Why would Riccarton be irrigating?

[Reefton]

7 minutes ago, curious said:

Met service...

https://screenshots.firefox.com/x8o4jxD0Mu9yCWTQ/www.metservice.com

 

If the met service say no rain it is definitely going to piss down!

Better put my raincoat and gummies in the wagon!

 

[Freda]

Some suspicious looking dark clouds this morning,  a FREEZING cold southerly that did it's best to cut you in half,  but clouds gone,  sun shining,  and the wind,  although still brisk,  not anyhere near as cold.

Midday.

[Justamugpunter]

3 hours ago, Reefton said:

If the met service say no rain it is definitely going to piss down!

Better put my raincoat and gummies in the wagon!

 

the expected  rain meant for Dunedin  today threatened! but hasn't/didn't arrive...  looking at the 3 day rain radar it looks like the next southerly rain belt will be arriving Sunday!

ps. Lol! you are reminding me of the late great Mr Eales! he had set a horse for a Woodville meeting and it needed a hard and fast track!  (he had moved to Awapuni by this time), the jockey he had on for the ride was based in Woodville! the first phone call came in at 3am!!!  "please go outside and  see what the weather looking like! ", then the jock got another call every 30 minutes for the next 4 hours!  Noel was very strong on certain horses for certain courses on certain conditions!  happy to report the horse did the right thing and won! ?

[Reefton]

8 minutes ago, Justamugpunter said:

the expected  rain meant for Dunedin  today threatened! but hasn't/didn't arrive...  looking at the 3 day rain radar it looks like the next southerly rain belt will be arriving Sunday!

ps. Lol! you are reminding me of the late great Mr Eales! he had set a horse for a Woodville meeting and it needed a hard and fast track!  (he had moved to Awapuni by this time), the jockey he had on for the ride was based in Woodville! the first phone call came in at 3am!!!  "please go outside and  see what the weather looking like! ", then the jock got another call every 30 minutes for the next 4 hours!  Noel was very strong on certain horses for certain courses on certain conditions!  happy to report the horse did the right thing and won! ?

I am not actually expecting much anyway just a bit better run than in the bog last time.

Certainly do not expect to win(though it would be nice)

Edited September 21, 2018 by Reefton

[Reefton]

getting awful dark over Riccarton way(and it is a fair way off night time just yet!)

[Shad]

Maybe a clap of thunder on the way.

[Turny]

Cloud too high - no rain

[Shad]

As long as they keep plenty water on for cup meeting.

[wally]

3 hours ago, Reefton said:

getting awful dark over Riccarton way(and it is a fair way off night time just yet!)

nope no rain ill put the sprinklers on is that ok

[Shad]

43 minutes ago, wally said:

nope no rain ill put the sprinklers on is that ok

Hold fire till the last day of the cup meeting.

 

[Freda]

All clear....nice and dry

[hunterthepunter]

just as well track was watered  hot and dry in chch

[Shad]

Some certainly struggled with the firm conditions.

[Reefton]

12 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

just as well track was watered  hot and dry in chch

Hot?  It was a freezing(and I mean bloody FREEZING) cold easterly that's what it was. Riccarton is a prick of a place for that. And don't get smug just because it didn't rain  - the whole point was it was forecast and had it arrived it could have been a slow 7 or worse. And anyway there was something decidley odd about that track today - everything was winning from the front. And one would expect at the CJC HQ a more even pattern of winners.

Good racing but a real bias for front runners

Edited September 22, 2018 by Reefton

[Reefton]

And another thing.  Based on the times especially early on it was more like a dead 5 at best not a good 3. And there was some sort of material being thrown back too.  Might have been grass clumps but looked a bit suspicious to me.

[Freda]

Chief has repeatedly commented about soil strucure,  etc,  not just wrt Riccarton,  but many other tracks.

The top frequently chips out at Riccarton - whatever the rating -  and while class horses definitely can find a 'kick' on the firmer conditions,  the compacted nature of the ground means that some with joint and other issues,  feel the jar badly.

I don't profess to be an expert,  far from it,  but I can remember back to times when firm/fast tracks were the order of the day during spring and summer racing,  that's just what you got and the racing was super.

