the galah

i don't get the blair orange reference.not sure whether its got something to do with my having posted before a few times that i believe he is the gold standard for skill and always trying 100% of the time,when it comes to drivers. I always make up my own mind about things based on what i see. as to your other comments,we been over that before a few times,and i don't think currently,we're ever likely to convince the other, anymore than in the past. so,should i debate you this time on your other points. No,as to quote the great philosopher,lord edward blackadder the second,debating you would be like a broken pencil. pointless.

What a silly reply. I wonder about some of your replies to my comments sometimes. do you read what i say before you post. Just to remind you what i said. heres what i said.

I think your comments are fair enough if thats your interpretation .obviously you feel aquamans one sentence comment was unnecessary. Fair enough if thats what you think. Its just i didn't interpret aquamans comments as trying to " discredit any possible medical decisions" or comment in a negative way on his "medical condition",as you have said he had done. i just can't see how you get that from his one line response. I thought its obvious aquaman was referring to the link between having had a serious case of covid/or the covid vaccine and the increased risk of aneurysm. I do strongly agree with you,that its premature for anyone,whether it be media or social media to be inferring anything without knowing the facts. I mean,other media reports seem to be inferring its nothing to do with what aquaman has said. But reality is,when your high profile,the publics curiosity comes into play and you get such speculation.Thats just how things work. Maybe i shouldn't have commented on your reply to aquaman,as thats not what i want to be discussing either, but i just thought i would point out i thought aquaman said nothing negative about mr sugars and that I don't quite get why this thread went in that direction myself.

Its not surprising you would get someone commenting on cause of death,as after all,isn't that the first question everyone asked when they heard about the news of his death,given he was so young and active.. Maybe aquaman simpy read a media report, where a possible cause of death was given, and in his mind the topic he brought up may be something people should think about. I know i read one such report, where possible cause of death was given, and was thinking the same as aquaman. Having said that,i agree with you that public speculation about that aspect is somewhat premature,nor the best timing.But still,i cant see anything wrong with what aquaman has said, as this is a public forum and everyones perception of the point and scope of this thread, may vary. To most,the average punter,like myself,we never had any personal contact,nor were ever likely to. But we still felt we got to know him to a degree through seeing him on trackside.Whenever the punter had any money invested on one of his drives,they had full confidence that he would be doing his best for them, to achieve the best results,each and every time and we appreciated that. And that seemed to apply in any race wherever and whatever level applied.And all punters admired the level of skill and judgement of pace that he possessed.To most his death is a tragic occurence and we just move on with our memories and focus on our own lives ,but to many who seemingly knew him well,,it appears that sugars death will be something those people will be significantly impacted by.

I agree with you. I think its just illogical to suggest the all stars trainers have lost any of theiir skills. Mark purdon is still the person who most would call nz's best trainer. The fact that the all stars aren't currently dominating to the extent they once were,i would have thought made many realise that there was truth in what people like newmarket and i have been saying in the past. That is,part of the winning formula ,was access to treatments which enhanced performance,whicv others didn't have. you know people like chief can point to udr's and stakes and whatever,but chief will always defend them because its what he does.He would die on that hill before acknowledging what everyone can see.But even gammalite appears to be acknowledging the obvious and hes always been such a fan. I'm sure he still is. They are still the same great trainers. But it was always just rubbish ,when people like mick guerin or others would tell us,they are simply on a level that others will never reach. That was always a load of rubbish,the top trainers in nz are all capalle of achieving with the right horses. Mark purdon was the top of that group,and he should still be viewed that way. My theory as to the timing of the drop off in complete dominance has been it may have links with the new york cases and to some extent initially supply chains due to covid. . I say that because,as i started threads on beofre,a very high profile ownert of mark purdons,who used to use his media platform to attack jeff gural,was listed on the laist of clients of the vet who supplied all the performance enhnacers to the trainers. Why did jeff gural specifically leave his nameon the list of clients,when he redracted most. Also,his all stars highest level of dominance came when ms rasmussen was there,and i think her skill were a definite factor,but also she had contacts as well. The surprising thing i've noticed in the last year is rthere seems to be one stable that seems to be able to get horses from the likes of the all stars and improve their performances. Not just them ,also from another couple of leading stables.I can see why the owners who demanded success at all stars ,would be changing stables going by the results.

