Inca - At last The Press say it is dead

[LongOwner]

As a strong commentator that the whole thing was a joke - it has been confirmed but RIB running with - No Comment .

I assume many will now apologise.

Let’s hope heads roll.

 

[Nowornever]

I predicted the outcome the day it came out. Could have saved 10s of millions of dollars if they had asked me instead of going off on a wild crusade.

 

[Chief Stipe]

55 minutes ago, LongOwner said:

As a strong commentator that the whole thing was a joke - it has been confirmed but RIB running with - No Comment .

I assume many will now apologise.

Let’s hope heads roll.

 

Do you have a link to the news?

Essentially INCA ended last December when the charged put a stay on the last two charges.

There are some obvious targets at the RIB who should be on shaky tenures.  But I doubt it will happen even the honourable "retiring after x years of dedicated service" won't happen!

[LongOwner]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Do you have a link to the news?

Essentially INCA ended last December when the charged put a stay on the last two charges.

In Saturdays The Press-Canterbury paper.

I am trying to paste it . I have a pdf.

[LongOwner]

Just now, LongOwner said:

In Saturdays The Press-Canterbury paper.

I am trying to paste it . I have a pdf.

 

How novel har_ness racing cor_rup_tion probe col_lapsed.pdf

[Gammalite]

You guys are really funny. For years I have read on these threads accusations and heaps of grizzling of team driving , race fixing, drugged horses in NZ on these forums . You have an investigation to catch some of the culprits (Mc Grath caught red-handed) and grizzle all the more 😂.

Reputation Damaged you say ? by the Investigation ? lol. I think Alford and Jones and characters like that are the one's who damaged the Reputation of the harness Industry. Not the people trying to keep it clean . You NEED them , more than anything . 

I once travelled with a horse at trials in NZ and it raced as another (different name). To hide the name of the one that actually started in the trial and won easy. Was given a solid hit-out to see ok out of mobile and that . (was all good and duly saluted first up not long after at nice odds for the owner)  Anyway a leak made it's way to the stewards from something I said to someone,  and they arrived in bulk (4 of them piling out a car) at the home stables the next day questioning and investigating the incident. I just said "I'm only a teen kid mate, I don't know one horse from another"  . nothing they can do about that lie. I felt bad what can you do. we were cheating. so nothing could be done after the fact anyway.  but that's the way it is. Investigators NEVER get straight answers mates. What a tough job . and all you guys want to do is shoot some-one because they couldn't shoot down the industry heavyweights.

GREAT that they didn't get anyone (except McGrath who had a chequered history) . But GREAT they were there to try and uncover the truth .   Keep up the good clean racing NZ !!!!

 

Edited April 23 by Gammalite

[LongOwner]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Do you have a link to the news?

Essentially INCA ended last December when the charged put a stay on the last two charges.

There are some obvious targets at the RIB who should be on shaky tenures.  But I doubt it will happen even the honourable "retiring after x years of dedicated service" won't happen!

Yes but still some loose ends to have judge say the end !

And couple name suppression issues to be heard - again a more cost to the innocent .

[LongOwner]

6 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

You guys are really funny. For years I have read on these threads accusations and heaps of grizzling of team driving , race fixing, drugged horses in NZ on these forums . You have an investigation to catch some of the culprits (Mc Grath caught red-handed) and grizzle all the more 😂.

Reputation Damaged you say ? by the Investigation ? lol. I think Alford and Jones and characters like that are the one's who damaged the Reputation of the harness Industry. Not the people trying to keep it clean . You NEED them , more than anything . 

I once travelled with a horse at trials in NZ and it raced as another (different name). To hide the name of the one that actually started in the trial and won easy. Was given a solid hit-out to see ok out of mobile and that . (was all good and duly saluted first up not long after at nice odds for the owner)  Anyway a leak made it's way to the stewards from something I said to someone,  and they arrived in bulk (4 of them piling out a car) at the home stables the next day questioning and investigating the incident. I just said "I'm only a teen kid mate, I don't know one horse from another"  . nothing they can do about that lie. I felt bad what can you do. we were cheating. so nothing could be done after the fact anyway.  but that's the way it is. Investigators NEVER get straight answers mates. What a tough job . and all you guys want to do is shoot some-one because they couldn't shoot down the industry heavyweights.

GREAT that they didn't get anyone (except McGrath who had a chequered history) . But GREAT they were there to try and uncover the truth .   Keep up the good clean racing NZ !!!!

 

The ones trying to hang the hard working top of the sport participants were the bush trainers who think a long day is 6 hours max and jealous individuals and poor trainers (A lot of trainers are poor).

I was there from day one and know cops took kids to school in police cars, bullied those charged , tried blackmailing those charged , deals to try and break the innocent etc.

I know the whistle blowers as well and they all lost a punt plus jealous.

I have lost many punts but this vindictive blot on harness racing was shocking as there was never a trace of evidence.

[Spatchcock]

The police/crown have lodged some sort of appeal very recently.

[the galah]

a

4 hours ago, LongOwner said:

The ones trying to hang the hard working top of the sport participants were the bush trainers who think a long day is 6 hours max and jealous individuals and poor trainers (A lot of trainers are poor).