Back then it was the turf that provided the resilience and cushion,  not the soil underneath.  Nowadays, the brand of lush, soft  green grass  [ which looks admirable from the corporate boxes when mown in pretty strips ] has far less ability to cushion,  a team of 500 kg animals at speed just cuts through the sappy, soft material to the dirt underneath,  which must needs be dampened to provide the easing.

I recall, prior to one Easter meeting, back in the day of course manager Rob Lory [ mentioned in a post earlier ] I had walked around the track and happened to come across Rob doing much the same thing.

I commented upon the great sole of grass,  and quipped ' leave the sprinklers on a bit more,  Rob,  my crew likes the softer stuff'  to which he frowned at me and said  ' I water for growth,  NOT to affect the track conditions' .

Poor Rob copped a lot of flak for his efforts,  probably his reserved and taciturn nature didn't help in that regards,  but it wasn't until I spoke at length with Duncan Laing much later that I realised that he would have been following the 'best practice' manual left for him by Duncan.

Anyways,  my boys coped very well with the prevailing conditions,  finishing first,  third and fourth in the Easter Classic [ then 2000m ].

And as for commented upon  'leader's bias '  yesterday,  such a pattern is common when the rail is out.

 

[Freda]

8 hours ago, Reefton said:

And another thing.  Based on the times especially early on it was more like a dead 5 at best not a good 3. And there was some sort of material being thrown back too.  Might have been grass clumps but looked a bit suspicious to me.

One thing to remember,  Brian - horses run fastest times when they are comfortable to really stretch out.

[Reefton]

28 minutes ago, Freda said:

One thing to remember,  Brian - horses run fastest times when they are comfortable to really stretch out.

So what are you saying? Horses were not comfortable to stretch out there yesterday?  And if not why not? Seems like all this science and being able to read horses minds you lot are coming up with is simple bullshit. Bottom line is that track yesterday, early on at least, was not a good 3. 

As for a leader bias when the rail is out does the rail being out make for tight corners to advantage front runners at Riccarton? 

They've been saying it for years but there is always an excuse in racing whether it be for slow horses or deficient tracks, incompetant Ministers or bankrupt Clubs and the excuses are getting more and more exotic.

[mardigras]

50 minutes ago, Reefton said:

As for a leader bias when the rail is out does the rail being out make for tight corners to advantage front runners at Riccarton? 

As it seems to be often the case, my view is the contra to this. I don't believe rail out does anything to disadvantage back runners EXCEPT if the rail is so far out that a) the runners are cornering past any crown of the track or b) the track has become so narrow there is insufficient room for the horses.

I would say a) or b) is very rare. 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

So what are you saying? Horses were not comfortable to stretch out there yesterday?  And if not why not? Seems like all this science and being able to read horses minds you lot are coming up with is simple bullshit. Bottom line is that track yesterday, early on at least, was not a good 3. 

As for a leader bias when the rail is out does the rail being out make for tight corners to advantage front runners at Riccarton? 

They've been saying it for years but there is always an excuse in racing whether it be for slow horses or deficient tracks, incompetant Ministers or bankrupt Clubs and the excuses are getting more and more exotic.

I'm with Freda on this topic.  Her post was a reasoned one based on practical experience at Riccarton.

When we compare today's track conditions with yesteryear we shouldn't forget we are comparing two different measurement systems.  One used an umbrella and some experienced locals walking the track and coming up with a hard and fast, fast, good, soft or heavy rating.  

We now have a tool called a penetrometer and a series of point ratings.  Now the accuracy of that tool is dependent on a number of factors.  Has it been recently recalibrated, has its readings ever been calibrated against another tool for the local conditions, is the operator properly trained and is there a foolproof procedure for operating and collating the data.  I've never accepted that the penetrometer has ever been used with any degree of accuracy in NZ.  For a start it seems like too much work when there are other things to do with an approaching race meeting.

Secondly race times don't always reflect what the penetrometer says.  From what I've been told horses will instinctively protect themselves when running on conditions that they feel will hurt them.  It's a bit like you Brian shortening your stride when walking across the icy pub car park or when walking across the slippery path towards the chook yard.

