Trentham!

[Doomed]

10 hours ago, Reefton said:

problem with the big clubs and their dilapidated facilities probably is attributable to this:- for years they used to get exclusive access to the Amenities Fund and most of those facilities were built using those funds(from the old Racing Authority and early NZRB days).  Now like most outfits that get something for nothing(ie someone else is paying the bill - councils and government departments for instance) they had no appreciation that they should be caring for the assets they had been very generously provided with.  The reasoning being that when they needed replacement the industry would come to the party again and the hundreds of millions or whatever financial assistance was necessary to replace the stuffed facilities(including stuffed tracks) would appear from nowhere as it always had done.  In the meantime of course the industry has gone broke and they are now on their own two feet financially(unless Winnie organised a nice little PGF contribution to facilitate AWTs of course).

The free starting gates and running rails they all got would, I would say, have been the last roll of the dice.

So they have been selling off bits and pieces of surplus property  to keep themselves afloat but the sort of dosh required to replace/bring those facilities up to standard is far too high to fund using the sale proceeds of the family silver.

I know this because the Greymouth Club was in on the act as well(as was each of the 'Metropolitan' Clubs that held all the power under the old District Committee structure).  Greymouth's stand for instance was built 100% funded(about $850,000 as I recall in the mid 80's) by Racing Authority funds - it would be worth $10m to replace so you can see that there is no realistic prospect of them being able to do so.  Not that it needs to be at present though there was a suggestion of earthquake risk a few years back.. Greymouth's admin block and stabling were also courtesy of Racing Authority funds which needless to say caused quite a lot of angst among the other Coast Clubs at the time.  The same would have applied in each District around NZ

Now because the small Clubs had to scrimp for every cent it tended to make them very careful with their spending and very mindful that they had to look after what they had.  There was no fairy Godmother to come along with a fat chequebook and cure all the trouble with their facilities.  And so hence the comparatively strong financial position of many smaller clubs and the precarious state of many big Clubs.  And why the Authorities want to grab the small clubs hard earned assets and in turn why the small clubs are resisting.

Obviously the ARC are an exception in that their property is so valuable they can and have developed strong revenue streams outside their racing activities.

But look at the old 'Metropolitan' Clubs and then think about who has the biggest issues  Southland RC, Otago RC, Canterbury JC, Greymouth JC, Wellington RC, Manawatu RC, Hawkes Bay JC, Waikato RC and Auckland RC. Any common thread there?

They have had hundreds of millions and pissed the lot up against the wall

 

 

 

Very accurate Reefton. And to a degree it was just a matter of luck who got new facilities back in those days: a brand new racecourse at Ruakaka, new stands at New Plymouth, Ellerslie, Omoto, Ashburton, Riccarton, Banks Peninsula. Others, like Timaru and Oamaru, missed out because they didn't really need anything when funds were flush.

We have the ironic situation now where tracks like Westport look clean and tidy and Trentham, HB, Riccarton need a fleet of very big bulldozers.

[Reefton]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

Bang on.

And - I can add  [ although, as a club sec and accountant you will know amounts EXACTLY ]   small clubs have had their funding from TAB revenue selectively attacked over many years;  the percentage and method of distribution has changed over the decades, but their payout is proportionately far less than that of the metropolitan clubs.

So,  then, as money becomes tighter and tighter, and the willing volunteers become older and and just can't be arsed any more, the ageing facilities are pointed at and used as a reason for closure.

Fair comment Pam about the TAB distributions though to be fair I guess we have to have some anomalies there to fund the stakes and group racing programme.  I know I did an analysis twenty years or so back when Chittick and Co wanted to shut all the small clubs down and it showed that invariably the 'big' clubs were all significantly over-funded when their turnovers were compared to the industry funding they received BUT as I say there is justification when you consider the need to fund the glamour events.

I very much doubt that has changed in the last twenty years.

You are also of course quite correct about the age and enthusiasm level of the volunteers in the game.  I am young by comparison to many of them but my motivation just gets less and less and less as time goes by.  Right now for instance I am considering writing a paper analysing  South Island racing's position and(in consultation of course with people far more invested and knowledgeable than I).  The intent would be to come up with some sort a plan/suggestion list to try to rescue our area at least for the current malaise but seriously why would I spend months(and it would be months) writing researching consulting and circulating a report that will just be ignored? I would love to do it because I think I could really produce something constructive but when it is all for nought?  My trip to Cromwell last week just reinforced in me what great people the game involves and a bloody lot of them are hurting badly and desperately need to know that their voices are being heard, their ideas considered and their futures invested in.

