the galah

I agree brodie and tab should talk,but going by my experience and having spoken to another punter classified as a so called elite punter,it would be a waste of time for him. The people from the tab who liase with the elite customers(their elite team) would do there best to help,but the bean counters with no brains in the other departments would stop anything constructive coming from discussions. so yes,brodie should talk to the tab,but only so he could add to his posts,i've talked to the tab and that was a waste of time. I know my hypothetical won't happen,but to me there is logic in what i say as i believe it could well work and create income for the tab. whether the time and resources v returns is that good only giving it a go would tell. The main point there was to highlight how small place pools are very unattractive to bet into and bigger ones are enticing. Also ,when it comes to pool size,how much of the win pools are being inflated with money offloaded from bookies holds to mitigate their losses. That wouldn't happen to the same extent for a place. My theory is the tab/enatin is promoting the win pools more on their graphics because theres more money in it for them in that they can offload their liabilites in their holds on ff win,onto the tote,whereas they can't with the place pools. Personally i know everyone i know that bets prefers to back each way. I have met a win punter or two,but the win punters bad days are far higher than the place punters. Sure they win more on a good day,but i have always thought the best way to keep the $ flowing to reinvest is from betting more on the place than the win pools. Thats why i prefer the place pools as well. Its the same with any form of gambling anyway isn't it. pokies,lotto,etc. They all keep their customers reinvesting by returning wins in lesser amounts while keeping them chasing the big win. I also saw a good entain ad on last night in the middle of the film monster ball. It was promoting its hosts and the new free to air channel. That at least made some sense.

heres another different hypothetical solution to the brodie issue,from the ones i suggested earlier in year. The tab currently guarantee some pools. Why not have 3 or 4 races on some racedays with guaranteed start pools of $10,000 already invested by the tab on the place tote. All they would have to do is calculate the $10,000 they invest to have the starting pool place prices have a starting point reflecting the ff prices they have set.Obviously they would be slightly higher given the tab bank on taking bigger % from ff than they do tote.from there further money invested by punters changes the prices as happens now. Then if brodie saw a horse paying $3 for a place on the tote at the last minute that he thought its real price should be $2.50 ,then brodie could invest his $1000 a place on the tote and the price would only drop to arounbd $2.40-$2.50.That would happen and is calculated on the 10,000 guaranteed pool,plus the average $6.000 we currently get. Brodie happy,the tab happy as while the tab return from that horse not as much ,they getting the extra $ commision from money brodie bet,plus their return on the other placegetters would have increased . Win/win. Then more and more punters get involved on those race tote pools,returns go through the roof and all punters and tab, live happily ever after.

Having seen them for a bit longer,i still like the colours and the less clutter on the picture seems better. But i do agree about the place odds and would like to see results.I can't see why they can't interchange it with the win odds occasionally if they want to keep just the 2 columns. probably the most confusing thing i find is when they show a race with the current first 4 placegetters numbers at the bottom of the screen.Not sure whether someones already mentioned it ,but my brain is finding it hard adjusting to seeing them have the leader on the right of the screen going down the back straight and then on the left of the screen coming down the front straight. The way it changes back and forth is especially confusing in the longer races.

You must have great genes in your family. Last week you were refering to betting when they had the yellow tickets that closed 90 minutes before a race and being alive since brodie was a fetus.How did grandma go in last weeks triathalon? but seriously,brodie and i just are saying things that are real that we have experienced. The way i see it is,there is a problem going forward and that problem is reduced levels of wagering on harness racing. But some people can't see the need to address the contribution tab policies have contributed to less wagering. Until those people recognise that problem needs to be addressed,then they will never look and find a solution.Recognising a problem is the first step in taking steps to fix it.Thats not happening on this topic. TAB/entain have a deliberate policy of restricting winning ff punters,yet offer no alternative policies as a compromise which would be a win/win for each party. I've previously given compromise options that would achieve that. I'm not saying winning punters like brodie would take that opportunity,but at least there would be an alternative. As to anyone betting on the tote. if the average place tote pool is about $6,000. Say someone puts $500 on a horse paying $3 at the last minute as they believe $2.50 is more a true reflection of its chances. Well the $500 invested on the tote will see the odds reduced to about $1.75. In other words only a stupid punter would do, that. Brodie isn't stupid.So betting on the tote for someone who invests those amounts is not a viable option.Even amounts half that size influence tote dividends too much to make it worthwhile if your putting place bets on.Surely people have worked out by now, that is part of the reason place pools have been dropping.

