Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 43 minutes ago, the galah said: Can you provide a link to the latest annual accounts? Check out the filings on Incorporated Societies website. Aren't they on the ATC website? 44 minutes ago, the galah said: Doesn't the previous couple of years show the racing side of things was running at a loss? No. If I recall correctly they also paid out more in stakes than the funding they received from HRNZ. 45 minutes ago, the galah said: But if we are to believe what you say,then they have somehow turned that all around in the previous financial year,despite declining horse numbers and covid? That would be a positive if it was true,but can you provide some proof of that? Again go to the Incorporated Societies website for the full set of accounts. Note I said their racing activity shows a profit. I posted this previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 ATC is going through some internecine warfare amongst members. Such is the life of clubs. The RNZYS is having the same problem with the America's Cup. ATC may have turned it around. If they don't at least you have to give them credit for giving it a go. BTW I don't buy into bullshit that their assets are industry assets and every harness stakeholder has a claim to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Brodie said: I go into betting places and there is next to no one else wagering on harness. what places i am wondering if you are that guy that keeps peering over my shoulder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 56 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: But that isn't something that Harness controls it is a TAB NZ issue and Government rules. What's wrong with confirming your identity when depositing or withdrawing large sums of money? What sort of incentives? Free hot dogs and ice creams? Where's the marketing budget come from? Less Stakes? Is $1k a lot of money nowadays Chief? The $1k is not to do with money laundering at all! HRNZ needs to stand up and voice that stupid rules are detrimental to the success of harness racing! Why on earth should a punter known, needing not to be a money launderer, have to identify themselves everytime they collect $1k!! Incentives can be as little as packages that entice new people oncourse which includes a meal, a drink, a betting voucher and how to wager! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: But that isn't something that Harness controls it is a TAB NZ issue and Government rules. What's wrong with confirming your identity when depositing or withdrawing large sums of money? What sort of incentives? Free hot dogs and ice creams? Where's the marketing budget come from? Less Stakes? As for having to identify yourself when withdrawing large sums of money, the betting agents never have enough cash!!!!!!!! Can you advise me why you have to identify yourself when you amalgamate 2 betting vouchers that combined goes over $1k???? You are not actually withdrawing/collecting or being paid out over $1k from the TAB so why the need to identify yourself?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Brodie said: Is $1k a lot of money nowadays Chief? No. But try and withdraw or deposit that amount with a bank on a regular basis and not be asked questions. 5 minutes ago, Brodie said: The $1k is not to do with money laundering at all! Then what is it to do with? The DIA have pushed it as well. 7 minutes ago, Brodie said: HRNZ needs to stand up and voice that stupid rules are detrimental to the success of harness racing! Perhaps they have but at the end of the day it is an issue between TAB NZ and Government legislated compliance issues. 8 minutes ago, Brodie said: Incentives can be as little as packages that entice new people oncourse which includes a meal, a drink, a betting voucher and how to wager! So a marketing budget. Now whose job is it and where does the money come from? TAB NZ (less funding of HRNZ), HRNZ (less stakes) or the Clubs (less stakes)? Whose job is it? TAB NZ has abdicated responsibility to the codes. So is it HRNZ or the Clubs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Brodie said: Can you advise me why you have to identify yourself when you amalgamate 2 betting vouchers that combined goes over $1k???? Why would I know? But isn't the answer obvious? You are aggregating and going over the limit. 5 minutes ago, Brodie said: You are not actually withdrawing/collecting or being paid out over $1k from the TAB so why the need to identify yourself?????? As I said you are aggregating two vouchers that takes you over the limit. They don't know who the vouchers belong to. You could be doing what they used to do in the old days when laundering money through the TAB. You are laundering money for someone else for a fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Why would I know? But isn't the answer obvious? You are aggregating and going over the limit. As I said you are aggregating two vouchers that takes you over the limit. They don't know who the vouchers belong to. You could be doing what they used to do in the old days when laundering money through the TAB. You are laundering money for someone else for a fee. Plain crazy if they think that someone needs to identify themselves to collect $1k after wagering $2!!!!! Havent got a problem with having to show ID for a decent collect but everytime when the betting agents staff are aware you arent a money launderer? The Government meddling in everyones business and life nowadays is just blatant BS!!! We need to stand up and not