nomates Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 Just watched Weigh In and they had Matt Goodson from NZTR on the show , he was discussing the possibility of the The Derby and 2000Gns being downgraded to G2 . At the last Asian Pattern Committee meeting both races were placed on a final warning , so unless this seasons running's meet the criteria required of of G1 races i.e. the average rating for such races , that being first 4 home averaging 115 , then both face being downgraded . He said that it was less likely to happen , why i don't know , his assumption is that last year was a poor rating year where as this seasons crop seems to be rating stronger . He said retaining our good horses was how this trend can be reversed and that with increased stakes he felt that we were doing just that , stretching credibility with that comment , if anything i see more horses leaving than ever . Two 3yo's in Lickety Split and Mr Maestro going basically straight to Australia to race would suggest that comment is unfounded . He also relayed the information that at the end of this season NZTR would have a major cull of our listed races , he said as the number of races run had reduced the percentage of listed races hadn't hence too many listed races that simply weren't good enough . Also saying that NZ's 20 G1's was too high in relation to overseas jurisdictions percentage wise . So it looks that finally our serious decline in quality racing is catching up with us , he felt that pattern committee should look at NZ racing a little more leniently but i say if you want to operate in the world environment then you operate within world guide lines and find ways to up your game . I have been suggesting for a while that this downgrading was in the wings and if they don't find a way to a) stop the number of horses sold off shore and b) increase stakes to a position that makes an owner decide to retain rather than sell , then this is just the start . It is possible in 10 years that our best races are no higher than G3 . Slightly scary , and bloody sad . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 Unfortunately, makes perfect sense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Centaur Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Freda said: Unfortunately, makes perfect sense. Why?? Its crazy trying to lineup races in different jurisdictions. Just an opinion at the end of the day. Whats more important is marketing to the general public. Every race should be treated as a group one. Iconic races such as the Wellington Cup with their history should always be promoted as Group One simply because of that. Let the breeding and buying criteria be consigned to the backroom. Racing public comes first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 1 hour ago, nomates said: Slightly scary , and bloody sad . Have no fear, it will be worse than what you suggest! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 5.9 Alerts Imposed G1 Hawke’s Bay Challenge Stakes Hawke’s Bay RC G1 Horlicks Plate Hawke’s Bay RC G1 Otaki-Maori WFA Otaki Maori RC G1 NZ Oaks Wellington RC G2 Hawke’s Bay Guineas Hawke’s Bay RI G2 Sarten Memorial Stakes Waikato RC G2 Eight Carat Classic Auckland TR G2 Auckland Guineas Auckland TR G2 Rich Hill Mile Auckland TR G2 Wellington Guineas Wellington RC G2 Waikato Guineas Waikato RC G3 New Zealand Cup Canterbury JC G3 Wellington Cup Wellington RC G3 Manawatu Cup Manawatu Rc G3 White Robe Lodge WFA Otago RC 27 G3 Wellington Stakes Levin RC L Timaru Cup South Canterbury RC L Dunedin Guineas Otago RC L Southland Guineas Southland RC L NZ St Leger Wellington RC5.10 Alerts Removed G1 Thorndon Mile Wellington RC G1 NZ 1000 Guineas Canterbury JC G2 Wakefield Challenge Stakes Wellington RC5.11 Warnings Imposed G1 NZ 2000 Guineas Canterbury JC G1 NZ Derby Auckland TR G1 Levin Classic Wellington RC G1 Manawatu Sires’ Produce Stakes Manawatu RC G2 Avondale Cup Auckland TR G3 Stewards’ Stakes Canterbury RC L Welcome Stakes Canterbury JC 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 3 hours ago, The Centaur said: Why?? Its crazy trying to lineup races in different jurisdictions. Just an opinion at the end of the day. Whats more important is marketing to the general public. Every race should be treated as a group one. Iconic races such as the Wellington Cup with their history should always be promoted as Group One simply because of that. Let the breeding and buying criteria be consigned to the backroom. Racing public comes first. Geez TC I can't agree with that, this years foal crop is the smallest ever, as much as I detest the breeding cartel, without breeders there are no horses, and to maintain a healthy foal crop you need buyers, one begets the other......black type is every breeders hope, its what keeps most going. I along with most of you fear for NZ racing, the administration has let us all down, the buck stops at the top, they wont take the responsibility for that though, so the misery is compiling, sadly....... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 Shit if the Derby and the 2000 Guineas are under threat then we have no hope. They are about the only two races along with the Oaks where the winner/placegetters are generally competitive in Aussie later in their Group One three year old races. If they are not Group Ones realistically do we deserve any Group Ones 5 hours ago, nomates said: So it looks that finally our serious decline in quality racing is catching up with us That serious decline in quality racing came after a serious decline in quality administration. Too many wankers looking to pad their CV's and not enough with a genuine interest in trying to further the interests of the game and its participants. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 6 hours ago, Reefton said: Shit if the Derby and the 2000 Guineas are under threat then we have no hope. They are about the only two races along with the Oaks where the winner/placegetters are generally competitive in Aussie later in their Group One three year old races. If they are not Group Ones realistically do we deserve any Group Ones That serious decline in quality racing came after a serious decline in quality administration. Too many wankers looking to pad their CV's and not enough with a genuine interest in trying to further the interests of the game and its participants. Unfortunately Goodson - along with his then sidekick, one G Purcell - demonstrated his lack of understanding of the nuts and bolts of process, when given the work done by two educated statisticians on the effects of handicapping policies, allowances, and so much more. All done pro-bono, and probably consigned to a drawer somewhere as clearly neither understood one side of it. Why he should now have a silver bullet, I fail to comprehend. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, Freda said: Unfortunately Goodson - along with his then sidekick, one G Purcell - demonstrated his lack of understanding of the nuts and bolts of process, when given the work done by two educated statisticians on the effects of handicapping policies, allowances, and so much more. All done pro-bono, and probably consigned to a drawer somewhere as clearly neither understood one side of it. Why he should now have a silver bullet, I fail to comprehend. A healthy industry has to have strength at the bottom levels. Throwing an extra 50k or more at Grp 1's won't stop the exodus of promising horses which can earn good money without being elite runners. Those with modest performers are still struggling, and the 14- 15k industry day stakes, while certainly better than the 7k on offer only a few short years ago, goes nowhere with the ever increasing coats across the board - and don't forget, we had 7k days some 30+ years ago [ ..and some pretty fair jockeys too, you could toss your colours into the jockeys' room and it wouldn't matter who picked them up.. ] Add the increasing number of tracks deemed 'not necessary' while those favoured ones are frequently unusable, no, sorry, Mr Goodson, I don't see any remedy in your mindset. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 4 hours ago, Freda said: no, sorry, Mr Goodson, I don't see any remedy in your mindset. At least the beginning of a remedy could be for Mr Goodson and his ilk to tender their resignations immediately. Just a suggestion... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Centaur Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 15 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said: Geez TC I can't agree with that, this years foal crop is the smallest ever, as much as I detest the breeding cartel, without breeders there are no horses, and to maintain a healthy foal crop you need buyers, one begets the other......black type is every breeders hope, its what keeps most going. I along with most of you fear for NZ racing, the administration has let us all down, the buck stops at the top, they wont take the responsibility for that though, so the misery is compiling, sadly....... Breeders perception of racing can differ from the public's. By all means have the breeding sector designate races as group ones which in most cases correspond with the publics view of racing. However I find it an own goal downgrading races which are popular with the public and therefore the best to market. It's criminal downgrading in any shape or form races such as the Wellington Cup which when aligned with the yearling sales was far greater in stature than the current Karaka Million races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted October 3, 2022 Author Share Posted October 3, 2022 19 minutes ago, The Centaur said: Breeders perception of racing can differ from the public's. By all means have the breeding sector designate races as group ones which in most cases correspond with the publics view of racing. However I find it an own goal downgrading races which are popular with the public and therefore the best to market. It's criminal downgrading in any shape or form races such as the Wellington Cup which when aligned with the yearling sales was far greater in stature than the current Karaka Million races. Unfortunately the general public don't have a feckin clue about the grading of races , if the meeting as marketed as a day out as long as there are horses there that's all they require . Those in the industry that understand the principles behind Group racing and black type , and i am not talking about the breeders , will be the first to tell you that the quality of NZ racing is in a rapid decline and most if not all our black type races from listed thru to G1's are all over rated for all the reasons we have talked about for years on here . I have been going to the Wellington Cup since 1974 and as much as i hate to say , the race is no longer iconic nor of good quality , you can't just give it G1 status because of it's history , if it worked that way i should still be able to pull 20 year olds , not a hope , that's called realism and the same is required when it comes to our "major" races . But i understand your feelings , it breaks my heart when i see where we have come from . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Reefton said: At least the beginning of a remedy could be for Mr Goodson and his ilk to tender their resignations immediately. Just a suggestion... And just to add to a very poignant post, where on earth is the trainers association on this, that rabble of paper tigers, sycophants, call them what you want, Chris Wood was the last straw for me, although he sprukes he 'left that mob', his written acknowledgement complimenting the good job Saundry did was insulting and reflects on the different attitudes shown by the north in comparison to those suffering most in the CD and the South. The industry is divided, and it shows, I don't understand how the large Canterbury stables did not show strength and a united front? maybe it's the age difference, as I'm an old fart, however to see ex Southern trainers earning a good quid up here in QLD says little for the provinces they left. At their age to have to up sticks to remain viable in an industry they obviously love proves that apathy and disrespect is rampant in NZ......not only in the racing industry, but across the board. The QLD or rather BNE trainers stood as one against a tyranny of stupidity, ignorance and authoritarianism displayed by the governing body and it worked, it had to, it was either them or us, so to speak, but it proved correct. Am I being severe, you betcha, why, cos I give a fuck, if I do and I'm 3000km away why the hell can't those that can do far my than I.....that's my worry, dont know why I do, but I do, silly fucker that I am. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Aussie commentator -Freedman?-observed more than a decade ago that NZ Grp1's were not worthy....of that status. He is proven right time and again. Nothing wrong with being realistic.Professional yearling buyers discount NZ Grp performance,albeit something is better than...nothing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeynz Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 hour ago, holy ravioli said: Aussie commentator -Freedman?-observed more than a decade ago that NZ Grp1's were not worthy....of that status. He is proven right time and again. Be fair to say most of their rugby players ain't up to test standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said: And just to add to a very poignant post, where on earth is the trainers association on this, that rabble of paper tigers, sycophants, call them what you want, Chris Wood was the last straw for me, although he sprukes he 'left that mob', his written acknowledgement complimenting the good job Saundry did was insulting and reflects on the different attitudes shown by the north in comparison to those suffering most in the CD and the South. The industry is divided, and it shows, I don't understand how the large Canterbury stables did not show strength and a united front? maybe it's the age difference, as I'm an old fart, however to see ex Southern trainers earning a good quid up here in QLD says little for the provinces they left. At their age to have to up sticks to remain viable in an industry they obviously love proves that apathy and disrespect is rampant in NZ......not only in the racing industry, but across the board. The QLD or rather BNE trainers stood as one against a tyranny of stupidity, ignorance and authoritarianism displayed by the governing body and it worked, it had to, it was either them or us, so to speak, but it proved correct. Am I being severe, you betcha, why, cos I give a fuck, if I do and I'm 3000km away why the hell can't those that can do far my than I.....that's my worry, dont know why I do, but I do, silly fucker that I am. I presume when you say 'large Canterbury Stables' you are talking about Pitty? Like our host on this channel there seems to be an attitude of looking to Pitty to make some difference or some effort to right the wrongs. I have to admit he is a mate of mine and has trained for me for a long time(admittedly generally only small shares but he still has done the training). He is also CRUCIAL to the well being of the Reefton Jockey Club(along with every other Trainer who supports us but he - and KT Myers - has the wherewithal to make a massive difference) So where does Michael stand? Well to be fair he is a lot closer to the end of his career than the start but he makes it quite clear - and repeatedly - he would be happy if all racing was at Riccarton and in particular is very fond of the good stake days. As he says it is cheaper for his owners to race there. For all that if he thinks he has one good enough he is not frightened to take on the Guineas, Derbys or Oaks either in NZ or beyond nor is he reluctant to travel to Trentham when the big carnivals are on(wrecked as the major one appears to be these days). There are at least two Southern Clubs that have treated him shabbily(apparently - I do not know the details of Invercargill but do in the case of Greymouth) and he accordingly rarely if ever goes there(but they seem to sail on without him so who cares?) . He is a fan of the all weather track(my jury is still out but I have to say AWT racing at Riccarton is a bloody sight better spectacle than running in the bowels of winter on the Riccarton Turf). My objection to it is the fact that the Provincial Growth Fund was used to fund it when its clear aim is to focus racing on Riccarton and shut down most of the southern country courses. So if the powers that be will not listen to anyone else in the game why would they listen to Pitty? He