Derby and 2000Gns under threat

[curious]

31 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So the local trainers have just accepted the crap track for the last 30 years?  Why?

WTF has that got to do with the Guineas being run at Riccarton?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, curious said:

WTF has that got to do with the Guineas being run at Riccarton?

One less reason to run them there if the track is fucked.  If the leading trainer doesn't give a stuff about the condition of their local track who else is going to?  Chickens and roosts.

[Chief Stipe]

Remind you of anyone?

[Joe Bloggs]

I know it's past your bedtime over there, but........I'm referring to the demise of racing in the south, mainly HQ, Riccarton, the state of the track, the training tracks other than the new toy, and all things shit.....the grandstand, the insurance fuck up, it's becoming like Trentham, soon the crowd will be,   trainers, owners, jocks, strappers, vet, barrier staff and the three drunks and the P addict that have been sleeping rough in the urinals........and the two old ladies at the Tote windows.........and maybe the junk food purveyor in the van of old.......shall I go on. Lets not count the committee room, that's cheating, lets keep it real.

There are terrific tracks not being used because of the brain donors up north, the 'gente' didn't shout very loud, and if they did it went unnoticed in Petone.......FFS, someone put their hand up, someone's responsible, someone........

I remember a wonderful Riccarton, is that so horrible, if there is no strategic plan for the place, then sell the whole shebang off and build a fit for purpose facility to suit all.......problem solved, just make a fucking decision.......for the sake of the younger generation....you old farts.

They closed Caulfield for training, and most, most went out to two purpose built wonderful facilities at Cranbourne and Pakenham......it's called progress, FFS........the lunatics are loose in the asylum, we know it, and unfortunately they know it.....you know it makes sense.

[curious]

9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

One less reason to run them there if the track is fucked.  If the leading trainer doesn't give a stuff about the condition of their local track who else is going to?  Chickens and roosts.

I might come back to it but relocating the Guineas has nothing to do with the thread topic. Nomate's original post was about the potential downgrade of a number of pattern races as well as a reduction of their number and Goodson's comments on that. Their were some very good pertinent posts on that in this thread initially but it seems to have gone completely off track.

As far as the Riccarton track is concerned, it is what it is and I think I read that a full renovation is in the wings. Riccarton currently is a very good training centre especially with the introduction of the AWT. I realise there are some anomalies due to track availability etc. I don't think it would be viable to build a custom training centre elsewhere from scratch. In the same way, there was no point jumping up and down at the time the current track was laid once the issues emerged (no money or time to relay it) but it has been lived with long enough.

I generally agree with Pitty that it is advantageous to owners with horses trained there to be able to race there for the most part with today's transport costs among other things. Now maybe we can get back to the topic.

Edited October 4, 2022 by curious

[Reefton]

10 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I know it's past your bedtime over there, but........I'm referring to the demise of racing in the south, mainly HQ, Riccarton, the state of the track, the training tracks other than the new toy, and all things shit.....the grandstand, the insurance fuck up, it's becoming like Trentham, soon the crowd will be,   trainers, owners, jocks, strappers, vet, barrier staff and the three drunks and the P addict that have been sleeping rough in the urinals........and the two old ladies at the Tote windows.........and maybe the junk food purveyor in the van of old.......shall I go on. Lets not count the committee room, that's cheating, lets keep it real.

 

Ah I know you don't frequent the place but on all but about three days of the year that is what Riccarton has  been like for years.

Much as it is(or should be) the best track in the south if not the country it is a shocking place to watch a race due to the distance they are from you and that stinking nor easterly that seems to blow every time I go there.  The vast majority sit inside and watch the TV's and accordingly why would I travel three hours there and three hours back?

I've only been there once(to Sydney) but Riccarton is an awful long way from Royal Randwick.

Agreed 200% re time to relocate - been saying it for years

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

The Guineas grading has a lot to do with the track.  Was Hawke’s Bay canned because the track was going to be too heavy to allow a class horse to win?  The best horses don't actually race that well on too hard or too heavier a track.  The latter often results in a roughie winning like a Roc de Cambes mudder that doesn't go on to win much else let alone compete in OZ.

Given the parlous state of out tracks and the downgrade warnings on our group races will we see more decisions like last weekend?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The Guineas grading has a lot to do with the track.  Was Hawke’s Bay canned because the track was going to be too heavy to allow a class horse to win?  The best horses don't actually race that well on too hard or too heavier a track.  The latter often results in a roughie winning like a Roc de Cambes mudder that doesn't go on to win much else let alone compete in OZ.