obey and not play their stupid games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Brodie said: Plain crazy if they think that someone needs to identify themselves to collect $1k after wagering $2!!!!! It's not about the $2 it's about the $1,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, Brodie said: Plain crazy if they think that someone needs to identify themselves to collect $1k after wagering $2!!!!! Havent got a problem with having to show ID for a decent collect but everytime when the betting agents staff are aware you arent a money launderer? The Government meddling in everyones business and life nowadays is just blatant BS!!! We need to stand up and not obey and not play their stupid games! Cuts both ways though. If the IRD asks where the $5k come from that you deposited in your account you can say you won it and here's the proof. The joys of selling sleepers for cash! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: It's not about the $2 it's about the $1,000. Chief, a money launderer is not someone that has put $2 on!!! It is just about more control and it has to stop!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 21 minutes ago, Brodie said: Chief, a money launderer is not someone that has put $2 on!!! It is just about more control and it has to stop!!!!!!! Possibly is. How do you know that the person cashing in the voucher didn't pay face value plus 10% for it? How is it control? No bank hands over $1,000 without identification. The issue you have is that it eliminates another option of getting around your betting restrictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Check out the filings on Incorporated Societies website. Aren't they on the ATC website? No. If I recall correctly they also paid out more in stakes than the funding they received from HRNZ. Again go to the Incorporated Societies website for the full set of accounts. Note I said their racing activity shows a profit. I posted this previously. The reason i asked was because i have read the previous annual reports for the years ending 31 july 2020 and 2019.So i think you have got it wrong this time chief. I would have thought the applicable portion of the annual report was under "racing revenue and expenditure". For 2019 they had a loss of $252,273 and in 2020 a loss of $243,715. It appears the reduced racing due to covid in 2020 meant their losses weren't quite as big as the previous year. The bulk of their funding for stakes comes from industry funding. They also receive industry subsidies(e.g. for running the bigger races).They receive more industry funding and subsidies than they pay out in stakes. Edited February 13, 2022 by the galah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Possibly is. How do you know that the person cashing in the voucher didn't pay face value plus 10% for it? How is it control? No bank hands over $1,000 without identification. The issue you have is that it eliminates another option of getting around your betting restrictions. Lol no it doesnt eliminate any option, it is just to try and reduce the size of my wallet filling!! The betting vouchers has reduced the amount of cash bets which they are happy to take. However very very difficult to get paid out in cash, and it is not money laundering! Of course it is control if you can not bet or collect $1k without identifying yourself. What right have they got to ask you for ID cos you want a measly $1k? They are Control Freaks meddling in everyones life and it needs to STOP!! Edited February 13, 2022 by Brodie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 hour ago, the galah said: The reason i asked was because i have read the previous annual reports for the years ending 31 july 2020 and 2019.So i think you have got it wrong this time chief. I would have thought the applicable portion of the annual report was under "racing revenue and expenditure". For 2019 they had a loss of $252,273 and in 2020 a loss of $243,715. It appears the reduced racing due to covid in 2020 meant their losses weren't quite as big as the previous year. The bulk of their funding for stakes comes from industry funding. They also receive industry subsidies(e.g. for running the bigger races).They receive more industry funding and subsidies than they pay out in stakes. As I said in an earlier post which you ignored. For the year ended 31 July 2021 a profit of $642k was returned from Racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Brodie said: Chief, a money launderer is not someone that has put $2 on!!! Might be just starting out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: As I said in an earlier post which you ignored. For the year ended 31 July 2021 a profit of $642k was returned from Racing. Ok i have found the 2021 annual accounts. I'm not a rocket scientist,but i can do maths and all is not what it seems to me if you just look at the $642k profit you refer to.Just take a closer look at the figures. You'll have to excuse how some parts of this post line up. It doesn't come up as i have typed it for some reason. Anyway For the 2021 year 2020 year Industry funding 6,940,524 5,538,787 subsidies 1,055252 927,150 total 7,995,776 6,465,937 Stakes paid 7,543,960 6,375,004 subtract industry funding from stakes paid. In 2021 $451,816 90,933 So the ATC received an increase of $360,883 ,in excess of stakes paid,from the industry than it did the previous year. Then you look at totalisator expenses down $251,000 which must mean less staff and poorer service,workout and trials take up $158,390,i guess they have socked the