Where you go wrong is categorising every winning ff punter the same.Just like the tab does. I won at fixed odds,apparently i had done it month after month for some time.Thats what i was told when i was discussing why i was closing my account.They had rung me to try and persuade me to keep it open. What the tab bookies failed to take into account is my contribution to tote turnovers and the % the tab was taking from turnover i helped generate. I can guarantee it was far greater than any winnings i had on ff.The elite customer service people could see the big picture,but not the bookies. Also what they did was put algorithms on accounts which directly meant i was better off placing the bets on ff,instead of the tote.In other words,through their policies i was better off betting on what they didn't want me to bet on.I kid you not.I'm just telling you as it is. The whole argument that if your a winning fixed odds punter,then your automatically classified as a liabilty ,that argument is flawed. But for some reason,people just don't seem to get that. Then of course the tab never factor in other things of relevance. e.g. contribution as owners/breeders/sponsors,etc that winning punters may put their profits towards. Also how about the tab/entain look at themselves in the mirror. Why can't they do what capable bookmakers do,that is create a balanced book that will see them making a profit whatever the outcome of an event.

Pretty much sums it up. Tabforever is saying something we agree with in regards to how to increase turnover,and we are saying the customers he describes are people like us and others we know like us. Us being,not just punters who win on ff odds that the tab may not want,but being a cross section of both ff and tote punters who in the big picture, generate much greater money for the industry than they take out of the industry. So until the tab/entain cotton on to how to use and view them as an asset and not a liabilty,then enatin/tab are on a road that leads to nowhere.

your saying someones going to keep money aside to bet after seeing an ad on mainstream tv a couple of days before, promoting win bonus bets back if you run 2nd to 4th, at an australian race meeting that starts late in the afternoon, after most of the nz races are over. Maybe,but surely there can't be too many of those people around. Also,if they are doing that,they have to be doing it online on their accounts,as it only applies to that,so most would keep that to themselves wouldn't they? Personally i don't know any punters who have thought like that,but possibly your right as there would be some degenerative punters out there. But,if they are degenerative punters then there would be many opportunities for them to lose their money in the days before the advertised free bonus back bets.

I've had just the one small business experience, that was part of a co-operative. At one point i did put forward proposals on how the business could market itself and increase customer numbers.I did a lot of research. Pretty much what my research clearly indicated,is exactly what you have said,so i'm very much on the same page as you in that regard. The only couple of things thing i would add that i believe are. If you do decide to use advertising to attract new customers,you should target the advertising at people similar to those that are your existing customers.Then you factor in why word of mouth and providing a product/service that is an enjoyable and efficient experience is most important, as your existing customers are already mixing in the circles of your potential new customers. I think the same principles applies when considering promoting racehorse ownership. And that is why i have always considered racing places too much emphasis on young people. Sure plant the seed early,through things like country racing ,but best target them when they are at stages in their life where they have the money to participate in your product.Syndicates is a component that can promote younger participants. And of course BGP a very good example of that.

Sure enough Aardies express wins by a length in 1.48.9,after sitting 3 wide then without cover for the last 1000m. Just too good although was asked for the effort to do it. The thing that surprised me was the price. I had thought $2 was great,but it ended up at $2.80 on the tote and $2.70 on the ff for a win. The money came for its stablemate manhattan which was the big shortener. What was a bit of a shame was the mare still seemed to be a bit sore somewhere and jack trainor seemed to steer a wider path in the back straight as she had a tendency to move in on the bends. A very good mare,just hope she handles the racing ok. i though fate awaits went very good gammalite. Ran 3rd. But the couple of 2 year old races i saw were dominated by the clayton tonkin horses. What was interesting was how big a gaps there was between the winner ,then place getters,then the bulk of the field. 7 of the first 9 races were won by horses paying $2.50 or under at melton. The other 2 races the winners paid just over $20,with the red hot favorites running a place.

