mounga

[the galah]

1 hour ago, mikeynz said:

OK, so many qualifying races with different points, why not just run certain number of qualifiers with winners automatic entry, at least in those races they would be trying.

But then you would get the likes of mounga winning an early race and just being driven like at westport so not to get rehandicapped for the big final.

[the galah]

Good old mounga.

You would have to say hes been well trained and well driven lately.Certainly wanting to win the more prestigious country cup races hes run in lately.

As walt and i said when this original thread was started,hes really just living up to what we knew he could do if they wanted,which was why we felt aggrieved with westpeot.

But thats all in the past now. Well done to mounga. on to the final.

will the cunningplan come off. It may well do going on today.

Only thing about winning today was he goes back another 10m by the looks of it.

Edited April 28 by the galah

[Newmarket]

1 minute ago, the galah said:

Good old mounga.

You would have to say hes been well trained and well driven lately.

As walt and i said when this original thread was started,he really just living up to the hype we put on him,which was why we felt aggrieved with westpeot.

But thats all in the past now. Well done to mounga. on to the final.

will the cunningplan come off. It may well do going on today.

Only thing about winning today was he goes back another 10m by the looks of it.

Well done….

Won really well. Surprised they keep starting Lester, needs a long rest then ready for grass in spring. 

[Gammalite]

36 minutes ago, the galah said:

But thats all in the past now. Well done to mounga. on to the final.

well done sticking with this horse. A good field defeated today , with Not just Dunns to beat like he had to do at the West Coast. He beat some Addington Allstars and Telfer handy runners too. 

So Mo'unga might turn in to an Addington horse himself? going great guns !👍

[the galah]

6 hours ago, Gammalite said:

well done sticking with this horse. A good field defeated today , with Not just Dunns to beat like he had to do at the West Coast. He beat some Addington Allstars and Telfer handy runners too. 

So Mo'unga might turn in to an Addington horse himself? going great guns !👍

Hindsight a great thing but can't say i'm over clever in this case,as he had won his 4th race from only 7 starts on 1/9/2023 at addington,winning easily with Bach,The falcon,Deceptive lee and Alta Meteor the next 4 home.

From a betting perspective, i haven't invested on him since westport .Just a personal choice not to support him due to previous loss of confidence in intent. But good luck to the punters that have stuck with him.

 

[Walt]

10 hours ago, the galah said:

Hindsight a great thing but can't say i'm over clever in this case,as he had won his 4th race from only 7 starts on 1/9/2023 at addington,winning easily with Bach,The falcon,Deceptive lee and Alta Meteor the next 4 home.

From a betting perspective, i haven't invested on him since westport .Just a personal choice not to support him due to previous loss of confidence in intent. But good luck to the punters that have stuck with him.

 

I acknowledge that race fitness is hugely important and is sought after when you intend going after multiple targets during a campaign. I also acknowledge that horse management is vitally important. Busting a gut first up makes no sense and that aspect should be factored in when considering your wager. Having said that, the punters dollar is worth the exact same amount in the Westport Cup as it is in the NZ Cup or any other race. 

I have no issue whatsoever with the connections looking after Mo'unga first up at Westport but context is important. 

Mo'unga was in the eyes of many the best horse in the Westport Cup. He had race options available a lot closer to home so punters would have assumed the connections felt he was ready to rock and roll in the Westport Cup. That's where a big part of the issue here raises it's head. What many punters believe ready to rock and roll means is open to interpretation. 

The connections will have known the horse would start fav in the Westport Cup. Punters wagered their dosh in good faith but the horse was never put into the race despite him clearly going well. By the time Robbie moved he had a 0% chance of winning the race. It was that blatant which is what irks me most. The amount of ground he made up when actually asked for an effort told a compelling story. 

The fact a question was not asked by the Stewards is appalling in my opinion. Gifting free passes for what was obviously a contrived race plan only ensures such contempt for punters continues. It removes confidence to wager and that stewards have your back.

I punt most weeks but put my cue back in the rack after the Westport Cup. As I stated previously, had I made the trip to Westport I would have walked off the course in disgust after Mo'unga's performance. The irony there is I would have walked off the track feeling filthy where as the connections would have been smiling for a job well done. 

What he's done since and the way he's done it against some nice horses only underlines what unfolded at Westport and how questions should have been asked.  

[TAB For Ever]

Mounga was a slow developer and had a few issues , but now making up for it. 

His dam of course from Rugby home  and was a multiple Group winner and he cost over $100k at Sales.

His owners are very high profile ,successful and love winning races.

And I can tell you he was well punted on the Coast , being win favourite both times .

If half as good as his mum he will be a handy horse .