And as I have said before it is strange how the likes of Murray Acklin and David Lloyd who would once have been strongly on the other side of the argument with me are now great sounding boards for ideas and critiquing.  

 

 

[Reefton]

16 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Very accurate Reefton. And to a degree it was just a matter of luck who got new facilities back in those days: a brand new racecourse at Ruakaka, new stands at New Plymouth, Ellerslie, Omoto, Ashburton, Riccarton, Banks Peninsula. Others, like Timaru and Oamaru, missed out because they didn't really need anything when funds were flush.

We have the ironic situation now where tracks like Westport look clean and tidy and Trentham, HB, Riccarton need a fleet of very big bulldozers.

yes I guess they had to do something in Whangarei though and it(Ruakaka) does provide nice winter footing if not too much atmosphere.

And yes Westport is clean and tidy all right(wasn't a few months back though!) but I was their Auditor many years back and know a lot of them - that course has enormous local use and a very young, strong and enthusiastic committee.  The presentation of the course is no coincidence

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Reefton

[Freda]

8 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Fair comment Pam about the TAB distributions though to be fair I guess we have to have some anomalies there to fund the stakes and group racing programme.  I know I did an analysis twenty years or so back when Chittick and Co wanted to shut all the small clubs down and it showed that invariably the 'big' clubs were all significantly over-funded when their turnovers were compared to the industry funding they received BUT as I say there is justification when you consider the need to fund the glamour events.

I very much doubt that has changed in the last twenty years.

You are also of course quite correct about the age and enthusiasm level of the volunteers in the game.  I am young by comparison to many of them but my motivation just gets less and less and less as time goes by.  Right now for instance I am considering writing a paper analysing  South Island racing's position and(in consultation of course with people far more invested and knowledgeable than I).  The intent would be to come up with some sort a plan/suggestion list to try to rescue our area at least for the current malaise but seriously why would I spend months(and it would be months) writing researching consulting and circulating a report that will just be ignored? I would love to do it because I think I could really produce something constructive but when it is all for nought?  My trip to Cromwell last week just reinforced in me what great people the game involves and a bloody lot of them are hurting badly and desperately need to know that their voices are being heard, their ideas considered and their futures invested in.

And as I have said before it is strange how the likes of Murray Acklin and David Lloyd who would once have been strongly on the other side of the argument with me are now great sounding boards for ideas and critiquing.  

 

 

You are again quite right about needing to retain some funds for the prestige races.  No one disputes that, it is necessary and important to reward those.

 But it is the extent of the preferential treatment that has been unfair over the years.

I'm sure, if you could be bothered with a report,  you'd get a good bit of buy-in from those two gentlemen mentioned in your post,  and a few others besides. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Freda

[Chief Stipe]

48 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Oh just shoot me

Well you haven't provided any rationale or evidence to support your hypothesis.

[Reefton]

If providing training tracks and facilities is the key to success then Matamata and Cambridge must be the best and most prosperous clubs in NZ?  No way would either of them two have any financial issues and certainly neither would need government funding to put in an AWT?

[Joe Bloggs]

59 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well you haven't provided any rationale or evidence to support your hypothesis.

make it a double barrel job, anything less than a 38 caliber just wont do it.

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

You are again quite right about needing to retain some funds for the prestige races.  No one disputes that, it is necessary and important to reward those.

 But it is the extent of the preferential treatment that has been unfair over the years.

I'm sure, if you could be bothered with a report,  you'd get a good bit of buy-in from those two gentlemen mentioned in your post,  and a few others besides. 

I'm not sure that his report would go down well with the hierarchy currently running racing in the South. They think everything is going quite well and the more tracks they can close down the better for everyone.

I do hope he addresses issues such as the lack of 2yo racing in the South, several months without a 2yo race after the Welcome Stakes, and why there is no 3yo racing in the South for several weeks after the Cup meeting when virtually every meeting in the NI has a 3yo race of some type.