I guess the cost of advertising has never been cheaper for some time. Personally i believe its something that entain should do,but it has to be targeted and marketed properly. In that vein,i give you an example of where Entain dropped the ball. Instead of giving $25,000 back to Boys Get Paid last week,they could have spent it on showcasing that nights racing with ads in mainstream media.. $25,000 would have gone a long way. Just imagine them spending that on ads with video clips of the Boys get paid cheering their bets on at the races,winning connections after the races were run,matt cross jumping for joy after he won the $50,000. It was all there,the excitement harness racing and all racing can generate,but no,entain instead of promoting the sport in that way,chose to give a gift to the BGP. The BGP would have been better off getting free exposure on mainstream media in a video clip,than being given money. So much of what happens i can make no sense of,but its not me making the calls. As to montana being owned by the entain man. Yes i had thought that was the case although i wasn't 100% sure of exactly the level of his connection with montana ltd. My points around that bonus scheme and what hrnz and entain said the goals were. The main one was to increase 2 yo numbers starting. surely they must have known that never made any sense. Like its as if they were saying people would race their 2 year olds,knowing their 2 yo still weren't going to have anymore chance of winning than they did the year before,because they still had the same ability,bonus or no bonus. It will only be late in the year when that may be a factor,but not for great numbers. So i'm also making the point that self interest appeared to be significantly behind the decision for those bonuses.Surely its not just me that sees the people who came up with the idea of the bonuses were the ones who are winning the bonuses. Self interest decisions are made in all aspects of peoples lives,but that doesn't make it right. There has to be more depth in the thinking when decisions like that are made,otherwise things will never improve.

Thanks. I lkie the way, you like the way i think. Hrnz are spending $750,000 on bonuses for the owners and breeders of the 2 year old winners..That seems to be doing very little to increase field sizes. I see montana park got another one of those last nightfrom those small fields they have. Montana park,who is that,must be pleased entain and hrnz are so generous with money that would seem better spent elsewhere. Just imagine if they were to spend half that money running the ads i mentioned. They could do it for a couple of months, just before the bigger carnivals, and it would significantly increase the general publics knowledge of industry participants and horses. The cost of tv ads has never been cheaper in the right timeslots.They could cut a deal where they run them as the first or last ad break.Produce the content themselves. If not,what about them trying that on the stuff website.They are always desperate for new advertisers Whenever i click on the news on stuff,there are these adds that always pop up between the news stories. normally for real estate. All they would have to do is caption them right to gain the attention of the reader. They are what people are looking at these days.It doesn't always have to be clips or headlines related to high achiever. There are many feel good stories in harness racing that don't actually win but people are rooting for. Its all about spending where you gain the most exposure . Harness racing has the product,its just doesn't get the expsore or is sold to maximise returns.

Aardies express makes its australian debut toinght in race 6,a $50,000 mares race.The former telfer trained mare now being trained by jack trainor.10.42p.m. Interestingly,its price has drifted from $1.80 to currently $2.20. Shes had 2 trials. The first she paced a bit rough like she may be a bit sore like she was over here. But then a week later came out and jogged a mile in 1.51.7. Her gait wasn't perfect but was a lot better than the week before. probably the best mare to go to australia for a while,so it will be interesting to see how fluent her gait is and how dominant she can be. going on her latest trial she should run 1.48 in second gear. All the money seems to have come for a clayton tonkin trained horse,soho historia. I see its won 13 of 32 starts,although i've never heard of it myself. I see in a preview of the 2 and 3 year old racing at melton tonight they refer to emma stewart as being the co trainer with clayton tonkin,although just his name seems to be the officail trainer. Not sure how that works. Does emma stewart still have a stay of penalty? Anyway,will aardies express show what she can do? Tonight will tell.

