NZ Cup

[Freda]

The top-rated horse in this time-honoured race is southerner Asathought, on 85.    The bottom-rated is on 58.

And to add insult to injury there is also a R 82 2500 hcp.

The race has to lose what status it has, surely?

Stick a highweight in the programme, ffs.

[curious]

Bizarre that they would run an R82 stayers in direct competition to the cup and that is essentially an R75 anyway. Surely should have been a lead up race. Cup certain to be downgraded with that field.

[premixer]

Slightly off topic, has the 1000 guineas typically been a low nomination race?    Just looking through the fields after the above posts and noted only 9 starters? 

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

The top-rated horse in this time-honoured race is southerner Asathought, on 85.    The bottom-rated is on 58.

And to add insult to injury there is also a R 82 2500 hcp.

The race has to lose what status it has, surely?

Stick a highweight in the programme, ffs.

Oh no , can't do that , it's an ICONIC race , throw more money at it , and make it a G1 again .

[curious]

21 minutes ago, premixer said:

Slightly off topic, has the 1000 guineas typically been a low nomination race?    Just looking through the fields after the above posts and noted only 9 starters? 

14 last year and the year before so that is very light.

[Doomed]

At least "The Cup" will get a full field. Not many other feature staying races in recent times have attracted full fields. The 2,500m race is a time honoured event, always used to be the last race of cup week. Used to be the Otaio Plate I think. As you say though, times are changing, although it has attracted a decent sized field, most of whom wouldn't have wanted to race in the Cup.. The CJC don't really like to change things. Swapping the Welcome stakes and Stewards must have given them sleepless nights. They are probably most proud about having four maidens during Cup Week and getting reasonably full fields for them.

As mentioned above, the bigger worry is actually the 1,000 Guineas. It is going to be a shocker. I would say the worst ever. A Group 3 at best. And this after the biggest stake increase the race has ever had. Only two SI trainers interested, which is probably not totally surprising as there is only one 3yo fillies race as a lead up, and nothing in the deep South,  and no real 2yo racing in the SI so you can hardly expect there to be early season 3yos. You could hardly say the 2,000 Guineas was flash either. It can't be long before those two classics are history.

I have probably had my most successful Melbourne Cup Week and NZ Cup week ever. Been in France and not able to have a bet on the NZ TAB. In the UK now, where I can access the TAB, but it is very easy to get out of the habit when you have a few weeks off.

[Freda]

I presume your comment ' those two classics are history '  means, in their current placement.

[Doomed]

11 minutes ago, Freda said:

I presume your comment ' those two classics are history '  means, in their current placement.

Yes, I imagine someone else might want them. I presume Auckland would be the logical location so they might be safe in Canterbury for another year while Auckland gets its track sorted.

It is quite sad really. And to be honest this years fields can't be totally blamed on the CJC, we probably have the worst crop of 3yos racing in NZ at the moment that I can ever remember.

[Doomed]

And good luck with your filly today Pam.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

At least "The Cup" will get a full field

And so it should , it's the only R85 in the country worth 300k , Christ if i had a nice young stayer i would be giving him quiet ones all over the place to make sure i could get into this race as a R75 , because even at that rating your guaranteed a run . Bloody disgraceful field , or , is it a disgraceful stake considering the field was never going to be much better .

Wait till the 500k Auckland Cup rolls around , this will pale into insignificance .  

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

I presume your comment ' those two classics are history '  means, in their current placement.

Once the revamped Ellerslie opens watch the calls ( screams ) for the Guineas races to be relocated , the ATC CEO said it himself , " the best track should have the best races ".

But it makes sense , this year aside there is hardly ever a southern rep in either of the Guineas races . The travel alone ensures those that do go down and compete have to have a break after . 

I give it 5 years max before they are moved north .

[nod]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

I presume your comment ' those two classics are history '  means, in their current placement.

Yes, they will soon be history just like the N Z Derby and Oaks that used to be run at Riccarton.

[nomates]

53 minutes ago, Doomed said:

we probably have the worst crop of 3yos racing in NZ at the moment that I can ever remember.

I take offence at that , haha .

[nomates]

25 minutes ago, Doomed said:

And good luck with your filly today Pam.

Yeah go kill Pam .

[Ludwig]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

The top-rated horse in this time-honoured race is southerner Asathought, on 85.    The bottom-rated is on 58.

And to add insult to injury there is also a R 82 2500 hcp.

The race has to lose what status it has, surely?

Stick a highweight in the programme, ffs.

What alternatives/options are open to reverse this trend? Or are there none?

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Once the revamped Ellerslie opens watch the calls ( screams ) for the Guineas races to be relocated , the ATC CEO said it himself , " the best track should have the best races ".

 

Minor point here but that is assuming that the revamped Ellerslie is the best track.

Given the recent history of renovations with NZ racecourses it is a fair bet that there will be significant issues before it is anywhere near the best track in NZ.  It is important that this renovation does work but there have been plenty of examples where renovation does not

[nomates]

6 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Minor point here but that is assuming that the revamped Ellerslie is the best track.

Given the recent history of renovations with NZ racecourses it is a fair bet that there will be significant issues before it is anywhere near the best track in NZ.  It is important that this renovation does work but there have been plenty of examples where renovation does not

I get your point but they are doing it the right way , complete overhaul , and it's Strathayr , not just chucking some soil down and grass seed .