yes some good fields at auckland. It will be interesting how they drive marketplace. I suppose he tries to lead throughout. J dunn did outdrive c ferguson last week,although the draws make it harder for dunn this week.Punters who had been on marketplace when he got beaten 3 starts ago probably prefer seeing got the chocolates wins,but marketplace being a bettors delight and got the chocolates an art major,mean marketplace should suit the 2700 more.. I aslo though p ferguson was a very clever tactical drive last week. He knew john dunn would come of the inside ,and realising c ferguson seemed to be showing no interest in taking up the likely 1/1,so he placed himself there and gave dunn a better buffer from markerplace. The drive of the last month at auckland,was the ben hope drive on muscle mountain,when he opted to trail instead of leading. That tactical decision,which he must have oplanned pre race,would have come with a lot of mental pressure,knowing he could have coped a lot of critism if things had gone wrong. havuing said that,i do think its going to be very hard for muscle mountain to replicate winning tommorow night from the ur 10m.I'd like to see him win,but somehow i think it won't happen from his starting position,unless hiope can somehow work some more magic.

yes,i watched the box seat tonight. i'm not a regular viwer but might do so more and did think its content was good.These days they seem to be more in tune with what the average harness follower considers interesting and in the right doses.The presenters are all good and a good combination,even micky g's input.In my opinion.

I know it was just a low grade race at cambridge on a tuesday,but the north island stipes must know some people still watch and bet on those races and can see when a driver does something they shouldn't. Race 6 at cambridge,bonnie parker driven by k coppins broke on the first bend,then for the next 50m was driven in a way that totally confused the following drivers. Initially she angled it out,then no better go back in,then no better go out after all.Badly hampering the 2 trailing horses. Now i'm not saying the stipes need to be picking on anyone,but can't they at least apply the rules the same as they do in the south island. All the stipes had to do,to satisfy punters that they hadn't dozed off again was include in the stipes report that k coppins was spoken to for the manner in which she drove. The north island stipes must know a driver is supposed to take their horse clear of the field,or at the very least try and maintain its line. That horse was not hanging.It was steered out,then in,then out.,all within 50m. On 6 february,b ford,driving blinkin bones was fined $300 for failing to take his horse clear of the field when in a break. If you wacth the video,yes he was at fault,yes the penalty seemed fair even though he defended it,but no it was nowhere near a confusing drive as what we saw tonight. Some people get annoyed by standing starts,not me,my bug bear is the inconsistent application of the rules because they aren't doing their job and farly enforcing the rules,ensuring everyone is treated the same. Not one rule for some and another for others. Why do they treat people differently?

gammalite would be the expert on those,but i have seen lots of races run from the stands at albion park. But nearly every race i've seen run from a stand has horses starting off handicaps and 95% seem to be for trotters. So obviously queensland run so many for trotters from a stand,compared to their pacers, is because they realise they have to have handicap races to make them a more viable betting proposition.In other words if they ran those races as mobiles with the same horses,the ones off the front wouldn't have much chance. Same reason we have handicaps here .So they recognise as well that not all races can be run as mobiles. And queensland has a different routine when setting their stands. The horses turn in and face the right way,then they bring the tapes across the horses off marks.so the horses are standing still for a lot longer than even peter lamb used to. can you see the big fields at tracks like addington standing there that long? you have pointed to a routine that does work for that state.. The horses over there seem to get used to it and don't play up much. as gammalite pointed out one time,they even have horses side on off the ur when they say go. While that may help some begin,those horses generally always are disadvantaged in my opinon. I don't know why they allow that myself . queensland also often certainly have their share of breakers. Maybe thats a trotting thing for them. but would that work in new zealnad? I think no with the current crop of horses being so used to the current routine. But in the future,yes,but with the proviso that many nz trainers would have to educate their horses better and differently and that any new horse that qualified from a stand would have to prove it could do that.and that would take time to filter through. Maybe they could try it with the trotters first. Having said that ,my guess would be everyone would say,nah,what we had was better anyway..