[the galah]

9 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

 

And I can tell you he was well punted on the Coast , being win favourite both times .

 

Without wishing to go over it again.

But your memory not that good as he was a significant drifter on the ff at westport. 

The reason he opened up so short would have been because of his prior form.

Just as the reason he was well punted again on the 2nd day,where he was again driven to have little winning chance,was because he finished so fast at westport.

Also some have suggested on here that they were told pre race,that the horse was not there to win.

So you can brush over it as much as you like,but the horses connections are not seen in the same light as you imply by many as releates to the horses west coast runs.

Nothing that has happened since westport  will undo what happened there in many peoples eyes. Those type of things will be remembered by many much longer than any wins he has had since. 

Edited April 29 by the galah

[TAB For Ever]

Mo'unga would not be the first good horse to take a while getting used to grass track racing.

Especially when he settles well back and someone like John Dunn or SOttley out in front controlling the pace and running 58 for last 800 on grass and he caught 10-12 lengths back in running.

At Rangiora the pace was on all way..3.10 secs a good time and he got a good drag up behind a handy horse when the leaders throwing out distress signals. Still improving . Didn't race till he was 4 yr old.

His owners love winning   !

[the galah]

8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

Mo'unga would not be the first good horse to take a while getting used to grass track racing.

Especially when he settles well back and someone like John Dunn or SOttley out in front controlling the pace and running 58 for last 800 on grass and he caught 10-12 lengths back in running.

At Rangiora the pace was on all way..3.10 secs a good time and he got a good drag up behind a handy horse when the leaders throwing out distress signals. Still improving . Didn't race till he was 4 yr old.

His owners love winning   !

I'm sure his owners love wining.

Just as i'm sure his trainer/driver love winning.

Punters accpet that not every horse goes into a race with a realistic winning chance and accept that horses have races that often ,with  some good horses,they are being aimed at bigger races down the track.

Punters aren't mugs.

Obviously there can be many logical reasons why a horse is driven a certain way in any race,and punters understand that and accept that. Sure,some may get a little frustrated when they don't get the ideal run,but no doubt the horse and driver feel the same way and thats just part of racing and gambling.

But,theres a difference in that and in going out there with a pre conceived plan not to win.

thats where you lose the punters confidence in the product and once you sow the seed of doubt,its there for some time.This was one of those rare occasions.

This topic has just been pointing that out.

surely people don't expect punters to sit there and see something they think is dodgy and just say nothing.This discussion around this topic just reflects what would ahve happened with people who saw that race,where ever they were.

[Walt]

9 hours ago, the galah said:

Without wishing to go over it again.

But your memory not that good as he was a significant drifter on the ff at westport. 

The reason he opened up so short would have been because of his prior form.

Just as the reason he was well punted again on the 2nd day,where he was again driven to have little winning chance,was because he finished so fast at westport.

Also some have suggested on here that they were told pre race,that the horse was not there to win.

So you can brush over it as much as you like,but the horses connections are not seen in the same light as you imply by many as releates to the horses west coast runs.

Nothing that has happened since westport  will undo what happened there in many peoples eyes. Those type of things will be remembered by many much longer than any wins he has had since. 

100% Galah

After a few decades of punting you get to understand the relevance of a significant drifter in the betting. The early money was almost certainly the result of all those punters that know his ability, assumed it's the Westport Cup so he'll be nailed down and wouldn't travel distance just for a run....and it being a very winnable race for him. 

Those punters getting in early is to beat the expected dropping in his price as the race nears. When a genuine contender gets the blows late it almost always matches it's race day performance. Hard to quantify how meaningful that is but I'd say only one out of every 40 runners wins after meaningfully drifting in the market 30 minutes prior to race start. If you watch every race on Trackside today you'll very rarely hear the caller say the horse won despite a betting drift. It's almost like rocking horse poo   

$12 to $15 is no biggie. $5 to $8 is a much bigger deal. $2.80 to $4.60 has red lights flashing....Don't touch, not today.

As I stated in my first post in this thread, I received a call from a long time mate who is a well known harness man in North Canterbury. We ended up talking talking about the Westport Cup about 45 minutes before the race kicked off. I told him I had wagered on Mo'unga who looked a good thing. He said your ticket is worthless. It's a not today job. He was 100% right as he almost always is. When Mo'unga got the blows I knew it was game over before the race even started. I just didn't expect it to be so far king blatant. I don't know what it takes to haul someone's arse into the room if what unfolded there didn't even warrant questions being asked and a reminder of obligations put firmly on the table. Instead, it was a "FREE PASS', enjoy your day.