owners to run at those things. Those type of things along with acceptance fees going up 60% while other things has gone up on average about 18%. So the industry is subsidising them more,owners are having their costs increased, all while services provided are being cut. Thats the real picture around the racing side of the business. Haven't HRNZ shut down clubs who actually did have good books? Edited February 14, 2022 by the galah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, the galah said: . For the 2021 year 2020 year Industry funding 6,940,524 5,538,787 subsidies 1,055252 927,150 total 7,995,776 6,465,937 Stakes paid 7,543,960 6,375,004 subtract industry funding from stakes paid. In 2021 $451,816 90,933 So the ATC received an increase of $360,883 ,in excess of stakes paid,from the industry than it did the previous year. Then you look at totalisator expenses down $251,000 which must mean less staff and poorer service,workout and trials take up $158,390,i guess they have socked the owners to run at those things. Those type of things along with acceptance fees going up 60% while other things has gone up on average about 18%. So the industry is subsidising them more,owners are having their costs increased, all while services provided are being cut. Thats the real picture around the racing side of the business. Haven't HRNZ shut down clubs who actually did have good books? Thats how it was supposed to look. Not sure why it came out not lined up first time. Edited February 14, 2022 by the galah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 So what are these "Subsidies" @the galah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 28 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: So what are these "Subsidies" @the galah? Extra industry funding for the bigger races and sale series races like the other night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 23 minutes ago, the galah said: Extra industry funding for the bigger races and sale series races like the other night. Are you sure about that? Even so what is the problem with that? Is the question not that ATC got those subsidies but that those races did? I don't think that the Premier Races in Harness are as far out of whack as the Thoroughbreds. At least the majority of the Harness Group races do actually have Group class horses racing in them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Are you sure about that? Well thats what the 2020 annual accounts said they were for. Why would it change? 26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Is the question not that ATC got those subsidies but that those races did? Well the ATC records them as subsidies received and those races as stakes paid out. The point is a large part of why the ATC was able to say they had a profit recorded last year on the racing side of things was because the industry gave them extra funds.They record that extra funding on the income side of things. In 2020 they paid $90,993 less in stakes than they received funding,yet in 2021 they paid $451,816 less in stakes than they received in funding.Using that logic,why not give them an extra million dollars in industry funding,,then their racing side of things would look even better.Aren't they just cooking the books? The money just doesn't materialise out of nowhere. Giving it to auckland means other areas don't get it. Edited February 14, 2022 by the galah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 31 minutes ago, the galah said: Well the ATC records them as subsidies received and those races as stakes paid out. The point is a large part of why the ATC was able to say they had a profit recorded last year on the racing side of things was because the industry gave them extra funds.They record that extra funding on the income side of things. Of the funding received from HRNZ 94% was paid out in Stakes and Trophies. What did the other clubs do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Of the funding received from HRNZ 94% was paid out in Stakes and Trophies. What did the other clubs do? What other clubs didn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Of the funding received from HRNZ 94% was paid out in Stakes and Trophies. What did the other clubs do? Actually turns out you do have a point there chief. I had a look at a couple of other clubs. for example for the 2021 year Methven received $917,000 industry funding and paid out $729,939 in stakes. Auckland do appear to have a higher % payout for industry funds received to stakes paid than methven. Maybe that might change.Interesting that they have borrowed an extra $1,000,000 to develop some land into a new subdivision. They are selling 22 lots and you would think they can't go wrong selling bare land as sections at the prices they get now days. I see they even disclosed Ricky May liked one that much that hes bought one, in an arms length transaction. Then i had a look at timaru. They had only the 2020 as the latest. They received $512,580 and paid out $333,740. This year they did increase their stakes quite a bit so maybe the % paid has improved. addington was hard to work out as the exact break down wasn't as clear. But by the looks of it Auckland much better than them as well. Maybe HRNZ or the ATC should publish that % for every club so there is some transparency and people have a better understanding of where each $ goes and how much is returned in stakes.. Edited February 14, 2022 by the galah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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