Given the parlous state of out tracks and the downgrade warnings on our group races will we see more decisions like last weekend?

 

Thankfully most Roc de Cambes that cross the ditch win on all surfaces, and not all are stayers either.........

[Reefton]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The Guineas grading has a lot to do with the track.  Was Hawke’s Bay canned because the track was going to be too heavy to allow a class horse to win?  The best horses don't actually race that well on too hard or too heavier a track.  The latter often results in a roughie winning like a Roc de Cambes mudder that doesn't go on to win much else let alone compete in OZ.

Given the parlous state of out tracks and the downgrade warnings on our group races will we see more decisions like last weekend?

 

Just tell us the last time 2000 Guineas day was marred by the track?  1000 Guineas day two years ago was a debacle but the first day was a perfectly acceptable track.

The issues with the Riccarton track are generally in early Spring and Autumn - by Cup time it seems to have settled and anyway it appears the use of the AWT and resultant less pressure may have alleviated the main track issues(to be fair I haven't been watching the Riccarton grass track racing closely so stand to be corrected there by Pam)

There haven't been too many complaints about Ellerslie at Derby time so why is the Derby under threat?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

On 10/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, mikeynz said:

Totally agree, I'm not convinced about the ABs, wait until they play in Europe later, but one can't deny Aussie ain't that flash at present, maybe Mr Friedman might be right on his observations on our racing but sometimes Aussies can be a bunch of self righteous wogs.

Oh, cmon, we've been down that track, Wogs? do you know what that means per chance? I bet you don't, When I arrived in Oz in April 1973, I worked in a factory and rode work in the morning, I worked with a lot of Yugoslav ladies, lovely women, they couldn't understand why there were referred to as Wogs......it was actually Wops, that was the derogatory name given to Italians, Greeks and Baltic/Mediterranean immigrants.......Wogs was the derogatory word for people of colour, as in....Golliwog......I hope you are now au fait Mikey.

Oh by the way, it's Freedman, my next door neighbour for 5 years at Flemington, and a great family of horsemen, highly intelligent with the results to match.....no one gets near DLF, the record book proves that.

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Reefton said:

There haven't been too many complaints about Ellerslie at Derby time so why is the Derby under threat?

It's all interconnected.  Crap tracks throughout the country limit opportunities.  I guess Ellerslie being renovated will help.

I haven't seen a decent surface at Riccarton for years.

[Chief Stipe]

BTW resting Riccarton by using the AWT and cancelling winter turf racing isn't going to fix the supposedly premier South Island turf track.  Ambivalence and meek acceptance by stakeholders has bought the chickens home.

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

BTW resting Riccarton by using the AWT and cancelling winter turf racing isn't going to fix the supposedly premier South Island turf track.  Ambivalence and meek acceptance by stakeholders has bought the chickens home.

The trouble is they let so called 'experts' near the bloody thing in the  first place twenty or thirty years ago.

Not unlike the 'expert' Managers that they employ to run NZ racing and the TAB.  Most of us know the bigger the 'expert' the bigger the cockup they make of things

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

It's all interconnected.  Crap tracks throughout the country limit opportunities.  I guess Ellerslie being renovated will help.

I haven't seen a decent surface at Riccarton for years.

For a place that lacks a decent surface they run some fairly smart times at the place.  Even a very average animal I had a share in broke 33 for the last 600 in a 2year old race. I'd hate to see what they would run for 1200m if the track was up to scratch.

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, Reefton said:

The trouble is they let so called 'experts' near the bloody thing in the  first place twenty or thirty years ago.

Not unlike the 'expert' Managers that they employ to run NZ racing and the TAB.  Most of us know the bigger the 'expert' the bigger the cockup they make of things

For a place that lacks a decent surface they run some fairly smart times at the place.  Even a very average animal I had a share in broke 33 for the last 600 in a 2year old race. I'd hate to see what they would run for 1200m if the track was up to scratch.

FFS you can run a fast time on concrete - ONCE!

A fast time does not equate to longevity for a horse.

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

FFS you can run a fast time on concrete - ONCE!

A fast time does not equate to longevity for a horse.

Is that right?  Well the two year old I mentioned(Thunder Bay) twice ran up against - and finished second to - a fair two year old of the time (and on the first occasion ran a tick over 33s and the second well under 33s for her last 600).