[Freda]

15 minutes ago, Doomed said:

I'm not sure that his report would go down well with the hierarchy currently running racing in the South. They think everything is going quite well and the more tracks they can close down the better for everyone.

I do hope he addresses issues such as the lack of 2yo racing in the South, several months without a 2yo race after the Welcome Stakes, and why there is no 3yo racing in the South for several weeks after the Cup meeting when virtually every meeting in the NI has a 3yo race of some type.

He will, if he can be bothered.  After all, he does have to work for a living, he will know it will be a thankless task, and - as stated - probably ignored.

Two gentlemen, known on these websites,  did a report on handicapping/allowances, some years ago, at their own cost and forwarded it to NZTR.   Goodson and Purcell were the incumbents then.  Don't think Purcell took much notice and Goodson didn't understand it.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Freda

[Joe Bloggs]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

yes I guess they had to do something in Whangarei though and it(Ruakaka) does provide nice winter footing if not too much atmosphere.

And yes Westport is clean and tidy all right(wasn't a few months back though!) but I was their Auditor many years back and know a lot of them - that course has enormous local use and a very young, strong and enthusiastic committee.  The presentation of the course is no coincidence

 

 

Very young, strong and enthusiastic, how refreshing is that, when you look at Petone, pale, stale and failed males it makes you wonder, ponder, just what #couldhavebeen 

I hope you write that paper, the South Island is so different than the North, may as well be two different countries, shame really, common sense, innovation, passion and not a cartel in sight, ''building back stronger' to plagiarise OZ Labour's new catchphrase, just might happen if the SI band of brothers/sisters unite Reefton, bloody good luck to you.

[Reefton]

Just now, Joe Bloggs said:

Very young, strong and enthusiastic, how refreshing is that, when you look at Petone, pale, stale and failed males it makes you wonder, ponder, just what #couldhavebeen 

I hope you write that paper, the South Island is so different than the North, may as well be two different countries, shame really, common sense, innovation, passion and not a cartel in sight, ''building back stronger' to plagiarise OZ Labour's new catchphrase, just might happen if the SI band of brothers/sisters unite Reefton, bloody good luck to you.

thanks

[Reefton]

27 minutes ago, Doomed said:

I'm not sure that his report would go down well with the hierarchy currently running racing in the South. They think everything is going quite well and the more tracks they can close down the better for everyone.

I do hope he addresses issues such as the lack of 2yo racing in the South, several months without a 2yo race after the Welcome Stakes, and why there is no 3yo racing in the South for several weeks after the Cup meeting when virtually every meeting in the NI has a 3yo race of some type.

The lack of a logical two year old series was mentioned as one focus of the project yes as was trying to do something about handicapping to keep older geldings(say) in the game when they have met their mark but continue to race well enough that they are not dropping in rating

Re the hierarchy well in my view the heirarchy in terms of been there done that is one man BJ Anderton and he certainly would be carefully consulted. As for the rest of those who think they should be holding sway well I think we will have a look at the way things have been going while they have held sway and draw some conclusions as to the job they have done.

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

Fair comment Pam about the TAB distributions though to be fair I guess we have to have some anomalies there to fund the stakes and group racing programme.  I know I did an analysis twenty years or so back when Chittick and Co wanted to shut all the small clubs down and it showed that invariably the 'big' clubs were all significantly over-funded when their turnovers were compared to the industry funding they received BUT as I say there is justification when you consider the need to fund the glamour events.

I very much doubt that has changed in the last twenty years.

You are also of course quite correct about the age and enthusiasm level of the volunteers in the game.  I am young by comparison to many of them but my motivation just gets less and less and less as time goes by.  Right now for instance I am considering writing a paper analysing  South Island racing's position and(in consultation of course with people far more invested and knowledgeable than I).  The intent would be to come up with some sort a plan/suggestion list to try to rescue our area at least for the current malaise but seriously why would I spend months(and it would be months) writing researching consulting and circulating a report that will just be ignored? I would love to do it because I think I could really produce something constructive but when it is all for nought?  My trip to Cromwell last week just reinforced in me what great people the game involves and a bloody lot of them are hurting badly and desperately need to know that their voices are being heard, their ideas considered and their futures invested in.

