boards and management of all codes and TAB . New TAB board and management is very good IMHO as is the departure of Jackson at NZTR. Harness is in massive decline and basically not fixable.No economies of scale, hopeless governance, management and declining popularity in terms of ownership., .breeding and gambling. Will end up as basically a hobby sport in the coming decades. 

Have no idea re Hounds but they do seem to have some integrity issues and a failed Chair running the show.