cannot do it on his own and I suspect he cannot be bothered with trying(most successful people - and I know a fair few - have an attitude of not worrying about things they cannot change). Unless you are in the Northern Trainer clique or the Breeder group nobody is going to listen to you until it is far too late - and I suspect it is already far too late. The type of people who get on the TAB and NZTR Boards and their administrators are no more interested in the opinions of the likes of MRP than fly to the moon. They are generally the type with a glossy CV and eff all else but in today's world when it comes to getting ahead that is what sells. Until we revert to the scenario where people who actually care are overseeing the game there is no hope and, as I said in the first sentence of this paragraph, I suspect the time for hope has come and gone. Sad but reality. And I for one would be out tomorrow if I could find someone to take over my role(as Club President that is and any horse ownership interests would quickly follow). They don't want us and they don't care about us and I no longer really care about them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 IMO for racing to survive firstly, then grow at Riccarton THEY do need to shout loudly! Pitty has a son, he's the future, or the hope of the side, not Pitty, I'm way older than him, but his son and the other stable that has numbers need to shout and gather support FFS.....I do fear it's too late Brian, no doubt there are people who wont stand behind those two, that's life, whether it's petty jealousy or small mindlessness who knows, but it's got to where it is because of one thing....Inertia! For Gods sake, shouldn't everyone stand shoulder to shoulder, forget differences to achieve just the one common goal. Our gen has a lot to answer for yes, and young blokes like Mathew need support, they wont have a fucking industry because of dicks like those that held the CEO and above jobs at Petone, there should have been massive militant action taken against the fools that destroyed our brilliant industry, the self interest of that small breast beating brigade that had the ear of the mental pygmies at HQ have prospered, while the majority are hanging on by their fingernails and stay only because they love horses, and in many cases are too old to do anything else. I don't apologise for being pointed and aggressive, if I lived there I would do a lot more than hit keys I can tell you that, I'd make life bloody uncomfortable for the select few, I's stand on Jackson St with a sandwich board and a megaphone. I do bet that there are more than a few that go to work in that building every day and who do give a damn, but are hamstrung and/or helpless to make change, that must be bloody hard, and there must be more club presidents and secretaries out there that draw blood through biting their bottom lip due to Petone and it's actions, however unless there is a damn revolution and the generals rally the troops nothing will change, and I just will never believe, never, ever that that's what all those committed, passionate surviving racing participants want for Riccarton and the South, if I'm wrong, then I'm a fuckwit and am wasting my time .......que sera que sera. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 6 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said: The industry is divided, and it shows, I don't understand how the large Canterbury stables did not show strength and a united front? About what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 6 minutes ago, curious said: About what? Um the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Um the track? If that's the case what about the track? Nothing has changed with it in 30 years. I thought maybe he meant the potential downgrading of the Guineas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 4 hours ago, mikeynz said: Be fair to say most of their rugby players ain't up to test standard. Be fair to say...if Foley had just kicked the ball out...The AB's would not have won the Bledisloe or the Championship....fizzer got..lucky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeynz Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 13 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Be fair to say...if Foley had just kicked the ball out...The AB's would not have won the Bledisloe or the Championship....fizzer got..lucky. Totally agree, I'm not convinced about the ABs, wait until they play in Europe later, but one can't deny Aussie ain't that flash at present, maybe Mr Friedman might be right on his observations on our racing but sometimes Aussies can be a bunch of self righteous wogs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 hour ago, curious said: If that's the case what about the track? Nothing has changed with it in 30 years. I thought maybe he meant the potential downgrading of the Guineas. So the local trainers have just accepted the crap track for the last 30 years? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 37 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Be fair to say...if Foley had just kicked the ball out...The AB's would not have won the Bledisloe or the Championship....fizzer got..lucky. WTF has that got to do with the Guineas being run at Riccarton? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: WTF has that got to do with the Guineas being run at Riccarton? you need to take that up with..Mikeynz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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