doesn't matter whether they are walking or standing at the end of the day,what matters is all horses get a fair start. like i said earlier,peter lamb got so much criticism,because he tried to stick to the stand (not moving)starts. i remember too well with mr lamb,your horse stands there ,not moving for 2 minutes,then after 2 minutes of horses being pulled into postion,while others backed away,another plays up,another backs away,then though and behold he lets them go just when your horse thats stood there for 2 minutes perfectly, moves a wee bit one way,so is off balance and breaks and then you get made unruly.Thats why he got so much criticism. And races starting on time is very important with the cluttered racing coverage. The $ invested by australian punters is of such significance and they don't want to be having a bet on a race,only for that race to disappear off the trackside channel because they are a minute or two late.I mean have a bet at a meeting where that happens yourself,and you would soon give up betting on the rest of the races from there. I mean think about this,you could do the opposite of what some are suggesting ,in all races being mobiles,.Make all races stands and horses,drivers and trainers would all become more accustomed to all races being stands,would be trained better for them and the horses would adapt better to them. That would be better than this chopping and changing ,one start to the next. But that ain't going to happen either. i remember the days,,when jack mulcahy started the races. He was a very fair man. He wanted everyone to have a fair start and horses were better trained for satnds,because they had to be to get the best results. but those days are gone,horses just don't seem to be trained as well as they used to be to stand still then go.Maybe its a breeding thing to a degree,maybe its all the chopping and changing from stands to mobiles,but i really do think a lot is the way they are prepared and the time,or lack of,that goes into teaching a horse to stand and then begin. i mean obviously thats a factor as some trainers always have well mannered stand horses and others don't For example the telfers break an awful lot of stands. I guess they just don't focus on teaching that aspect as much as say some like peter davis or mark jones or de fillipi or whoever. So if you do think all races should be mobiles,what are you going to do with the races that are currently run as handicaps to provide a betting product without hot favorites. Its all well and good to point out an issue ,but you have to something better to change to. personally i think a lot comes down to the drivers. Watch sam ottley. Watch her routine most times in the preliminaries.. Punters just have to factor those things when they make an investment. They always have had to previously,i mean i understand as a punter its very frustrating sometimes to see your horse get a bad start,but is it really the starters fault each time?Sometimes for sure it is, but not as much as people make it out to be,in my opinion.

Were yesterdays starts really that bad? I've just watched them all again i couldn'r see much wrong with them. Everyone had a chance at a fair start to me? that major hipster is one switched on standing start horse. The horse,driver and trainer deserve credit for having it beginning so fast as soon as the tapes go.

Thats an important point. Another point is,when mr lamb was starter , he often tried holding them until everyone was standing and all that did was lead to more horses moving around and horses who had stood perfectly for a minute or two often ended up being disadvantaged,which really was unfair. people should remember that before being too critical of the current starter.Our current starter doesn't appear to favour any driver either. Fairness is important. Some drivers are more switched on to his routines,but thats not the starter favoriing anyone. Personally i have no issue with the standing starts continuing. i think the industry needs to keep providing both standing and mobile starts at all levels, as if you just run mobiles in the races that are currently run as handicap standing starts(with horses off marks)then you will get a lot more hot favorites,less turnover and realisticaaly mopres of much higher grade starting beside lowwer grade horses. There is no way to handicap in mobiles apart from prefgerential draws and in an 8 horse field a pbd means not much. So until someone comes up with a solution to that,then they will continue. Persobnally what i have a problem with is the 2 circle formation. I've never been a fan of it and its evolved into the starter not holding them long and the last horses to turn in,through no fault of theirs(just because they are drawn to be the last horse in the circle to turn in),are disadvantaged. Also i have a problem with the stips not reprimanding drivers who start too far back from the ur due to turning in too late or wanting a running start. If its good enough to reprimand them for being half a lngth behind in a mobile start,then how come 20-30 metres behind in a stand is consistently overlooked. Again i think they is partly due to the 2 circle formation also. as i've suggested previously,part of the solution is also in having less horses off the front line on tracks like addington. And also i would point out,while all drivers are trying to get the best start possible,some are simp[ly much better at it than others. For example i watched a horse win a non win trot at winton a couple of weeks ago.Initially i thought there may be an inquiry because the driver,nathan williamson had his horse btween 5-20 metres in front of all the other horses off the ur. And he didn't draw the inside ur. But after watching the replay it was obvious,he simply was mopre switched on than the other drivers and got his horse into postion quicker .