And as I have said before it is strange how the likes of Murray Acklin and David Lloyd who would once have been strongly on the other side of the argument with me are now great sounding boards for ideas and critiquing.  

 

 

Odds on youre wasting your time doing that report, the industry won't change it refuses to , the self interest that burdens its progress will only begin to dessipate once the writing is on the wall.

I admire your enthusiasm but unless personnel are put in place that are vastly different than what we have had in the last 30 years there is no hope of there being significant enough change to make it all work, imo the change that is needed would upset the status quo/the current vision for the future/the M report  and therefore just isn't going to take place.

[nomates]

19 hours ago, Reefton said:

Or examine whether racing is really the best option for the land holding you have in big cities.  The question being are you better off to cash up the asset and use the huge financial windfall to set up in a less desirable(but still accessible) area(ie out in the outskirts somewhere) and have a very substantial nestegg to finance your racing activity.  This is especially applicable when those assets are not at all well attended like Wellington would have been on Saturday, Riccarton is on 90% of its days and Ellerslie the same.

If nobody is interested in attending(most of the time) it is madness to have assets of the NZ industry worth billions sitting there so they can be used once or twice a year(by a decent crowd I mean) 

Been saying it for years , do it now when the money for the land would set NZ racing up for the foreseeable future .

[nomates]

17 hours ago, Doomed said:

You seem to enjoy going off on a tangent to pick an argument with people Chief. Most of the people on here make very good points and I enjoy their input. People may approach the argument from different angles and may have slightly different points of view, but that is all healthy. There appear to be very few nutters on here, so they should be encouraged and not attacked.

 

No , never , wash your mouth out .

 

17 hours ago, Doomed said:

We are getting distracted from the original subject here, which is the poor performance over many years of Trentham and the prospects for the track going forward. We are surely at the point where the big decision must be made about whether to pour many millions into redeveloping Trentham, or rebuilding it elsewhere, or even redeveloping another existing track.

 

Add the other supposed NZ Metropolitan tracks to that list .

[nomates]

17 hours ago, Doomed said:

You seem to enjoy going off on a tangent to pick an argument with people Chief. Most of the people on here make very good points and I enjoy their input. People may approach the argument from different angles and may have slightly different points of view, but that is all healthy. There appear to be very few nutters on here, so they should be encouraged and not attacked.

 

No , never , wash your mouth out .

 

17 hours ago, Doomed said:

We are getting distracted from the original subject here, which is the poor performance over many years of Trentham and the prospects for the track going forward. We are surely at the point where the big decision must be made about whether to pour many millions into redeveloping Trentham, or rebuilding it elsewhere, or even redeveloping another existing track.

 

Add the other supposed NZ Metropolitan tracks to that list .

[nomates]

17 hours ago, Doomed said:

You seem to enjoy going off on a tangent to pick an argument with people Chief. Most of the people on here make very good points and I enjoy their input. People may approach the argument from different angles and may have slightly different points of view, but that is all healthy. There appear to be very few nutters on here, so they should be encouraged and not attacked.

 

No , never , wash your mouth out .

 

17 hours ago, Doomed said:

We are getting distracted from the original subject here, which is the poor performance over many years of Trentham and the prospects for the track going forward. We are surely at the point where the big decision must be made about whether to pour many millions into redeveloping Trentham, or rebuilding it elsewhere, or even redeveloping another existing track.

 

Add the other supposed NZ Metropolitan tracks to that list .

Edited December 6, 2021 by nomates

[nomates]

Sorry for the triple post , kept returning as if not posted , you can remove a couple if you wish CS .

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

I'm not sure that his report would go down well with the hierarchy currently running racing in the South. They think everything is going quite well and the more tracks they can close down the better for everyone.

I do hope he addresses issues such as the lack of 2yo racing in the South, several months without a 2yo race after the Welcome Stakes, and why there is no 3yo racing in the South for several weeks after the Cup meeting when virtually every meeting in the NI has a 3yo race of some type.

Forget about them fixing SI 2yo racing , the CD is not a lot better , they simply don't care . They would happily see the SI become the backwater that 2nd rate horses go to continue a struggling career , and the CD is is on the way to joining it .

