Are the A/W's already becoming a white elephant ???

[Doomed]

6 hours ago, curious said:

It is also likely they would have got more noms. Not too often you get a chance to run an R65 for 15k with the best available (based on ratings) 13 horses excluded from entry. Of course, that would now make it somewhat unfair if someone could enter late, a horse that would have otherwise made the 30k race.

Original entries do get preference, but as you say if they had left entries open it might have attracted a few extra horses who would like to race in a third tier race for $15,000. Wait until something similar happens in the north, they always leave noms open to get the extra race.

The big point though is all these horses desperate for a start when they could get an AWT start most weeks. I'm quite surprised NZTR didn't just say f..k off you could have raced on the AWT last week and there's heaps more coming up. NZTR will hate it if they have to run three races, no wonder they didn't leave noms open.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

 

The big point though is all these horses desperate for a start when they could get an AWT start most weeks. I'm quite surprised NZTR didn't just say f..k off you could have raced on the AWT last week and there's heaps more coming up. NZTR will hate it if they have to run three races, no wonder they didn't leave noms open.

Yes they will, as it's a glaring example of how incompetent their programming is.

The you could still race on the AWT will soon be the mantra .

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Huey said:

Yes they will, as it's a glaring example of how incompetent their programming is.

The you could still race on the AWT will soon be the mantra .

Was told by a CEO once that if the company started believing its own propaganda then we were well and truly stuffed.  

[curious]

Looks like they have added the 2 15k races

[nomates]

13 minutes ago, curious said:

Looks like they have added the 2 15k races

Highly unusual , they must be listening to Doomed , that man carries some weight .

[nomates]

That's 30k they are throwing in the pot , will spending that extra money lose the industry money or will the extra betting bring a profit for the industry ? . 

[Doomed]

16 minutes ago, nomates said:

That's 30k they are throwing in the pot , will spending that extra money lose the industry money or will the extra betting bring a profit for the industry ? . 

I have often asked that question myself. No one has ever been able to explain what level of turnover is needed to make these races self funding and what level of turnover they actually do.

[nomates]

Obviously adding those 2 races has fucked with the bureau's heads , fields still not out 1 1/2 hours after withdrawals . All too much for them to cope with .

[Doomed]

27 minutes ago, nomates said:

Obviously adding those 2 races has fucked with the bureau's heads , fields still not out 1 1/2 hours after withdrawals . All too much for them to cope with .

To give them credit I do like the way they have split the fields. Makes more sense than heaps of ballots in each race. Gives jockeys and trainers more certainty.

I suspect they do have one or two competent people at the actual practical level, it is just that they are poorly led and have to toe an incoherent party line.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Doomed

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

I have often asked that question myself. No one has ever been able to explain what level of turnover is needed to make these races self funding and what level of turnover they actually do.

I've asked repeatedly "Where is the business case?"  What revenue is required to maintain them?

[Doomed]

Interesting to compare Ashburton to HB. 11 races at Ashburton with quality fields in the two open races: a rating 89 top weight in the 11 horse stayers race and a rating 101 top weight in the 13 horse open sprint. HB in comparison, the open sprint scrapped due to lack of interest and just 5 nominated for the open stayers, the best of them a rating 78. Only 5 in the 3yo as well. They will be lucky to manage 7 races.

You do wonder whether more of these SI meetings deserve Saturday status. It would help turnovers on the SI meetings and provide a much better product for the betting public. 

Perhaps we are also seeing the consequences of all the racemeetings that have been stripped out of the South in recent years. It certainly looks as if the AWT meetings should have been additional meetings rather than replacing races at Timaru and Oamaru.

[Freda]

Yes, agree.   

A meeting such as Ashburton tomorrow definitely deserves Saturday status, IMO.

Although, with dropping horse numbers year on year, it seems hard to justify 'extra' meetings,  the blanket wiping out of tracks should be tempered with more thought and balance.

Moderation in all things, surely?

As pointed out already, the majority of 'winter' horses are, by reason of conformation, action, and aptitude, best suited by slower or softer going.

And, the throwaway remark from a leading trainer that ' those slow bastards, waste of time, we don't need them '   fails to recognise that much of our bloodstock comes from Europe, where even - perish the thought - Grp One races can be run on slow or heavy going.

The fact that staying sorts from the Uk are now the regular go-to for leading Australian trainers obviously hasn't been noticed there.

 

[Huey]

44 minutes ago, Freda said:

 

Although, with dropping horse numbers year on year, it seems hard to justify 'extra' meetings,  the blanket wiping out of tracks should be tempered with more thought and balance.