he may have got an advantage,but his first couple of stride,where he paced are where his quick forward momentum started,and he only galloped,for 3 or 4 strides we've all seen many horses start off in a gallop and gain an adavantage before the driver has a chance to react and restrain the horse. Drivers can't be mind readers and their is a split second reaction time before that restrain that is reasonable. in my opinion,i'm surprised the inquiry proceeded. I mean,if they put major hipster out,then that would set a precedent that would see endless inquiries ,as they would have to look at every breaker who may gain a slight advantage in the first 30m when breaking and every trotter that gallops late in a race for 3 or 4 strides and doesn't immediately lose ground .It would be a whole can of worms that would cause everyone,including opunters,many headaches and claims of inconsistencies.

yes,she is the best. but the judicial panel who made the decision to dismiss the charges failed to uphold the reasonable expectations of the punters who invested on that race. Its not that big a deal,but i do feel the whole thing illustrated those involved took for granted punters participation on amateur races.So i won't be participating again.thats just me.

i've just been through the top 200 trainers in nz ,and from my knowledge every one is european apart from luk chin(asain) and i think phil williamson(pacific island?). it would be the same with the drivers. I think monika ranger and t hanara have pacific island families,but they would be about the only 2 i could name. thats not a negative or positive,its just reality. i think we should run HRNZ brodie. As we seem to have more grasp of reality and how those realities impact the sport currently and in the future.lol

i agree. you know, you've just made a very important point. Its a point,which you can see clearly,i can see clearly,but just slips through to the keeper for so many. I'm sure for many of those in charge at hrnz,they don't get it and i've even read on this forum ,someone who says they live in auckland,refer to asains in auckland,as if their ethnicity somehow is a postive for harness racing. I've known many dozens of asain gamblers,but the ones i've known gamble on the pokies and particularly at the casino's(that is the better off ones prefer the casino's)And the younger ones prefer those types of gambling on line. I mean,as i've posted before,go to a harness race meeting,look around you. Go to a local tab,look around you. people of european and maori ethnicity are those who make up the bulk of harness racing customers. Its not only asains who gamble in low numbers on harness racing,its pacific peoples,middle eastern people,african nations. looking at the stats,a couple of years ago,31% of aucklanders were asain,17% pacific people and 3% middle eatern,latin american and african. So thats half of aucklands population that have ethnicity that is very unlikely to ever be involved in harness racing.

actually i just mentioned that on another thread. Ben hope got it wrong and started much wider than he should have and gave those outside him lilttle room to take up their positions. He accepted he was in the wrong and got a $400 fine. Have a look at the huge gap between the horse on u1 and the b hope horse that drew u2. And see how that lead to the congestion outside mr hope as a result.

3 more late scratchings yesterday. No room for tk megatsr to fit into its place on the front line. Mind you the other 2 were a result of b hope starting about 5 horses wider on the unruly than the horse that drew inside him.That was a bit odd.. he got a $400 fine. Do horses late scratched still get the appearance money and still drop back in the rating system if late scratched?

The powers that be keep telling us popualtion base is a reason why they consider auckland of such significance. Yet all the trends indicate as auckland has grown ,harness racing has declined in that region. In other words i think its just another example of flawed thinking that exists at industry leadership level. As i've said before,many of the indicators are urban sprawl has a negative impact on harness racing particpation in those areas. I mean,you don;t have to be einstein to realise that the cost of land and housing is so prohibitive for anyone wanting to have or set up even a small scale training establishment .Only the rich,the already established or those with close family connections are the ones left in the sport in those areas. And of course,as for auckland, many of those left use the training facilties that they are going to old.. Its a joke to think new participants will come along in enough numbers to maintain even the attrition levels in harness racing in auckland. The same problem is slowly evolving in canterbury. for example,in canterbury,there was a time when the best thing for people involved in harness racing,was they were established in areas whcih they kinew ,in years to come, the land would eventually become such a valuable asset. duetro urban sprawl.That applied to all level of trainers occupying properiteis on the outskirts of christchurch. Problem is now,land values,even in areas like canterbury have made it very prohibitive to even get a foot in the door.so its inevitable that the industry will decline there as well. Thats why i started a thread a year or so ago, suggesting HRNZ invest the money they got from the forbury sale,in an establishment in the area which still has significant particpation . canterbury. An establishment that would cater for all aspects of those involved in the industry. A possible stepping stone for some,a possible place to go as others dowbn scale,,but also very importantly an investment in a strategic area where,if neccessary in 20 0r 30 years to come,they could cash up at a huge profit and start the cycle of doing it all again and keeping harness racing going. Thats what they should be looking at doing with auckland,not some other plan,like they currently have, where they erode their asset base to a point where they can't. But,seems no one thinks like that anymore, Everyones about looking after special interest groups andonly looking a couple of years ahead.