[nomates]

3 hours ago, Reefton said:

Fair comment Pam about the TAB distributions though to be fair I guess we have to have some anomalies there to fund the stakes and group racing programme.  I know I did an analysis twenty years or so back when Chittick and Co wanted to shut all the small clubs down and it showed that invariably the 'big' clubs were all significantly over-funded when their turnovers were compared to the industry funding they received BUT as I say there is justification when you consider the need to fund the glamour events.

I very much doubt that has changed in the last twenty years.

You are also of course quite correct about the age and enthusiasm level of the volunteers in the game.  I am young by comparison to many of them but my motivation just gets less and less and less as time goes by.  Right now for instance I am considering writing a paper analysing  South Island racing's position and(in consultation of course with people far more invested and knowledgeable than I).  The intent would be to come up with some sort a plan/suggestion list to try to rescue our area at least for the current malaise but seriously why would I spend months(and it would be months) writing researching consulting and circulating a report that will just be ignored? I would love to do it because I think I could really produce something constructive but when it is all for nought?  My trip to Cromwell last week just reinforced in me what great people the game involves and a bloody lot of them are hurting badly and desperately need to know that their voices are being heard, their ideas considered and their futures invested in.

And as I have said before it is strange how the likes of Murray Acklin and David Lloyd who would once have been strongly on the other side of the argument with me are now great sounding boards for ideas and critiquing.  

 

 

Don't waste your time Reefton , they have a plan and it doesn't include improving SI or CD racing , they are only building an A/W at Riccarton and Awapuni as it was free money so cost them nothing and it made it look like they were doing something . The Messara Report was another smoke screen , they have basically used it as toilet paper .

[nomates]

27 minutes ago, Huey said:

Odds on youre wasting your time doing that report, the industry won't change it refuses to , the self interest that burdens its progress will only begin to dessipate once the writing is on the wall.

I admire your enthusiasm but unless personnel are put in place that are vastly different than what we have had in the last 30 years there is no hope of there being significant enough change to make it all work, imo the change that is needed would upset the status quo/the current vision for the future/the M report  and therefore just isn't going to take place.

Completely concur , their dye is cast , serious racing in NZ ( now there's an oxymoron ) will start above Taupo .

The chief will be happy because Ruakaka is north of Taupo but unfortunately north of Taupo will stop at Ellerslie .

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

Odds on youre wasting your time doing that report, the industry won't change it refuses to , the self interest that burdens its progress will only begin to dessipate once the writing is on the wall.

I admire your enthusiasm but unless personnel are put in place that are vastly different than what we have had in the last 30 years there is no hope of there being significant enough change to make it all work, imo the change that is needed would upset the status quo/the current vision for the future/the M report  and therefore just isn't going to take place.

That is EXACTLY why my brain is saying don't bother but my heart says have a go.  I have a business to run and racing doesn't pay the mortgage.

But if everyone sits back what is the inevitable outcome?

 

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

That is EXACTLY why my brain is saying don't bother but my heart says have a go.  I have a business to run and racing doesn't pay the mortgage.

But if everyone sits back what is the inevitable outcome?

 

The problem is that many good racing people haven't sat back , they have tried plenty , over many years . They fight or ignore or pay lip service to people who have had a great deal of on the ground experience . I myself have had battles over the years , they just think that they know better and everyone else is an uneducated pleb , unless you are one of the wealthy ones or part of the group .

Good luck to you if you go ahead with the project , who knows someone might listen .

[Reefton]

21 minutes ago, nomates said:

The problem is that many good racing people haven't sat back , they have tried plenty , over many years . They fight or ignore or pay lip service to people who have had a great deal of on the ground experience . I myself have had battles over the years , they just think that they know better and everyone else is an uneducated pleb , unless you are one of the wealthy ones or part of the group .

Good luck to you if you go ahead with the project , who knows someone might listen .

losing enthusiasm by the minute!

[Joe Bloggs]

way back in March we leased our last racehorse to the trainer and a synd he formed, we are getting invoices for noms at Foxton trials in July despite our numerous emails to them explaining they look at the lease.......today we get an account serving us with penalties and interest........they are so incompetent words are wasted, any thoughts we had of racing another one are smmmaasshhhedd........a Kiwi trainer loses because of this behaviour.