 

As pointed out already, the majority of 'winter' horses are, by reason of conformation, action, and aptitude, best suited by slower or softer going.

And, the throwaway remark from a leading trainer that ' those slow bastards, waste of time, we don't need them '   fails to recognise that much of our bloodstock comes from Europe, where even - perish the thought - Grp One races can be run on slow or heavy going.

The fact that staying sorts from the Uk are now the regular go-to for leading Australian trainers obviously hasn't been noticed there.

 

The real issue is numbers have dropped by either design or incompetence, alot of that via the alienation of tracks. Only going to be worse with the AWT being the main focus of everything over the next few years, before its too late.

Total ignorance from that trainer, there are races for all horses they just have to graded/grouped correctly(not really happening here at the moment), thats why we have Highweights etc. I'm of the opinion Punters will punt on them commeasurate to the competitive nature of the races.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

And, the throwaway remark from a leading trainer that ' those slow bastards, waste of time, we don't need them '

Then why aren't they lobbying hard for safe and fast turf tracks?  Afterall that is what most of the racing is done on throughout the world.

[Doomed]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

 

And, the throwaway remark from a leading trainer that ' those slow bastards, waste of time, we don't need them '   fails to recognise that much of our bloodstock comes from Europe, where even - perish the thought - Grp One races can be run on slow or heavy going.

The fact that staying sorts from the Uk are now the regular go-to for leading Australian trainers obviously hasn't been noticed there.

 

With the state of NSW racing these days you would think there would be more demand for horses that can plough through the mud than horses that are really good on AWTs.

[curious]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then why aren't they lobbying hard for safe and fast turf tracks?  Afterall that is what most of the racing is done on throughout the world.

There's a lot of racing in North America that [s not on turf and not necessarily on fast tracks. Could be half the world's racing. I've seen them there salting snow and ice and training and racing on the resulting slush. Tracks are still generally pretty safe. Safer when they are slower, like here.

Edited July 6, 2022 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, curious said:

There's a lot of racing in North America that [s not on turf and not necessarily on fast tracks. Could be half the world's racing. I've seen them there salting snow and ice and training and racing on the resulting slush. Tracks are still generally pretty safe. Safer when they are slower, like here.

My question was in response to @Freda's quote of a high profile trainer.

Quite frankly I don't watch North Armerican racing.  Prefer Australia, Hong Kong and UK/Europe.  Last time I looked they largely ran on safe consistent turf tracks.

[curious]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

My question was in response to @Freda's quote of a high profile trainer.

Quite frankly I don't watch North Armerican racing.  Prefer Australia, Hong Kong and UK/Europe.  Last time I looked they largely ran on safe consistent turf tracks.

I wasn't questioning what racing jurisdictions you or anyone else choose to watch. I was simply pointing out that a lot of the world's racing is not conducted on turf as you suggested. That includes some 30000+ races a year in North America which are run on dirt or synthetic tracks.

[Huey]

Hadn't seen this before.

 

JULY 2012

 

Trainer Bart Cummings "has applauded the stance of Racing NSW chief executive Peter V'landys in dismissing the introduction of synthetic racetracks, which are in place in Victoria & Queensland" reported The Sydney Morning Herald. Cummings declared: "I agree entirely; follow American racing & you'll end up like Wall Street - broke. US tracks were bought by accountants, they introduced dirt, could only run on grass 30 times a year but they wanted to race 90 times a year. They couldn't give a toss about the horse. In America they race on bute, anabolics, all types of drugs, synthetic tracks aren't worth two bob, they break horses down." Cummings "is no fan of synthetic training tracks either & believes the Strathayr grass surface (which is in place at Moonee Valley) has stood the test of time". He noted: "Coarse river sand is the best training surface. When it rains it expands; other sand doesn't, it turns into slop, washes away & won't expand."

 

 

[Doomed]

It might be interesting if Te Rapa gets all the rain predicted for tomorrow. I know it does drain well, but I wonder if they are considering Cambridge as an option. One thing we do know is that the meeting won't be abandoned altogether, which I suppose is a bonus. Afterall, the big justification for the AWTs was to stop meetings like Te Rapa being abandoned. They transfer them all the time in Aussie, Ipswich just yesterday.

Its a pity Awapuni isn't ready. We might have had the unique situation of two meetings transferred on the same day.