I think we all find the reports interesting as each of us has their own view on what we think is fair and whats not. Yesterday there was some interesting decisions which i think people could view a little differently. Paul Nairn got a 10 day suspension when driving the trotter forgiveness in race 2. i can understand that one. In his defence you could say,well the horse may have broken had he used more vigour. Maybe thats right as its a horse that just gallops for little reason if pressured,so its a tricky one for nairn when driving. But he did carry a whip and i think he just didn't quite look to show enough intent between the 200m and the 50m.I guess he got a longer suspension because hes been found guilty of that previously. I can understand why hemay feel a little frustrated he got found guilty,but what choice was there when you look at the video. Then you have the trevor grant case adjouned for a written decision. His drive at motukarara was on the 1st of april,and maybe the punters who backed him thought they were april fools after watching him in the final 200m. Now his case looked as clear as day so not sure why he defended it. But the decision will be interesting. Then you had lionel dobbs. He started the day by admitting a whip infringment from a couple of weeks ago and got suspended for 3 days.Then in race 7 he was charged with using the whip in more than a wrist flicking motion in the home straight. Now,mr dobbs doesn't have the greatest success record when it comes to his driving. one 3rd from 118 drives. But there is no doubt he can train a racehorse,just by looking at how well his small stable of gallopers go,especially emanon who has won $323,000. His horse yesterday,betterthandiva, fought hard all the way to the finish and ran a very creditable 4th. but as to his drive,I can see why the stipes looked at his drive,but shouldn't they take into account that mr dobbs is a very tall person. Did the way he drove down the straight really warrant the 5 day suspension he got? Personally i don't think so.

I just wonder who the punters they think are watching the tv ads that will be enticed to bet on the perth races? Also,i've looked at the tab website but i can't see any mention of the first 4 races being bonus back.Its on mainstream tv but not obvious if look at the perth races on their website. i find the whole thing a bit strange. I'm all for tv ads on mainstream tv. They don't seem overly costly. I would imagine given they produce their own clips that entain may be paying roughly no more than $500 for screening of the adds. They say a 30 second ad on tv 3 in the middle of the news costs about $9,000,so i can't imagine the ads at the timeslots they were using would be much. But how about use ads that possible customers can relate to and promotes nz racing. For example why not highlight say blair orange,the postman,will he deliver tonight. Highlight in say 3 x 15-30 second clips over a 1 hour timeslot the last 400m of his best placings for the night.Just start off the clip with his horse ringed. Raise the profile of industry participants who people will follow. It would be easy enough for the likes of the dunns as they are always in the same colours. someone at tracside could put that together in a short time and just play it the same night or next night ,whatever works for the tv . All i'm say,just use the tv ads in a way that actully may promote the industry,which would have an impact in attracting future punters spending.

I saw a couple of times a couple of days ago ,adds on 2 of the mainstream tv channels,from memory tvl 1 and 4. Only very short adds,promoting bonus back bets of up to $50 if you rback a horse that runs 2nd to 4th ,to win......at perth on saturday. you have to ask yourself,what value is that advertising to the nz racing industry? Races at perth run ,which will only start after nz meetings are finished. Perth,australia,i mean its not nz racing.No bonus back on nz racing. Another thing that i have noticed. Is it just me,or is the message that free to air racing is back,not been promoted in a way that it should be. Like i haven't even seen anything at the couple of tab's i visit that racing is back on free to air.

Easier than what that lady in brazil had to do. She was arrested this week for taking her dead uncle to the bank in a wheelchair, a couple of hours after he had died,trying to make out he was consenting to the withdrawal. They have a video on line showing the teller saying "i don't think this is legal,he doesn't look well,hes very pale".