Would the auckland meeting have goten any sky coverage in australia. Being a postponed meeting i kind of doubt they would have made any time available on their packed saturday racing channels.

Well how about that. The charge against c negus was dismissed. This is a forum where we give opinions. Well in my opinion,that decision is as farcical as the race. The moral of the story for me,is never ever bet on amateur races again. Personally i think i've probably bet on 95% of amateur races ever run.Well that will never happen again,i promise you. So heres the reality. They gave c negus a lengthy holiday about a year ago when she was trying her best,because they say she persevered for the lead too long. Now,when any fool could see in this weeks race,she should have made an earlier move to take up a handier position on a snails pace. Turns out thats an acceptable drive.. Try too hard and your suspended,don't try and your not.(same driver each time). What an upside down world those that made those deciosns live in.

The thing about all those changes,is once you lose your audience you won't get them back. recognition of achievemnents from your peers,most of whom may not have been ardent racing fans,but were aware the sport you were participating in was significant in nz culture,used to be a rewarding part of the package that was delivered when you had success. everyone who used to get a win knew people they knew or were related to, could have listened on the radio,read about it in the paper and seen it on free to air tv. within a few years, a couple of decades ago,that all disappeared. Strangely often driven by tab leadership decisions whose only focus seemed to be the bottom line. If your going to make decisions based on profit and loss,and a significant factor in that is turnover,then shouldn't you factor in what drives turnover.. I've used the example of pub tab's previously .Many of whom used to provide excellent service and coverage of racing. The tab's decision to reduce the % of their take from turnover,was met with dismay and anger from pub tab operators around the country.Many media articles were written illustrating that.They felt they were just being taken for granted and expected to provide a service and pay wages while getting very little in return. I can tell you,in the area where i lived ,when the melbourne cup and nz trotting cup were run in november,they were very big days at the two main tab's/pubs. The pubs really promoted them and the pub's were packed and the people dressed up and were still going home after midnight. then,not only was media coverage and exposure in radio and tv and the print media being reduced,the tab cut the %,so the pub's ,i guess partly also as a show of defiance simply put no resources into promoting those days. Within 2-3 years the numbers attending were reduced by 3/4 and people were home by 7p.m. and the gambling that used to go on for hours diminished. but it wasn't just those days that it impacted,it also was eroding racing from the psyche of new zealanders. I've always said,people badly underestimate the value of maintaining racing in the psyche of the nz public and they still do.But,hey,no one can ever put a definitive $ amount on that, so no one will ever be able to quantify the significance of it and thus no one implements policies that reverse something that they don't realsie is of such significance. anyways,what i do know for sdure is if i have a bet and i'm somewhere,i know can't listen to it on the car radio as i drive,the wife puts it on her phone but its often freezing anyway. So really i mostly don't bother betting until i get home. and from my experirience of going to pub tab's in tha last year or so,those with a terminal have no one to serve you as they just seem occupied cleaning or gazing into space around the corner,so i gave up going there. They didn't even have the fields up for the nz meeting on their wall and a tv that only showed one race at a time from that nz meeting. so i decided to use the local pub with the machine and wasn't sure about how to fill in one form so asked the lady behind the pub(i was the only one in the pub at that time),she said she didn't know but got her supervisor who said,don't ask me i don't gamble. you know i went back into that pub tab for the first time last week to deposit some money in an account. It took about 3 minutes to deposit 4 notes as it kept rejecting a couple of the notes. eventually it accepted them. The tab clearly have had no interest in providing good service for many years now and there vision is to get as many on line as possible.