[nomates]

34 minutes ago, Doomed said:

It might be interesting if Te Rapa gets all the rain predicted for tomorrow. I know it does drain well, but I wonder if they are considering Cambridge as an option. One thing we do know is that the meeting won't be abandoned altogether, which I suppose is a bonus. Afterall, the big justification for the AWTs was to stop meetings like Te Rapa being abandoned. They transfer them all the time in Aussie, Ipswich just yesterday.

Its a pity Awapuni isn't ready. We might have had the unique situation of two meetings transferred on the same day.

The Ipswich fields were decimated once xfered , Te Rapa fields would be the same , the horses running at TR need wet tracks to be competitive , the thing that the brains trust never got when talking about building A/W's . It's apples and oranges .

[Freda]

On 7/07/2022 at 6:19 PM, Huey said:

Hadn't seen this before.

 

JULY 2012

 

Trainer Bart Cummings "has applauded the stance of Racing NSW chief executive Peter V'landys in dismissing the introduction of synthetic racetracks, which are in place in Victoria & Queensland" reported The Sydney Morning Herald. Cummings declared: "I agree entirely; follow American racing & you'll end up like Wall Street - broke. US tracks were bought by accountants, they introduced dirt, could only run on grass 30 times a year but they wanted to race 90 times a year. They couldn't give a toss about the horse. In America they race on bute, anabolics, all types of drugs, synthetic tracks aren't worth two bob, they break horses down." Cummings "is no fan of synthetic training tracks either & believes the Strathayr grass surface (which is in place at Moonee Valley) has stood the test of time". He noted: "Coarse river sand is the best training surface. When it rains it expands; other sand doesn't, it turns into slop, washes away & won't expand."

 

 

Quote from ten years ago from a wise man.    No doubt installation/preparation has improved since but still pretty much on the button I think.

[curious]

21 hours ago, Freda said:

Quote from ten years ago from a wise man.    No doubt installation/preparation has improved since but still pretty much on the button I think.

Yes. Wise comment. And noted that installation and materials may have improved.

A couple of years later the mandated polytracks in California were taken out at Del Mar and Santa Anita. Keeneland another significant North American track that removed the poly a couple of years later. That said, I don't agree with Bart lumping dirt tracks in with synthetics. They are the staple of North American racing and what the removed polytracks reverted to. The likes of Golden Gate, Woodbine and Turfway switched to Tapeta which didn't seem to even be considered here. Arlington Park in the major city of Chicago switched to polytrack in 2007 and has since had to close completely.

It has been noted here that the Toowoomba experience should have been considered.

Fields have dropped 30 percent, and wagering at Clifford has fallen 25 percent in the last two years due to the surface.

“Synthetic tracks don't work overseas and in Toowoomba, where the temperature can go from the low digits to 40C, it couldn't work because it would be gluey in the summer and hard as bitumen in the winter,” said trainer Darryl Gollan.

Pakenham also has had issues.

Generally, the AWTs here seem to be performing well. Hard to get a handle on whether an increase in soft tissue/shear injuries has occurred as was experienced in California. Not reported here but racehorse vets in the vicinity of the two now operating may be getting some idea. There also seems to be little indication of the maintenance cost planning. It seems likely from reports that it will only stand up for 2 or 3 years without complete replacement and probably also require irrigation.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, curious said:

 

Generally, the AWTs here seem to be performing well. Hard to get a handle on whether an increase in soft tissue/shear injuries has occurred as was experienced in California. Not reported here but racehorse vets in the vicinity of the two now operating may be getting some idea. There also seems to be little indication of the maintenance cost planning. It seems likely from reports that it will only stand up for 2 or 3 years without complete replacement and probably also require irrigation.

Yes, so far, performing well.     

We're only a year down the track, however, with plenty of wear-and-tear to come yet.

No information really [ as you say ] as to the likely cost and time-frame wrt maintenance, and eventual complete replacement, and no published information about injury statistics.

Anecdotally - not so good.  A relocated trainer from the northern region has a family member who is a practising veterinarian, and the information forthcoming is concerning.

I have an northern-based owner, who is also diametrically opposed to the very idea of his horse working/racing on AWT's.   He has lost one and had another with moderate issues, for which he places the blame squarely on the surface.  Whether he is right, of course, I have no way of knowing, but I will respect his wishes regardless.

Working and racing should not be mandated as to the surface desired, IMO.    Some choice should be available for trainers/horses alike, given the exigencies of location, etc.  To be forced to race and/or work on an unsuitable surface is not really the way it should be.

 

 

[Huey]

Any truth to the rumour Awapuni AWT is so tight they can only have 8 starters per race? Couldn't be true?