Reading some of the stories that have come out of the USA recently. One thing that seems pretty clear. That is the UTSA leadership is viewed as one of the major problems for the sport going forward. Many articles have been written about many different examples of that. The lastest was relating to the UTSA getting involved on behalf of high profile owner and lawyer,howard taylor. Howard Taylor was one of the owners whose horses have been banned from competing at jeff gural operated tracks,due to being tied up with the massive drug cheating scandel,that many went through the courts in the last couple of years. The UTSA has tried to put pressure on the john campbell led hambletonian society who stage many of the bigger stakes races and breeders crowns. They want the hambletonian society to join the fight against gural ,but john campell has said jeff gural has every rite to do what he has done and they won't be changing venues. A recent article written by the well read paulick report said "lts telling the UTSA have chosen to prioritize an investigation into taylors exclusion but not priorotize an investigation iinto the merits of the allegations that prompted the exclusion. The UTSA want us to believe the real scandel here is gurals reaction to taylor being named on fishman'(the drug cheating peddlers) list,not why taylors name was on the list in the first place." Of course you only have to look at how the UTSA dealt with other aspects of that massive cheating scandel. The UTSA chose to throw the book at the whistleblowers who chose to come forward,admitting their own involvement and providing evidence and shining light on the cheaters. It was widely seen as a statement from the UTSA ,if your going to air harness racings dirty washing in the public,then we are going to punish you big time. We,the UTSA do not want dishonest deeds having any light shone on them." Just this week on the alumini harness show that had an official from the state of indianna saying how he feels indianna leadership has no integrity ,with a possible insinuation of who has been putting pressure to remove him from his job. That offical stating that he would only work in harness racing agian if he were to be employed by someone with integrity which is why he is no longer employed in indianna. Then you have had not that long ago the story about how in certain states the draws for some of the higher stake races were apparently rigged. Theres much more,but what it seems is there is a real clash of some high profile paticipants with the decisions and personalties of the leadership of the UTSA ,who are seen as lacking in integrity. It really sounds like harness racing in some place over there is led by people who place their self interests ahead of anything else. Then you have the UTSA fighting in court the introduction of rules which introduce policies relating to racetrack safety,anti doping and medication control.(called HISA). Stats are already showing that in the districts which have embraced the HISA rules,racetrack horse deaths have shown a significant drop. That has given the thorougbred industy over there some respite from the bad publicity about racehorse deaths.

Just read on the hrnz that Allamericanlover has also been retired to stud. A top mare who the Telfer stable got the best results possible from. Majestic man had 105 starts over 8 years of racing. allamericanlover had 35 starts over 4 years. Both top horses,and both able to achieve the results their ability allowed. Allamericanlover i had thought for a year or so now seemed to be troubled by soreness somewhere if you observed her gait,so she did very well to win what she did. Both the horses mentioned epitomize the courage of the horse. An element of drawing out that quality is not only them wanting to win for themselves,but also wanting to win for the people who care for them each day. theres nothing worse than having a horse and thinking, what might have been if only that didn't happen, sort of thing,so its always good to see it can happen,even if it be to others.

Well done to the connections of majestic man,from the owners to the williamsons,they have always placed a high priority on the horses well being and they have decided now is the time to retire him. Having been such a talented horse,he had 24 wins and earned $855,545. . Thats a lot of money. as the write up on his retirement noted, he "was a noted short course specialist with devastaing gate speed and was a multiple group 1 winner across the tasman". Even the best horses are not machines and sometimes very hard racing takes a toll on their bodies. At one point majestic man had a bleed when in australia and no doubt that would have been in the back of connections minds when considering whats best for majestic man. They say he will now live out his days on a property just out of oamaru. Horses like majestic man are once in a lifetime type horses and the fact that he got to show that for his connections and to punters was a great thing.

I agree with the biting the hand the feeds you,but funnily enough think its the other way around from what you mean. Take me for example. I no longer bet much.I no longer have an entain/tab account and never will again. Why,well it was a consequence of a tab policy they implemented. I was never restricted on nz harness. I think that was because they recognised i was a smaller % of a syndicate that generated large tote turnover. But also because they knew that my ff bets were never large,mostly around $20. The policy they implemented did save themselves money on the ff payouts ,but not much,but cost themselves far more in % of take from $ no longer spent on the tote.I've explained how the policy they implemented worked previously. Thats why i say,its entain that has bitten the hands of many who have fed them. I'm certain i'm not the only one with a similar story. Also,you know you ring up the tab/entain and you say to them,hey this thing your doing,can't you see how much tote turnover you are losing because of that. And their answer,well yes,but the bookies do their own thing and they are the ones in control of the policy.Then they come back to you and say,hey we spoke to the bookies,they aren't going to change. You know how forrest gumps mumma came up with that "stupid is as stupid does" quote? She used to have an account at the tab.

Punters promise. Interesting to read it only applies to nz races and for a win bet. The last time i had a bet restricted,just before i closed my account a few months ago,was when i tried to put $20 ff for a place on a dog running in a non win 350m race at goulburn,nsw. The $14 profit a bit big for them to handle as it turned out. And i hardly ever bet on the aussie dogs,let alone made money on them,but they stopped me having that bet.Shame as it ran somewhere. Always the way.

