Karaka Millions Night 2022

[Chief Stipe]

Whatever your view or opinion on the various aspects of the Karaka Millions Night you can't deny that they have attracted a crowd and created a party.

Reminds me of Wellington Cup Day in 2001.

[the galah]

Looked an exciting day to be on course,but didn't the racing produce some cut throat tactics by some of the leading jockeys.V colfan,G grylls M cameron and A goindasamy twice all seemed to think the finish was at the 600m peg in the bigger races.Even O Bosson got in on the act in the last although to be fair to him he can't have expected the 2 roughies to engage in such self destructive deliberate tactics.It seemed the occasion got the better of them .

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, the galah said:

Even O Bosson got in on the act in the last

Perhaps.  But the armchair experts here were criticising Elliot a couple of weeks ago for not going forward.  The risk is always that someone inside you will go as well.

That said I don't think OTB is a true miler.  Plus I don't like those side winkers/rolls or whatever you call them.  They are neither one thing or another.  Richards is putting them on more of his horses which I think is the wrong thing to do.

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Perhaps.  But the armchair experts here were criticising Elliot a couple of weeks ago for not going forward.  The risk is always that someone inside you will go as well.

That said I don't think OTB is a true miler.  Plus I don't like those side winkers/rolls or whatever you call them.  They are neither one thing or another.  Richards is putting them on more of his horses which I think is the wrong thing to do.

No, you go forward or you go back, you don't sit there 3 deep like a galah wondering what the f to do. It's not rocket science, and off a hot pace a better option might have been to go back.

[the galah]

54 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

No, you go forward or you go back, you don't sit there 3 deep like a galah wondering what the f to do. It's not rocket science, and off a hot pace a better option might have been to go back.

So 2 of the 6 rides i mentioned sat 3 wide,so whats your excuse for the cut throat tactics of the horses inside them.Besides,just look at how they finished off their races to see what works.It also seems you are happier when jockeys press on if caught 3 wide even if their horse is out of its comfort zone and irrespective of the tempo .I would rather see one 3 wide and travelling,than being chased along just because the jockey has a pre determined mindset.

Edited January 22, 2022 by the galah

[Freda]

It's all about timing.

If the jock knows how fast his horse is going he can ( should) place it accordingly.  It seems that so very few actually have much idea.

[curious]

8 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

No, you go forward or you go back, you don't sit there 3 deep like a galah wondering what the f to do. It's not rocket science, and off a hot pace a better option might have been to go back.

Just another armchair expert JB and that's what many of us were taught to think or do. Not sure I entirely agree though. There is a momentum and/or energy cost in going forward or back contra to the distance cost of traveling 3 wide. It also may mean that a further momentum/energy cost is incurred to get a run in the straight e.g., having to change ground. Some horses (bigger long striding types especially) may travel more comfortably a bit further out even if 3 wide without cover. I agree with Freda that the much more important thing is to be able to judge pace and position horses, go forward or steady on that basis. If you are wide in the open then you have a much better chance of doing that than if you are stuck snuggled up on the fence where the race can be taken away from you and there is nought you can do about it.

[curious]

Have a look at the first at Gore yesterday JB. Perfect example. CWJ may be getting close to his use by date and is more known for dropping horses out, getting them relaxed and travelling and getting them home late but you don't ride 2500 winners without the ability to judge pace and the confidence to back that judgement. 3w without cover early, then 2w without cover. No pace on, took action. Bolted in.

[Freda]

9 minutes ago, curious said:

Have a look at the first at Gore yesterday JB. Perfect example. CWJ may be getting close to his use by date and is more known for dropping horses out, getting them relaxed and travelling and getting them home late but you don't ride 2500 winners without the ability to judge pace and the confidence to back that judgement. 3w without cover early, then 2w without cover. No pace on, took action. Bolted in.

Yes.  CWJ has long been known as a superb judge of pace, has had periods where he has been off the boil, but - as they say - class is permanent.

I think Tina is also showing that she has a good feel for pace, too, her results at present are outstanding, and she can only get better with more exposure.

I think I've mentioned this before - I  questioned Chris O'Brien, many years ago, about his penchant for parking wide without cover when everyone seemed to want to be in behind the leader on the fence.  He just grinned and said, the shortest way home is the one without a bump.  He was a fine rider, probably didn't get the accolades at the time, of CWJ and G Davidson, locally - but he rode a helluva lot of winners at a time when there were really good jockeys around.  Still plodding along in NSW I see.

