Chief Stipe Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 There has been again some debate about the difference weight makes to a horses chances. An old chestnut! I don't believe 2 to 4 kg makes a difference. Plus our handicap weights are so compressed that they are not true handicaps. Throw in the Max and minimum limits and well weight would only stop a severely underpowered train. That said what is wrong with Weight For Age (WFA) where fixed weights are allocated on the basis of age and sex? For example today we see James Cummings make a statement that Cylinder is not as advantaged as Imperatriz at WFA. Yet Cylinder has 56kg and Imperatriz has 56.5kg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Class will overcome but yes at some point that extra kilo will be too much in the last 100m. Compressed weights, e.g. max 58, min 54 play a big part as does SWP in making handicapping almost irrelevant at present. Tauranga's main race tomorrow has a 3kg spread for 14 horses, yet a 20 point rating spread, 78 - 98. NZTR have to date refused to address the serious problems with Calendar/pattern, grades and handicapping. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 A very senor old school trainer, once told me that he thought that each horse finds a weight where it doesn't stretch out to it best advantage. He was a master at placing them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Wingman said: Class will overcome but yes at some point that extra kilo will be too much in the last 100m. Compressed weights, e.g. max 58, min 54 play a big part as does SWP in making handicapping almost irrelevant at present. Tauranga's main race tomorrow has a 3kg spread for 14 horses, yet a 20 point rating spread, 78 - 98. NZTR have to date refused to address the serious problems with Calendar/pattern, grades and handicapping. My old boss told me, don't run from outside gates, and if you get weight =claim........simple really, he did win 10 premierships with that mantra. Don Scott the absolute benchmark for punters swore weight stops trains, his theories were adopted by a generation of punters, many made their living by adapting their selections to Don's weight table, penalties and allowances... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 3 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: My old boss told me, don't run from outside gates, and if you get weight =claim........simple really, he did win 10 premierships with that mantra. Don Scott the absolute benchmark for punters swore weight stops trains, his theories were adopted by a generation of punters, many made their living by adapting their selections to Don's weight table, penalties and allowances... Yes but how many years ago was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Yes but how many years ago was that? And what was the weight spread in handicaps then in Australasia? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Only an idiot would suggest weight would stop a train-it surely depends on whether it is going uphill or downhill The original saying was weight will stop a train but not a 2yo Years ago the MC had a minimum of 6 stone--58kgs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 48 minutes ago, nod said: Only an idiot would suggest weight would stop a train-it surely depends on whether it is going uphill or downhill The original saying was weight will stop a train but not a 2yo Years ago the MC had a minimum of 6 stone--58kgs I thought 6 stone was 38kgs? 58kgs is 9 stone Edited March 22 by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I do not mind we/us being polar opposites but I do object to when one has a firm opinion that because it is not 'your' opinion suddenly those that you disagree with are idiots. That weight will stop a train is just one of racings hundreds of clichés. Correcting us for not including the words 'not a 2yo' REALLY! Joe Bloggs comments are on the money and speaking of which I made a lot more on the punt when we had true handicaps because only a select few could ever carry weight 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Yes but how many years ago was that? Well we had Zedative at the time, the weight scale in VIC now is a disgrace, but in theory the boss was/is right, he used to say we should have WFA or set weight maidens too, 10 years before they eventuated, very clever man AAA, died almost a billionaire, loved a punt, lived for it, loved nothing more than to see a bookmaker cry.......did that often. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Interesting topic, opposite opinions, but each as merit IMO. The compressed scale we deal with now, both here and in Aus, makes real handicapping a thing of the past. Curious will have stats, no doubt, but it is plain that now, topweights win frequently, far more often than they should under an accurate handicapping regime. In those former days weight definitely played a big part - affecting some more than others, obviously - but now, the differential is so slight as to be of very little significance to most. IMO. In the same era as Zeditave - quoted by J.B - I had two smallish geldings in work. One won four in his first racing season, and looked to be more than useful. The other won a couple over the next couple of years, but struggled in the old C 3 classification under top weights. In frustration I tossed him into Open class, in on the minimum and he immediately found form. He placed in the Hazlett Stakes - then 1400m - and then ran 3rd in the 2000m Easter Classic, and won the 2400m Great Autumn. He could cope with the classier animals just fine, but clearly, struggled with weight. The other bloke, small as he was, ran successfully in highweights, handled the impost despite his small frame, but couldn't cop the step up in class. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 12 hours ago, curious said: I thought 6 stone was 38kgs? 58kgs is 9 stone I was going to cheat at the scales 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Looking at racing nowadays, with the poor standard of new riders starting out I would suggest weight makes little difference. Yeah, so you might get 4 kilo claim, but then you find the chimp 3 wide the trip, or settles last in a sprint home, so weight hardly an issue, just poor riders coming thru the ranks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 23 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Looking at racing nowadays, with the poor standard of new riders starting out I would suggest weight makes little difference. Yeah, so you might get 4 kilo claim, but then you find the chimp 3 wide the trip, or settles last in a sprint home, so weight hardly an issue, just poor riders coming thru the ranks. Is there necessarily something wrong with being 3 wide the trip? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Well summed up Freda. I notice the last four runnings of the Melbourne cup the winners all carried high end weights, specifically 55.5, 57, 57.5 and 56.5 so even this once great handicap race is being effected 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomed Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 51 minutes ago, curious said: Is there necessarily something wrong with being 3 wide the trip? Usually. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, curious said: Is there necessarily something wrong with being 3 wide the trip? Luckily you’re not a jockey. I know if track is bad some may stay wide in better going with some success, but in most races if your 3 wide your not gonna pay a Div. Have a look at some racing from Riccarton today, yes I know a few senior jockeys ride well, but others only get a ride coz nobody else is available. Far cry from years gone by Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Maybe the class of top weights these day, is not a patch on the past, most open class races you would have to describe as a glorified hack races, these days, the class is no longer. Looking at our cups races and see how many shouldn't get a start, but that's all that's available to fill the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 6 hours ago, Doomed said: Usually. Didn't seem to bother Opie just now. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 8 minutes ago, curious said: Didn't seem to bother Opie just now. Well come on, let’s be honest. The horse was clearly better than the rest, otherwise it would have been beaten after that run… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Well come on, let’s be honest. The horse was clearly better than the rest, otherwise it would have been beaten after that run… Exactly. So, why worry about it when the best horse wins anyway? Don't think the run had anything to do with it. Edited March 23 by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 According to a few senior riders, ''the fence is off'' 3 deep the way home...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 26 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Well come on, let’s be honest. The horse was clearly better than the rest, otherwise it would have been beaten after that run… Well the 0.5kg advantage didn't help Cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Bogged down on the fence, Michael Walker just told it all, even the winner of the last cut the corner as they were all 4 off the fence, then he headed to the centre of the track, The Valley is rooted it appears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 9 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: Bogged down on the fence, Michael Walker just told it all, even the winner of the last cut the corner as they were all 4 off the fence, then he headed to the centre of the track, The Valley is rooted it appears. I wouldn't listen to Michael Walker. Horses have won there today from all sorts of draws. Mind you it might be off if a Roc De Cambes can win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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