As for the comments the TAB cheerleader has made. Yes, the connections enjoy winning. Who doesn't? Like most people they won't like wasting their dosh wagering on a horse that was never there to win the Westport Cup.

As for the grass track element. It's akin to horses in Canterbury preparing to race in Auckland and vice versa. They practice going the opposite direction in trackwork.

Mo'unga wouldn't have traveled that distance with no knowledge of how he'd handle grass. The grass is almost always less of an issue for horses that do a lot of beach work.

Fact is Mo'unga to my eye never looked anything other than comfortable on the Westport grass. His run home was the most impressive of the day confirming he was like a duck to water. 

[the galah]

Yes, the being unproven on a grass track thing that tab mentioned ,wasn't really relevant .

Mounga won its first race start easily on the grass.It also won a workout on the grass a month prior to westport.

Also it would have been fit enough as it had trialed well at the workouts and trials 3 times in the previous month to westport.

 

[the galah]

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

Yes, the being unproven on a grass track thing that tab mentioned ,wasn't really relevant .

Mounga won its first race start easily on the grass.It also won a workout on the grass a month prior to westport.

Also it would have been fit enough as it had trialed well at the workouts and trials 3 times in the previous month to westport.

 

Actually when you think about it,if the todd stable had any consideration for the punters,all they had to do was notify the stewards of the tactics they would be using,that way punters could have been notified. The likes of mark jones has done that before and i don't know why others don't.

Its like these drivers that carry a whip then complain when the stewards pick on them for showing no vigour at all in a finish. If they have no intention of using the whip,why do they carry it.And why don't they notify stewards pre race that the horse is very risky when pressured in a finish. That way they cover their own arses and punters are informed .

Edited April 30 by the galah

[the galah]

On 28/04/2024 at 3:26 PM, the galah said:

 

Only thing about winning today was he goes back another 10m by the looks of it.

So what do horses that win get in rating penalties these days.

The conditions of the country cup hasn't changed,so what did mounga get rehandicapped after its last start win.

Mounga has had 15 start for 7 wins,2 3rds,2 4ths and 4 unplaced.

of the 7 wins,mounga will have been rehandicapped for 6 wins as 1 was penalty free.

then it would have dropped 1 point for each of its unplaced runs. No ratings change for the 3rds and 4ths. 

so in effect it started off on r 50,then assuming its been re rated even a discounted 6  points for its wins(most get 7 or 8 points) then that means 50 plus 36 =86 -4 (umplaced) +82.

so how does it end up rated only 79 ,thus allowing it to start off only 10m in the country cups final.

Its hard to find a similar horse to compare it to, as the ratings system is so utterly messed up that horses who win early in their careers don't seem to stay around much anymore and who can blame them.

But the closest example i could find was the south island trotter Moment of what. Its had 8 starts for 2 wins,2 2nds,2 4ths and 2 unplaced. Going by its current rating,it must have been given 8 penalty points for its latest win. as its r56. 8 points,clearly more than what mounga gets given for his wins..

To me moungas rating seems to have a bad odour to it.

The whole ratings system is driving people out of the sport,and this appears to an example of an inconsistent application of the ratings penalties.

If anyone can explain how mounga hasn't been treated as others are,then please inform me.Has this horse not been given preferantial treatment?

Harness racing has a lot of issues of its own making and the inconsistent policies of the handicappers appear one of them. Is it who you know that the handicappers factor in?

Edited May 7 by the galah

[Nowornever]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

So what do horses that win get in rating penalties these days.

The conditions of the country cup hasn't changed,so what did mounga get rehandicapped after its last start win.

Mounga has had 15 start for 7 wins,2 3rds,2 4ths and 4 unplaced.

of the 7 wins,mounga will have been rehandicapped for 6 wins as 1 was penalty free.

then it would have dropped 1 point for each of its unplaced runs. No ratings change for the 3rds and 4ths. 

so in effect it started off on r 50,then assuming its been re rated even a discounted 6  points for its wins(most get 7 or 8 points) then that means 50 plus 36 =86 -4 (umplaced) +82.

so how does it end up rated only 79 ,thus allowing it to start off only 10m in the country cups final.

Its hard to find a similar horse to compare it to, as the ratings system is so utterly messed up that horses who win early in their careers don't seem to stay around much anymore and who can blame them.

But the closest example i could find was the south island trotter Moment of what. Its had 8 starts for 2 wins,2 2nds,2 4ths and 2 unplaced. Going by its current rating,it must have been given 8 penalty points for its latest win. as its r56. * points,clearly more than what mounga gets given for his wins..

Compare that to what mounga has been given and others are given when winningh.

To me moungas rating seems to have a bad odour to it.