I recall Dave Kerr saying, that when he was young, a trainer could throw the colours in the jockeys' room and it didn't matter who picked them up.

OPB's performance yesterday doesn't flatter him at all.   As for OTB ?  he has had surgery for a respiratory condition, clearly he's a very good horse indeed, but to place him in a situation where he may be vulnerable doesn't show much nous.

And to add to my little rant ;  if I ask a local [ Riccarton] rider to work a horse at a specific rate, I get a blank look, with one or two exceptions.   Appalling, IMO.

I doubt if it would be confined to Riccarton either, looking at the overall standard of riding.

[Chief Stipe]

The criticism of Opie doesn't say much for the rest of NZ Jockey's given how far back that pack is.

[Freda]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The criticism of Opie doesn't say much for the rest of NZ Jockey's given how far back that pack is.

Quite so.      But, 'the rest' don't get t play with million dollar stock either.   Some of them would make you and me look ok.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Freda said:

Quite so.      But, 'the rest' don't get t play with million dollar stock either.   Some of them would make you and me look ok.

Well Opies ride in the 2yr old race was superb.

Anyone who follows racing at Ellerslie knows once you get caught in the cheap seats there isn't much that can be done.

With regard to OTB if you recall he's been caught wide before and has been driven up to get a possie.  Yesterday the luck didn't go his way.  It happens and happens quite frequently at Ellerslie such is the shape and slope of the track.

[Freda]

If one of my apprentices had engaged in a speed duel 3 wide in front their ears would have been burning for a week. 

That's what you get from 4 claimers,  not experienced and ( normally) classy jockeys. 

[Joe Bloggs]

Well I think we could argue until the cows come home, however you have to ride each horse to suit each horse and to take on board the wishes of the trainer, unless you're Glen Boss or Shane Dye who did what they wanted anyway.

If you go forward you do so because you make that decision once you jump, if you jump well and have a known speed horse under you and you are leaving a wide gate you'll know pretty quick if you're going to get stuck 3 wide outside the leaders so you do the obvious and exert enough pressure on the other two [unless they are running ridiculous sectionals] and 99% of the time you'll get to at least outside the leader. As a trainer I would be happy with a jockeys explanation as to that's why he had to use a bit more gas than normal to get where he was........if your riding a tractable horse with the ability to go back without being mouth dragged back there and the course enables you to have that thought process you'll know just as quick what your MO is going to be.

I'm pretty sure we are only as good as the men and women that taught us, plus the addition of your own ability and skills, so, I'm very appreciative I was tutored/taught/mentored by two of NZ's best, one undoubtedly and as mentioned one A A Armanasco so was privy to some very intuitive riding instructions to some of Oz and NZ 's leading jockeys...... those men that taught me believed that travelling 3 wide around a bend would cost you in the wash up, there are exceptions as there is to any event, and of course a horse with super ability might be able to sit 3 wide the journey against horses with far lesser ability and beat them......on occasions......but I'll stick with my beliefs thank you, and I was happy to explain why, and I respect if others disagree, that's what makes the world go around.

[nod]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

If one of my apprentices had engaged in a speed duel 3 wide in front their ears would have been burning for a week. 

That's what you get from 4 claimers,  not experienced and ( normally) classy jockeys. 

I put a [later champion] rider on and told if she was 3 wide she would be fired. Came ii with a huge smile and said she obeyed instructions   -She had been 4 wide throughout [and won]

[curious]

28 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

If you go forward you do so because you make that decision once you jump,

Don't agree with that. The decision to go forward may well come mid-race as it did with OP yesterday. Then it's based on your judgement of pace and how you think the horse is traveling.

[curious]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

I think I've mentioned this before - I  questioned Chris O'Brien, many years ago, about his penchant for parking wide without cover when everyone seemed to want to be in behind the leader on the fence.  He just grinned and said, the shortest way home is the one without a bump.  He was a fine rider, probably didn't get the accolades at the time, of CWJ and G Davidson, locally - but he rode a helluva lot of winners at a time when there were really good jockeys around.  Still plodding along in NSW I see.

Yes. A top rate rider with a career plagued by a foot injury.

But that is exactly my point. Avoiding bumps, ground changes, momentum shifts from speeding up or slowing down, all conserve energy, often moreso than what is used by covering a little extra ground.