Soil structure has the most significant influence on track conditions.  Take a Strathayr track.  You'll never get an F1 and it is hard to get a G2 on that type of track.  That's because the soil structure has artificial elements that help maintain its high quality.  It retains moisture when conditions are dry and it drains freely when conditions are wet.  Grass root deeply rather than shallow as they do on compacted soils.

Riccarton displays all the characteristics of a soil structure that is stuffed.  Ellerslie and Te Rapa are the same.

As for a leaders bias if you think about it if conditions are not conducive to horses letting down then if you are too many lengths off the leaders who have probably run soft early sectionals then you can't catch them.

[Freda]

Thanks,  Chief...and in response to Mardigras' observations about leaders' biases,  I could add that the choices of riders and their ability - or lack of - to judge pace has a bloody lot to do with that.

Take Bridget Grylls' ride yesterday,  the only rider in opposition to her setting very soft sectionals was The oft-maligned T Moseley who took the initiative to park himself on her girth and attempt to push her horse along a bit.

Unfortunately his mount lacked the ability to go on with things,  but at least he tried.

[mardigras]

Absolutely Freda. Riders not taking action for some reasons. If the pace is slow, their mount isn't disadvantaged by running to the pace that actually suits the horse, so should be attempting to run to that. Those that sit back doing nothing are allowing the races to unfold the way they do.

[barryb]

56 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Absolutely Freda. Riders not taking action for some reasons. If the pace is slow, their mount isn't disadvantaged by running to the pace that actually suits the horse, so should be attempting to run to that. Those that sit back doing nothing are allowing the races to unfold the way they do.

Agree entirely with Mardi, look at YNs win yesterday, circled early and kicked hard.

Even better when I backed it at $41

[Reefton]

You're all making excuses again. Was the track a good three or wasn't it? It was stated as such and a good three is firm.  In all my years I have never ever heard of a firm track where horses did not feel comfortable stretching out (unless it was too firm for individual horses of course but this was clearly entire fields) . Clearly that track was not a good three based on the times they were running.  You lot are like Donald Trump's mob trying to deny the reality we can see in front of us.  It looked to me that the grass was odd - like when the lawn gets away and you cannot mow it with the catcher - and I suspect that grass clippings were what was being thrown up.

For all that I reckon the racing was Ok but Winston needs to do something about that easterly - he is apparently God and has a friend they call the Messiah so he is bound to be able to fix it.

As for putting clay into a track that would strike me as total madness.  Clay holds water and what the hell do you want to hold water for? (especially when you have a track like Riccarton which really does get atrocious when wet and especially when you have a Track  manager always looking for an excuse to plaster water all over it).  Clay is why Kumara and Hokitika are bogs and it is now apparent to me how they stuffed Greymouth which was a beautiful free draining riverbed course but is now a shit hole when wet - I bet they put clay into it. All the more reason why they should not be touching courses.  

And getting back to these undulations - I have heaps of videos of Riccarton pre that work twenty years ago and I can't see any undulations.  More BS to justify a botched job. Mr Illusion certainly didn't seem to have trouble with 'undulations'

All in all these 'experts' have well and truly over complicated things and are now always seeking to justify the cockups.

And before you lot say I am living in the past can I ask if that is the past where NZ had a selection of top quality horses (for whom the Aussie's would sit up and take notice when they ventured westward), when there were a selection of jockeys who you would be happy to take to Aussie to ride your hopeful, when there were a selection of Kiwi Trainers (instead of just one now)  that the Aussie's respected, when meeting cancellations were a real rarity and when the officials (ie stipes) were really respected, and when you actually got the odd person onto our racecourses?  If that is the past they I don't mind living in it.

[curious]

Didn't see any races but the mdns ran 1.10 in the first and the R65 and open sprinters 1.09.5? Is that not consistent with a G3? Mardi may be able to assist with a relative performance indicator of the track condition that the times were consistent with?

If you ever walked up the straight at Riccarton prior to the so called renovation, you could hardly miss the undulations that were there and DID need fixing.

And yes, they removed mountains of topsoil in the process and laid a clay base. My memory's a bit hazy but I'm sure Freda can confirm or otherwise.