The whole ratings system is driving people out of the sport,and tyhis appears to an example of an inconsistyent application of the ratings penalties.

If anyone can explain how mounga hasn't been treated as others are,then plase inform me. Is this horse not been given preferantial treatment.

Harness racing has a lot of issues of its own making and the inconsistent policies of the handicappers appear one of them. Is it who you know that the handicappers factor in?.

The ratings system is not fit for purpose with the number of horses we have available.

[the galah]

2 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

The ratings system is not fit for purpose with the number of horses we have available.

yes the ratings sysyem is a complete joke in how harshly non win horses are rated.

But how can the handicappers possibly justify the inconsistent treatment they give horses that win.

A 2 win trotter getting penalised 8 points,other 1 win horses sometimes 7 or 8,then well perfformed horses like mounga only 6. It would be a fairer system if they just picked the numbers out of a hat. 

[TAB For Ever]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:59 PM, the galah said:

yes the ratings sysyem is a complete joke in how harshly non win horses are rated.

But how can the handicappers possibly justify the inconsistent treatment they give horses that win.

A 2 win trotter getting penalised 8 points,other 1 win horses sometimes 7 or 8,then well perfformed horses like mounga only 6. It would be a fairer system if they just picked the numbers out of a hat. 

What size should the hat be....a big hat would hold a lot more numbers than a very small hat ?

Seriously though ....in view of the relative performances and form of the horses around him the handicap seems pretty fair...about dead right !

Had he received 1 x more point he would be quite harshly treated starting alongside Franco Indie .

[the galah]

1 hour ago, TAB For Ever said:

What size should the hat be....a big hat would hold a lot more numbers than a very small hat ?

Seriously though ....in view of the relative performances and form of the horses around him the handicap seems pretty fair...about dead right !

Had he received 1 x more point he would be quite harshly treated starting alongside Franco Indie .

what i find confusing is how the handicapper gives some horses more rating points for wins than others .

Mounga is an example of a horse receiving winning rating penalties  at the lower end.

consistency builds trust in the system.

Handicappers discretion applied inconsistently doesn't. 

Edited May 8 by the galah

[Gammalite]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:39 PM, the galah said:

what i find confusing is how the handicapper gives some horses more rating points for wins than others .

Mounga is an example of a horse receiving winning rating penalties  at the lower end.

consistency builds trust in the system.

Handicappers discretion applied inconsistently doesn't. 

Mo'unga has his big championship soon. Only $3.00 to win in big field. BOAY's favourite horse might carry the day still though. best of luck to him. The Dunn TRIO will try and pull some sort of swiftie (hopefully 😎) makes for some great racing !!!

Hey what about HEISENBERG tonight in race 4? An Open Class horse who's had near 100 Addington runs against a field of Wannabe's ?? I couldn't work out the handicapping for that. some real loose class ones in that. Quite happy to take the 6-1 on offer though 😁💰. he normally raced Way way  better horses than those tonight. 

[Gammalite]

23 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Mo'unga has his big championship soon. Only $3.00 to win in big field. BOAY's favourite horse might carry the day still though. best of luck to him. The Dunn TRIO will try and pull some sort of swiftie (hopefully 😎) makes for some great racing !!!

Love those 2 mile races. NZ harness at it's best. 5 horses ahead of the BOAY champ Mo'unga at the finish unfortunately. The 3 Dunns and 2 Telfers.

The big stables strike gold again. Pretty hard to beat that fantastic team driving. Thought Dalton had that too, but beautiful drive John Dunn (yet again smooth as James Bond ) with his well timed run . 

The 'Diamonds' are Forever !!! 😅

[Shad]

The favourite a bit disappointing one must say, seemed to have his chance did meet a very good field all the same,

[mikeynz]

The interesting thing I noted with the country cup was despite there being lots on the points table, only 14  nominated for the final and started, no emergencys., it stated that you had to nominate as normal, seems lots mustn't have bothered.

[Gammalite]

On 4/28/2024 at 1:26 PM, the galah said:

Good old mounga.

You would have to say hes been well trained and well driven lately.Certainly wanting to win the more prestigious country cup races hes run in lately.

Well the Big Boy is Back .

What a great thread this was. Plenty of debate about driving tactics in the Autumn . great stuff !😂 (geez I hope Walt is ok , was in I'll health there for a while. Hope he got to see today's win)

Mo'unga becoming a Spring star and shifting from the  'fiddleful ' West Coast racing to the Big Win today on the more Prestigious East Coast of the Island instead.😉

Now a timeless KAIKOURA Cup winner. A group 2 race by 4 lengths. The BOAY champ Mo strikes again !🏆💰