[Rangatira]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

I think I've mentioned this before - I  questioned Chris O'Brien, many years ago, about his penchant for parking wide without cover when everyone seemed to want to be in behind the leader on the fence.  He just grinned and said, the shortest way home is the one without a bump.  He was a fine rider, probably didn't get the accolades at the time, of CWJ and G Davidson, locally - but he rode a helluva lot of winners at a time when there were really good jockeys around.  Still plodding along in NSW I see.

I was stoked for him when Sincero came along.

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Don't agree with that. The decision to go forward may well come mid-race as it did with OP yesterday. Then it's based on your judgement of pace and how you think the horse is traveling.

Agree, fair point, in NZ in many races they jump, kick up and for some unbeknown reason, other than that of the pilot concerned the brakes go on, and hard, resulting in a pile up behind, that doesn't happen here, well to the extent it does in NZ, and one day there will be a tragedy owing to fucking braindead jockeys pulling up in front. If I trained one that was subsequently stripped I'd be escorted out of the course because by hell I'd make my presence felt, all 115 kg of me!

If the tempo is pedestrian then of course you make that decision, if you've already gone back and they are now doing evens up front due to the slackening, yeah, take off, take them by surprise, put some energy into the race, at least you'll get beaten on your merits, or maybe not......you may well win, then it's a masterstroke, but at least the connections wont die wondering, like they would if you sat 3 wide posturing and then get leg weary and tire.....IMO.

[Joe Bloggs]

May I just add, on the AWT things are a tad different, because of the imminent kick back it can be prudent to cover a little bit of extra ground in an attempt to avoid eye damage, respiratory problems and shyness induced by said incidents. History repeats, and any doubting Thomas's just need to pick up the phone and call a trainer, any trainer from Toowoomba and ask them. The AWT will break up, Geelong did, and only a certain amount of horses chase on Pakenham and Ballarat.....and they are relatively new tracks, if you look at the Sunshine Coast it's a different synthetic and yet last meeting they could only attract 3 in one race and 4 in another..........work it out for yourself........in the wash up travelling like Captain Cook or Gulliver will only work on an AWT ......or the odd fluke.....such is racing.

[billy connolly]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

If one of my apprentices had engaged in a speed duel 3 wide in front their ears would have been burning for a week. 

That's what you get from 4 claimers,  not experienced and ( normally) classy jockeys. 

It's not Bosson's fault that the two imbeciles on his inside clicked up and took him on. Bosson made the decision to go forward after being parked wide which in hindsight was the wrong one.

 

2 hours ago, curious said:

But that is exactly my point. Avoiding bumps, ground changes, momentum shifts from speeding up or slowing down, all conserve energy, often moreso than what is used by covering a little extra ground.

On a firm track the easiest and most proven way to get a horse beat is to take the wide lane, even very good horses are beaten this way. That's why the wide lane gets a start in an Olympic 400m final.

I've seen thousands of horses finish full of running by saving ground but I've never seen a horse finish full of running posted wide!

Edited January 22, 2022 by billy connolly

[Joe Bloggs]

6 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

It's not Bosson's fault that the two imbeciles on his inside clicked up and took him on. Bosson made the decision to go forward after being parked wide which in hindsight was the wrong one.

 

On a firm track the easiest and most proven way to get a horse beat is to take the wide lane, even very good horses are beaten this way. That's why the wide lane gets a start in an Olympic 400m final.

I've seen thousands of horses finish full of running by saving ground but I've never seen a horse finish full of running posted wide!

Och Laddie, give yourself an uppercut......not!..... well said.

[curious]

3 hours ago, billy connolly said:

It's not Bosson's fault that the two imbeciles on his inside clicked up and took him on. Bosson made the decision to go forward after being parked wide which in hindsight was the wrong one.

Don't think going forward was the wrong decision. Trying to take on the other two when they clicked up was.

3 hours ago, billy connolly said:

On a firm track the easiest and most proven way to get a horse beat is to take the wide lane, even very good horses are beaten this way. That's why the wide lane gets a start in an Olympic 400m final.

The wide lane doesn't get a head start. Each lane is measured so they all run exactly 400m. Horses don't race in lanes.

 

3 hours ago, billy connolly said:

I've seen thousands of horses finish full of running by saving ground but I've never seen a horse finish full of running posted wide!

None of those full of running after saving ground win do they? Those that are in the open do because they are able to fully exert themselves.