Another thing thats struck me about some posts on this topic. Theres been an inference in some peoples replies that at the end of the day,once a few meetings have passed,BGP can never come out ahead on harness racing. I simply don't believe that. I only know a bit about their harness selectors,but i know the likes of matt markham and andrew fitzgerald are very good judges of form. I can't say for sure,but i would be very confident they would be winning punters overal themselves. Why would people think they couldn't bring that success with them to BGP. Besides,given BGP are so well organised as far as every other aspect of the syndicate goes,why wouldn't they be just as professional when it comes to tapping into using knowledgable and successful punters on harness. Personally i believe that is something underestimated by entain. I still think they should take their bets like they do,but entain shouldn't come crying to anyone down the track and start suggesting they should place unrealistic limits on BGP bets due to success they may have on the punt. Instead Entain must use it properly as a marketing tool if it happens. Thats a real possibilty in my eyes. Entain has to realise theyv'e taken the top off the jeannie bottle. You may just see a thousand brodies pop out if you start limiting bgp unrealistically in the future. Now wouldn't that be interesting.

I believe brodie has always been consistent. He hasn't said entain/tab should not accept sizeable bets from the BGP.He has asked why others are restricted so heavily. That is 2 different things. I agree with entain accepting large BGP bets is basically what you and tab forever and entain and others have put forward as to the overall picture of why. But very important is having a consistencyand fairness around how all punters are treated in comparison with each other. i think brodie is simply saying,i may be a winning punter. But entain should at least place high priority on the perception that punters can win,as its an extremely important factor in peoples motivation to bet . Brodies saying i have just as much rite as the next punter to be one of those winners.If your going to limit my bets,be realistic and still give me a fair chance to win a reasonable amount. Using the casino analogy you gave gamalite,brodies saying what would it do to customer numbers frequenting a casino if they knew no one wins. People go to a casino knowing the odds are against them,but there will still be many winners on the night and they believe they have a chance one of being one of them. Is the cost of having brodie win sometimes,and he won't always win as no one does,really that bad to warrant the level of restrictions they put on him?Do the negatives really outweigh the positives. i can't see whats unreasonable about that. if entain is taking a big picture approach to BGP and including all the syndicate members private betting,then why when it comes to brodie do they solely look at his betting only and not include the thousands of other punters who bet on the same race.

Its hard to follow the consistency in your logic tab forever.. Brodies on the money,the issue we have is with the tab/entain,not bgp. Perhaps the easiest way to explain what i mean is ask yourself this... How many times has brodie complained about some punters getting on large amounts and him not being allowed to. Using the logic you are sticking with in this thread,you would say brodie is jealous,hates,critical(your words), of fellow punters who get bigger bets accepted. Yet you know thats not true,brodie has never once criticised a fellow punter. You know he wouldn't do that because you know thats not what he thinks.You know hes criticising the tab/entain. Think about the inconsistency in how you've applied past logic compared to this thread. Anyway,as walt has said earlier, your posts are mostly seen as good.And even if they weren't,as long as your saying what you actually think then people just move on when the next thread starts,a bit like looking for the winner of the next race. I do get where your coming from when you ended the above post with brown nosing,arse licking,tosser,etc. Personally i thought that funny ,funny because you always try and be positive with your posts,but you've shown your frustration on this topic. Thats just my sense of humour. I do believe a lot of the people who post on here would actually be quite tough mentally,at least thats my impression,and thats just reflected in how they post. I'll give you an analogy of how i've come to view a bit of a yarn. Theres nothing nasty ,just if other posters think you lay on the wrong side of the ruck then your going to get raked over a little. None of this the ref blowing the whistle straight away like they do now days. I just think thats something people who stick around o here come to realise. It can be frustrating if you happen to be getting a bit a of rucking,but after maybe a few minutes in the blood bin,or in our case a few days off bit of a yarn,we get back out and go again.

i was too for a while. i also knew someone else who was and they got a few nice perks but was spending somewhere between 1.5-2 million per year for a couple of years. That was the tote figures and didn't include ff. Most of that was on nz harness. Not sure whether they are an elite customer anymore,but i know they don't spend much at all these days,directly a result of policies the tab implemented.Strange but true,but thats what the tab did. Actually i was talking to that person today and they happened to mention cambridge. They mentioned bgp which they are a fan of. When i mentioned the refund bgp got, their reaction was similar to what we have been saying.