i remember ,as a kid.my father listening to the radio to hear the them read out the fields for the 2nd day at oamaru,i think it was maybe labour day,although may be wrong. Anyway,at 10 o'clock on the radio station they read out the horses names in each race,in order of barrier draws. thats when they had ballots. Talking about radio coverage,personally i think one of the dumbest things,amopngst many,was the decision to discontinue having a racing show on the radio.if they wanted to cut cost,why didn't they just put the trackside coverage on and have someone making sure the races,whenevr they were from got played. and when no races on just play the interviews that they used to do. ir was a bit like getting rid of free trackside tv. As i've said before,people massively underestimated the number of people who used to watch racing,who put small bets on or didn't bet. i remebr when trackside when pay to view,i had dozens of people telling me how they were disappointed they would no longer get to see trackside. Thse were people,often elderly or those with lower incomes,who watched racing. Mind you,back then there wasn't the wall to wall racing coverage and people followed racing because they genuinely liked to see those involved,and the pre race interviews.Most of those people had partners who they watched it with and families who would go around and visit and watch the races with them.. It wasn't until free to air trackside went,that i found out so many people knew the horses we had and fmade a point of following them,simply because they knew us.And of course when they got rid of trackside you couldn't get a motel or hotel with it. I remember drivibng around dunedin with the wife,going to 6 different motels,thinking iwe would watch the friday nights races,but none of them had trackside coverage and just ended up just giving up on that. so many of the reasons for the decline of racing have been short sighted own goals.

yes ,that always happens when they are run in those timeslots near ther end of the working day. like you said,it would be people in pubs,people home from work,with the australian $ invested significantly impacting turnovers around that time. Most likely that last race also got some ok lead in sky coverag as well. another factor with that last race was there was a false start and the race was delayed. Whenever that happens and its in a good time slot to start with,the pools always increase.The tabcorp win pool on the last race was $11,000.more than double any other ace.And 5 times more than the early races for them. from my observations,a part of that increase has to be a lot of people,most likely in australia,betting on what they think is the next race to go. About a year ago i gave the example of how a win pool for a race at the gore trots run in the right time slot,got to just under $20,000 after being delayed for close to half an hour,but it continued to pop up as the next race to go every 10 minutes or so.. it just goes to show who's really betting. Only problem with those delayed races is they sometimes won't get shown on aussie tv so people over there wouldn't be too impreesed they had bet on a race from nz that they may not even get to see sometimes..

more TV one rubbish on tonight about the trump adminsitration. I just watched it,rewound it and thought,why can't they just report the facts. At one point it said about those deported to el salvador..."have disapperared into a legal black hole,with little evidence for their gang member status".. well ,even the mainsteam usa media who don't like trump ,have come to realise they are on a loser running stories about that angle,as even they realise they can't hide they were mostly deported due to the seriousness of the crimes commited. yet tv one ragain run a segment where they tell only some of the facts. had tv one just stuck to the story that a judge has said some didn't get their due process of an immigration hearing before deportation,then that is true. Actually,the case the media has been using to highlight how someone innocent has been deported ,has been imploding in the last 24 hours. It was all over the left leaning meida in the usa, that a loving family man, was ajn example of someone who shouldn't have been deported. They even had a democrat senator fly to el salvador today and demand the el salvador government release that person . but thats all turned to custard now,as the trump administration have released all the dretails of the mans interactions with authorities. Including drug dealing,wife beating and the fact he had 2 usa immigration court hearings that had previously ruled he was part of a ms13 gang and was deported,only to reenteer illegally again. Also why didn'ttv one mention that the people deported,like the bloke mentioned,if they returned will virtually be certain to get an immediate immigration hearing and be immediately repturned back to el salvador. you know,i find it bizzare that nz news media,especially tv one, still think people can't think for themselves.Mind you look at how they helped fool everyone about the covid shot i suppose. how about they run some segments about what the latest research is finding no,.That will never happen.