That fair two year old(who went a lot faster than her each time) went on to win multiple group ones and $2.1m - its name was Avantage

So twice running on 'concrete' did not appear to do her any harm.

 

[Freda]

20 hours ago, Reefton said:

The trouble is they let so called 'experts' near the bloody thing in the  first place twenty or thirty years ago.

Not unlike the 'expert' Managers that they employ to run NZ racing and the TAB.  Most of us know the bigger the 'expert' the bigger the cockup they make of things

For a place that lacks a decent surface they run some fairly smart times at the place.  Even a very average animal I had a share in broke 33 for the last 600 in a 2year old race. I'd hate to see what they would run for 1200m if the track was up to scratch.

I agree with the 'expertise' allusion.

However times have generally been quick at Ricc, since the renovation in 1998.  Good horses can really fly - but even moderate ones go fast as well, it may have something to do with layout, camber, incline, whatever, but the trouble is, it isn't consistent.    And horses will cop a couple of runs on unforgiving ground, but most can't manage too many.    

Years ago, not long after renewal, I had a very average horse which posted a time of 1.10 for his 1200 mtrs.    Fair go, he couldn't have run 1.10 downhill with a tail wind.

[Joe Bloggs]

Absolutely, times can be ever so deceiving, we've got tracks here 1000km from anywhere and old timers sacked from big city stables are running 1-9......and 1-21.......for 6 and 7 furlongs..........Trentham is a dog leg same as Riccarton and times are unreal...............in summer of course. Around the circle it's a tad different, days of running 1-33 for the mile are long gone, as is the calibre of horse required to run such......IMO

[Reefton]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

I agree with the 'expertise' allusion.

However times have generally been quick at Ricc, since the renovation in 1998.  Good horses can really fly - but even moderate ones go fast as well, it may have something to do with layout, camber, incline, whatever, but the trouble is, it isn't consistent.    And horses will cop a couple of runs on unforgiving ground, but most can't manage too many.    

Years ago, not long after renewal, I had a very average horse which posted a time of 1.10 for his 1200 mtrs.    Fair go, he couldn't have run 1.10 downhill with a tail wind.

Mr Illusion ran 53 or something for 1000 on the old 'straight' chute there one day Pam before the renovations.  Re yours running 1.10 well as I said that Thunder Bay cracked 33 for 600 and she was a long way from a good horse (won a couple but no Winx or Avantage)

[Freda]

21 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Mr Illusion ran 53 or something for 1000 on the old 'straight' chute there one day Pam before the renovations.  Re yours running 1.10 well as I said that Thunder Bay cracked 33 for 600 and she was a long way from a good horse (won a couple but no Winx or Avantage)

Mr Illusion was a very good sprinter indeed.   Am I right in remembering that he was ridden by Jackie Oakshott ?  he had a ridiculously light weight and Jackie weighed about 47 kg dripping wet.

[curious]

2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Absolutely, times can be ever so deceiving, we've got tracks here 1000km from anywhere and old timers sacked from big city stables are running 1-9......and 1-21.......for 6 and 7 furlongs..........Trentham is a dog leg same as Riccarton and times are unreal...............in summer of course. Around the circle it's a tad different, days of running 1-33 for the mile are long gone, as is the calibre of horse required to run such......IMO

And the calibre of rider that still remembers how to ride them like that imo.

 

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Mr Illusion was a very good sprinter indeed.   Am I right in remembering that he was ridden by Jackie Oakshott ?  he had a ridiculously light weight and Jackie weighed about 47 kg dripping wet.

Nope.  Memory not accurate there

 

[curious]

4 minutes ago, Freda said:

Nope.  Memory not accurate there

 

Maree Davey maybe?

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Maree Davey maybe?

Reckon that would be more like it (Maree Lyndon?)

[curious]

11 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Reckon that would be more like it (Maree Lyndon?)

Yep. That's her. Apprenticed to Bruce Marsh when Woodville was a famous training centre and the first female to win a Group 1, the NZ Cup on Sirtain (back when that was a famous race).

Edited October 7, 2022 by curious

[Reefton]

Actually correct myself.  A little research indicates Mr Illusion ran 1000m in 55.91.  49.5kg and Maree Lyndon indeed 1983

Four year old stallion by Sovereign Edition from An Illusion.  Surprised he wasn't sent to stud bred like that

Edited October 7, 2022 by Reefton