Gammalite Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Unhinged said: Unfortunately after talking to a few senior drivers today Ross is on a hiding to nothing, there are a few reasons why Ross steered back to the inside safety and horse welfare again Unfortunately don't get recognized. Punter perception seems to be the overriding factor in stipes decisions. All this discussion about a difficult to drive horse ,named SAGINAW , who was rank outsider in a little race. I still think of KRUG on CUP DAY 10th Nov, a heavily favoured runner , driven by a driver everyone here seems to like named BLAIR ORANGE. race was Race 8 The Sires Stakes Final. A feature Group 1 race. KRUG sat one -one all the way getting beautiful trip. (like Saginaw on Friday). Then KRUG refused to move to outside as they turned in to home straight around the death horse. This can happen now and then !!!!!. So Blair steers it back to inside , gets badly held up , and only runs 4th . Huge amount of money lost on it. WHO's at fault ??? Trainer? Driver? Horse? or Punter? (they all lost) and Blair didn't get time for that driving decision? maybe should of for failure to get horse to outside lol............ Why should Ross then? Advice >>>>>>>Just tell stewards horse difficult to drive Ross !!!! and Superbass was shifting wider early in straight as well , making it harder to come around it than earlier as well. And point out Krug lol...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowornever Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 18 hours ago, Big Bang said: It's quite simple. The rule Ross is being charged with is failing to take all reasonable and permissible measures to finish in the highest possible position. Whether it was an error in judgement or an issue with the horse. It looked bad, especially with so much room to come out at the top of the straight. Jason is right. The punishment will look significant considering that Ross drives very little. He's done an excellent job with that horse. He was a rogue, but the recent performances have been excellent. Will be interested to see how he goes tomorrow. Another not so good drive again today(Took too long to get the lead, and then went for the horse far too early) but he has been driving like that since he started driving and butchered many other drives in similar fashion to his last start indiscretion, so par for the course really. The dividend you get for his drives is usually priced in and reflects his ability as a driver. Saginaw would have been 1.80 today with Orange driving and would have won. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 28 minutes ago, Nowornever said: (Took too long to get the lead, and then went for the horse far too early Came home in 58.4 half and a 30 second last quarter. Couldn't of gone for it hard enough IMO lol... 30 minutes ago, Nowornever said: Saginaw would have been 1.80 today with Orange driving and would have won. Blair O .mmmm 10 drives for No Wins today . hope you not putting too much on ...... might of been 18.00 for Saginaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 19 hours ago, JTeaz said: Yes there are aggravating factors but fact remains he is guilty of breaching the rule he has been charged with. If he had hooked him.out and gone nowhere it wouldnt have been an issue. The fact he hooked him into a pocket and looked desperately unlucky is an integrity issue and ANY stipe will tell you the only people they are there to serve is the PUNTER. Nothing agaianst Ross.Hes a good honest battler but he will get a long stint away from driving for this one By golly you guys are harsh. Olivia Thornley got a stretch of time too. HOW on earth are drivers supposed to improve when they get long suspensions when not had many drives. ? don't understand it. I posted about KRUG above , in the Group 1 sires stakes . Do you think a long stint would help Blair. I got suspensions while learning on 3 occasions . WASTE OF TIME . you come back less experienced than getting drives in the meanwhile. (POOR Olivia , just sad) I put John McMullen over the fence too lol, and down into the lagoon at Redcliffe , came up out of the lagoon like the 'Swamp creature' lol. .....was worth the suspension !! lol.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 20 hours ago, JTeaz said: ANY stipe will tell you the only people they are there to serve is the PUNTER. 12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: That is utter Bullshit. If ANY stipe says that they only serve the punter then they should be sacked. Fully agree with Chief on this one. Stewards do not serve the punter. A Steward's responsibility is to enforce the rules of the code they are overseeing on the day. This should be done equally among all participants without any favoritism or bias. Anything other than that and they should be disciplined for their indiscretions. Unfortunately, that would mean integrity, at least at their level, was being upheld. That's something that is rarely or never seen within NZ racing scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTeaz Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Yankiwi said: Fully agree with Chief on this one. Stewards do not serve the punter. A Steward's responsibility is to enforce the rules of the code they are overseeing on the day. This should be done equally among all participants without any favoritism or bias. Anything other than that and they should be disciplined for their indiscretions. Unfortunately, that would mean integrity, at least at their level, was being upheld. That's something that is rarely or never seen within NZ racing scene. I am repeating what i was told in the stipes room on more then 1 occasion. I dont agree, however its what they believe. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 10 hours ago, JTeaz said: I am repeating what i was told in the stipes room on more then 1 occasion. I dont agree, however its what they believe. No wonder Trainers, Drivers and Owners are getting disillusioned with the game. Funny how the Stipes say they are only there for a group that the have no direct contact with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: No wonder Trainers, Drivers and Owners are getting disillusioned with the game. Funny how the Stipes say they are only there for a group that the have no direct contact with. I believe stewards do a great job. For Drivers : rules applied/enforced to provide a Safe working environment for the combatants. For trainers : swabs, raids, horse Race gear items listed and enforced , tactics quizzed multiple runners ,etc to provide a Level playing field. For Punters : monitoring of betting activity, quiz of failure of heavy supported runners in races, etc. Like a Ref at the footy, stipes are not liked by some, But are definitely doing a necessary Job. Just don't be disillusioned by the odd decision not going your way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 5, 2021 Author Share Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gammalite said: I believe stewards do a great job. For Drivers : rules applied/enforced to provide a Safe working environment for the combatants. For trainers : swabs, raids, horse Race gear items listed and enforced , tactics quizzed multiple runners ,etc to provide a Level playing field. For Punters : monitoring of betting activity, quiz of failure of heavy supported runners in races, etc. Like a Ref at the footy, stipes are not liked by some, But are definitely doing a necessary Job. Just don't be disillusioned by the odd decision not going your way. Whether they do a great job is for me defined by the consistency in which they apply the rules and whether they do it in an equal and fair way. It is only in recent years in the south island that this has been the case.Go back a couple of decades and before and the stipes were at times bullies,turning a blind eye to some while they were tormentors of the small players who they took a dislike to. Some of them were not deserving of any respect,and got none from many. Times have changed,new personal have taken over,and the stipes today do a very good job. This is reflected in the matter currently being discussed.Not once has it been suggested on this thread that Cameron has been the subject of greater interest from the stipes previously. It is only the one drive that he has been subject to scrutiny over. What i do take from this thread is again when it comes to harness racing things get taken more personally and people defend others not based on merit, but based on the matter being argued around personalities.Because of that things are magnified to a level they never need to be.And the ones responsible for that are those who make it about personalities. In effect the flaws in the argument of those making it about personalities only highlight the individual to a greater degree than was necessary. Edited September 5, 2021 by the galah 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Gammalite said: I believe stewards do a great job. For Drivers : rules applied/enforced to provide a Safe working environment for the combatants. For trainers : swabs, raids, horse Race gear items listed and enforced , tactics quizzed multiple runners ,etc to provide a Level playing field. For Punters : monitoring of betting activity, quiz of failure of heavy supported runners in races, etc. Like a Ref at the footy, stipes are not liked by some, But are definitely doing a necessary Job. Just don't be disillusioned by the odd decision not going your way. But that apparently ISN'T the case as @JTeaz and a number of posters tell us they are there for the sole benefit of punters. BTW it isn't the Stipes role to monitor betting activity on behalf of punters - they monitor Driver/Trainer betting activity in relation to the rules of racing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 Posts off topic have been moved to this topic in The Vent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 (edited) 20 hours ago, JTeaz said: I am repeating what i was told in the stipes room on more then 1 occasion. I dont agree, however its what they believe. I don't doubt you Jason. Question for everyone, if that's the case, how was Peter Lamb looking after the punters interests? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/racing-long-time-harness-starter-peter-lamb-sacked-following-chaotic-new-zealand-cup/YK4RYMCWPHZGJAWE2ARZDPNV2M/ Sounded to me the Stewards were looking after another Steward, right? Edited September 6, 2021 by Yankiwi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, the galah said: Whether they do a great job is for me defined by the consistency in which they apply the rules and whether they do it in an equal and fair way. Son shouted me to the Gabba AFL final for Fathers Day present. Excellent game ! but Lions sadly lost by a point. People were booing and throwing things at the umpires at the final siren as they walked off !!!!!!! seriously the amount of abuse was terrifying. Officials doing their job as best they see it. Strong comparison with Stipes . People lie to them !! I lied to them .(just blamed horse usually) it is an impossible job. They are/were/sometimes hated because they effect your living and operation. In the 90's All that whip stuff started up . Stewards fined drivers all over the place. They came down stable area to inspect horses arses after a race to look for welts even !! , so they could fine you. we hated the bastards lol.. so gave the driving away altogeather along with abut 15 other drivers. But really the stipes just doing a job. Edited September 6, 2021 by Gammalite 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 10, 2021 Share Posted September 10, 2021 I was thinking about Ross Cameron's 2nd out of 4 drives for the month and @Gammalite's nostalgic trips reminded me of one Richard "Rails" Brosnan. If the "gaps hadn't opened like the Red Sea" for No Response in that final would R Brosnan have got 12 months holiday? The other thought I had is punters knew the risk of backing Saginaw which was reflected in the price it was paying at 8/8 in the betting. The price would have been discounted heavily if Blair Orange was the driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 10, 2021 Author Share Posted September 10, 2021 Cameron back in form with a top tactical drive to win the last. Can't keep a good man down. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 On 10/09/2021 at 9:36 PM, the galah said: Cameron back in form with a top tactical drive to win the last. Can't keep a good man down. Saginaw was racing a lot better than it was the previous week. The pace slackened at just the right time on the Showgrounds bend. What many Grandstand drivers don't realise is how different the Showgrounds bend is compared to the home bend. The latter is considerably tighter. That said Saginaw didn't need to be tapped up to keep up nor did it need the ear plugs released. No doubt @the galah is doing a full behind the scenes inquiry. I have no connection to the stable but my observation is that the horse clips itself and I'm guessing that after the Sarah O'Reilly bumper cart drive (which no doubt the punters approved of) the horse was a bit sore, its training was slackened a bit and the recent racing has got it fitter. No doubt ALL the punters got on at $12's and are not so critical this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 11, 2021 Author Share Posted September 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Saginaw was racing a lot better than it was the previous week. The pace slackened at just the right time on the Showgrounds bend. What many Grandstand drivers don't realise is how different the Showgrounds bend is compared to the home bend. The latter is considerably tighter. That said Saginaw didn't need to be tapped up to keep up nor did it need the ear plugs released. No doubt @the galah is doing a full behind the scenes inquiry. I have no connection to the stable but my observation is that the horse clips itself and I'm guessing that after the Sarah O'Reilly bumper cart drive (which no doubt the punters approved of) the horse was a bit sore, its training was slackened a bit and the recent racing has got it fitter. No doubt ALL the punters got on at $12's and are not so critical this week. You've got the theories thing going today. I just thought he had confidence in the horse and drove it the way he felt it was travelling. You don't actually see many making the move he did from the position he was in,but it was the winning of the race. I never invested on it,but hopefully those who have recently stuck with the ship knowing that his winning drive was more in keeping with camerons driving ability. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 1 hour ago, the galah said: but hopefully those who have recently stuck with the ship knowing that his winning drive was more in keeping with camerons driving ability. Eh? Are you now saying that his driving ability is greater than people give him credit for? Not that he gets much chance to display his ability having had only 32 drives this season. Although his strike rate has got better since he became a Public Trainer 8 starts ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 28 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Eh? Are you now saying that his driving ability is greater than people give him credit for? Not that he gets much chance to display his ability having had only 32 drives this season. Although his strike rate has got better since he became a Public Trainer 8 starts ago. Who knows what you are getting at.Hes a trainer/driver i have had a bit of success investing on. Always have had confidence in his driving ability. That doesn't mean i'm like you and can't recognise when he gets it wrong. Islas joy at motukarara paying about $50 a couple of years ago is one that springs to mind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Eh? Are you now saying that his driving ability is greater than people give him credit for? Same could be said for The Brodsters friend Kelvin John Vincent. Edited September 12, 2021 by Rangatira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 18 hours ago, the galah said: That doesn't mean i'm like you and can't recognise when he gets it wrong. Well if you get your way you won't be backing him for months. Even though you are happy to take the premium price that he offers when driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Well if you get your way you won't be backing him for months. Even though you are happy to take the premium price that he offers when driving. "If i get my way". Whatever. You do talk a load of rubbish a lot. What i have to do with making,breaking or enforcing the rules is unknown to me. This is a typical chief stipe reply. When you have no merit in what you say,you make it about personalities.You do it a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, the galah said: "If i get my way". Whatever. You do talk a load of rubbish a lot. What i have to do with making,breaking or enforcing the rules is unknown to me. This is a typical chief stipe reply. When you have no merit in what you say,you make it about personalities.You do it a lot. It is a colloquial figure of speed @the galah. You started this Topic by declaring that Cameron should get a 2 to 3 months so you had a clear opinion on what rule was broken and what the penalty should be. As for "making it about personalities" perhaps I do because I recognise that although the rules can be stated as black and white the interpretation and application of them can be grey. Not that all rules are as black and white as they should. The classic one in that regard being "bringing racing into disrepute"! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 29 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: It is a colloquial figure of speed @the galah. You started this Topic by declaring that Cameron should get a 2 to 3 months so you had a clear opinion on what rule was broken and what the penalty should be. As for "making it about personalities" perhaps I do because I recognise that although the rules can be stated as black and white the interpretation and application of them can be grey. Not that all rules are as black and white as they should. The classic one in that regard being "bringing racing into disrepute"! So you accept you make it about personalities. Is that not an admission that your argument is not strong?And you go beyond that and also make it about the personalities making the comments. There may be grey areas as far as the enforcement of some rules go,but that excuse should only be argued in cases of inconsistent application of the rules.This case does not involve that. You seem to have missed the point of the topic.Cameron is the current focus because of how he drove,not because of who he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, the galah said: So you accept you make it about personalities. Is that not an admission that your argument is not strong?And you go beyond that and also make it about the personalities making the comments. No whether I do or not is a personal opinion. I don't agree. Does you inferring that a Trainer who got done for personal recreational drugs is bound to be using PED's on their horses not making it about personalities? 12 minutes ago, the galah said: There may be grey areas as far as the enforcement of some rules go,but that excuse should only be argued in cases of inconsistent application of the rules.This case does not involve that. Well we don't know in this case how the rules are going to be applied yet. I would argue that the case doesn't warrant the 3 months you advocate. It is you that has pulled "the personalities" card. A standard deflection is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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