I honestly can't remember the last time a NZ track was closed for a complete track revamp , Pukekohe wasn't the whole track and it's on a swamp , Otaki has had bits and pieces , Riccarton was how many years ago but was it the a complete track re-lay ?

Anyway assuming they get it right the bigger issue for SI racing is the loss of the Guineas races .

[The Centaur]

I fail to see the logic in knocking the NZ Cup. This is a race that allows the bread and butter participants to exercise their wares. If there is a problem it's the absurd placement of the race as Race No. 11. Should be about Race 6 when there is maximum interest. Also the problem is North Island racing not giving more recognition to handicap racing.

The winner will be carrying the Bonecrusher colours so whats wrong with that?

[Freda]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

I get your point but they are doing it the right way , complete overhaul , and it's Strathayr , not just chucking some soil down and grass seed .

I honestly can't remember the last time a NZ track was closed for a complete track revamp , Pukekohe wasn't the whole track and it's on a swamp , Otaki has had bits and pieces , Riccarton was how many years ago but was it the a complete track re-lay ?

Anyway assuming they get it right the bigger issue for SI racing is the loss of the Guineas races .

Yes, it was a complete re lay, back in 1998.

[Freda]

5 hours ago, nomates said:

Yeah go kill Pam .

Thanks team, yes, good result,  could have been better but tried hard and still learning. ( and he's a boy )

[Ronaldo]

It's got worse for sure  , but goes back quite a way in lacking quality . I remember backing Ralph Manning's horse when it won at big odds. years back    When the reporter  asked him how it felt to win such a time honored race, his reply was "    Well basically in quality it is  just a race for highweight horses  and that is all it takes to win it "  Must have been around 1997 ?  To rub it in, the horse had bolted down the road that morning and done a fair bit of running already. 

[Freda]

7 hours ago, Ludwig said:

What alternatives/options are open to reverse this trend? Or are there none?

Well - IMO - the 'trend'  reflects the dumbing down of NZ racing as a whole, so overall, it would take a complete overhaul of the programmes, handicapping, all things that have been discussed/suggested ad infinitum but which have had no heed taken of them.

Locally ?  there are a couple of very smart posters who could re-vamp things in the southern arena, one in particular who has some very good ideas but they won't get any traction.

Chopping out provincial tracks is one thing that has to stop, market forces [ as has been said before ] will decide which venues stay and which don't, but to have them lost to racing just reduces local interest and accelerates the decline.

We know well that there is not the seemingly unlimited supply of money that flows in the wider Australian market, and while we can't 'copy' their operating systems without changing our whole mindset, there are things that could be done while working within a much more stringent budget.

 I don't have the skillset to kick-start things, however, others do.

[nomates]

15 minutes ago, Freda said:

Well - IMO - the 'trend'  reflects the dumbing down of NZ racing as a whole, so overall, it would take a complete overhaul of the programmes, handicapping, all things that have been discussed/suggested ad infinitum but which have had no heed taken of them.

Locally ?  there are a couple of very smart posters who could re-vamp things in the southern arena, one in particular who has some very good ideas but they won't get any traction.

Chopping out provincial tracks is one thing that has to stop, market forces [ as has been said before ] will decide which venues stay and which don't, but to have them lost to racing just reduces local interest and accelerates the decline.

We know well that there is not the seemingly unlimited supply of money that flows in the wider Australian market, and while we can't 'copy' their operating systems without changing our whole mindset, there are things that could be done while working within a much more stringent budget.

 I don't have the skillset to kick-start things, however, others do.

The most important aspect to start re aligning our racing on an upward tangent is to stem the flow of horses out of the country , trialled and tried especially  . That will happen when we have stakes that make owners think twice about selling , especially stakes in the lower grades and age group racing . Then reset the ratings system and have the lower grade races especially , run at set weights , so that a promising and consistent young horse doesn't have to be lumbered carrying carrying 60+ kgs just because it tries hard and is consistent but battles to win again because it struggles with the weight .

If an owner had a horse who they thought could win 3/4 races going thru the lower grades on it's merit and earn say 120k-150k quickly then they might think twice about selling for 50k - 100k , and if it is a good age group horse and could win 250k+ then again the owner will think twice about turning down the 300k+ offer , knowing they have money in the bank and still have the horse and the opportunity to increase the winnings .

We will never stop the huge offers and those sales , but if we can start keeping more of the middle and lower tier sales they become the higher rated horses of the future , and slowly increase the quality of our racing product .

Presently mostly we are left operating with the left overs , except for operators like Te Akau  and Go Racing who compete for the best and keep them racing  here .

Nothing changes until we start making changes . 

[Doomed]

As I have said before, I doubt the NZ Cup will be the worst Group 3 we will see going around in NZ this season.

As Pam said the whole pattern needs to be looked at. There seem to be endless feature meetings at Wingatui. Pouring money into their meetings seems to be no problem, but north of Dunedin, where most of the horses are, after Cup Week there is no feature meeting until 28 January. So any Canty horse that finds a bit of form this week then has almost a 3 month break before it can race for $30,000 again.

Likewise, it is months until there is any more 2yo racing, so it is hardly surprising very few Southerners bother with the Welcome Stakes.

I do think SI racing could tick away quite well, but the stakes and the dates are allocated poorly. Sadly, no one seems to have the ability or inclination to look at such things.