I was there from day one and know cops took kids to school in police cars, bullied those charged , tried blackmailing those charged , deals to try and break the innocent etc.

I know the whistle blowers as well and they all lost a punt plus jealous.

I have lost many punts but this vindictive blot on harness racing was shocking as there was never a trace of evidence.

I've said it before and will say it again.

it seems general knowledge that early on in operation inca the police were gathering evidence through various means,including  having people act as undercover type operatives.They were looking to establish whether there was anything to the allegations that had been made.And at that stage,they were being treated as just allegations.

So part of that early evidence gathering took place at the nelson meeting.

so what evidence did they gather that weekend. Well i thought it was common knowledge tthat they spoke to a driver who boasted how results could be manipulated through team driving.

Then,what happens.We got what many consider one of the most obvious cases of a horse not being driven on its merits. The johnny white race.It was all over social media and even the trackside presenter said as much,although anyone watching could have worked it out anyway.

So what did you expect the police or whoever to do. The evidence they gathered on that day cleary kept the wheels turning for their investigation.

Yet, here you are,still going on that its the fault of jealous ,poor trainers. No one else. just them.What a plonker.

I'll give you points for loyalty,whoever you are and whoever it is you are trying to be loyal to.But without self reflection,people won't learn anything going forward. So lets hope others aren't as blinkered as you.

Edited April 24 by the galah

[Gammalite]

5 hours ago, LongOwner said:

The ones trying to hang the hard working top of the sport participants were the bush trainers who think a long day is 6 hours max and jealous individuals and poor trainers (A lot of trainers are poor).

I was there from day one and know cops took kids to school in police cars, bullied those charged , tried blackmailing those charged , deals to try and break the innocent etc.

I know the whistle blowers as well and they all lost a punt plus jealous.

Nearly ALL stables 'do' something LO that pushes the boundaries. whether it be in a race or treatment of horses whatever . galloping and trotting. big or small stable.

No excuse to break the rules whichever is the case.

You are a bit soft in NZ . In QLD we don't muck around . Leading trainer/ driver Shane Graham did 2 years fixing a midweeker. Grant Dixon had his wife Trista  given a year DQ for team driving. there's the Pitt and Jack 'affair' of course. and even recently some of the BEST trainers in the country were given Time-Out. Kerry-anne Morris, even the very Best of the Best EMMA STEWART given 6 months .

and don't get me started on Ben Yole in Tassie 🤢 . 😂 what an abortion of all rules that situation is. the Supreme court has currently dumped him 'out' again. but he'll back like the fricken Terminator. He terminates a lot of the trotting ethics and nice horse's anyway 🤕.

you guys have just gone all woosey and won't dump anyone out. Well ya did get those Kerr, Alford and Jones Scoundrels in the end . so Progress is Being Made !! keep it up . get Inca back ? lol 😂    

[Chief Stipe]

37 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

you guys have just gone all woosey and won't dump anyone out. Well ya did get those Kerr, Alford and Jones Scoundrels in the end . so Progress is Being Made !! keep it up . get Inca back ? lol 😂    

But nothing to do with race fixing.  $14m of industry money later.  Cost a lot to rattle a sabre for no result.

[Gammalite]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But nothing to do with race fixing.  $14m of industry money later.  Cost a lot to rattle a sabre for no result.

McGrath was a result?. and people are wasting $10 million on yearlings alone these these days 😁 and $55 million on track surfaces ? seems to have gone a bit haywire too.

What price to force good honest racing ? 

[Chief Stipe]

32 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

McGrath was a result?. and people are wasting $10 million on yearlings alone these these days 😁 and $55 million on track surfaces ? seems to have gone a bit haywire too.

What price to force good honest racing ? 

What $14m wasted on proving no race fixing?

[Brodie]

The thing is the damage to the harness image going forward.

From what I have heard there really wasnt anything out of the ordinary and it was handled so poorly by both HRNZ and the Police!

Ffs, to be having these raids on trainers property was farcical.

The financial, mental and reputation cost to trainers and drivers in the industry will never be recovered.

Racing Integrity Unit missing in action as they were the ones that I wouldve thought shouldve dealt with it, inhouse without the police becoming involved as it clearly shows was flimsy at best!

[With A Dream]

20 hours ago, the galah said:

So what did you expect the police or whoever to do. The evidence they gathered on that day cleary kept the wheels turning for their investigation.

No one has a problem with crooks being outed , it’s charging people that they have no evidence against that is the problem.  Imagine for instance you had a horse that  performed poorly in a race & as a result of someone over hearing you asking the trainer to get blood tests done you are accused & charged with race fixing.  It’s pure nonsense but that’s what was going on.  It’s not investigation people are against, it’s the charging of innocent people of crimes for which there is no evidence. 

Edited April 24 by With A Dream

[mikeynz]

2 minutes ago, With A Dream said:

, It’s the charging of innocent people of crimes for which there is no evidence. 

Happening to Roy Cropper at the moment😂

[the galah]

2 hours ago, With A Dream said:

No one has a problem with crooks being outed , it’s charging people that they have no evidence against that is the problem.  Imagine for instance you had a horse that  performed poorly in a race & as a result of someone over hearing you asking the trainer to get blood tests done you are accused & charged with race fixing.  It’s pure nonsense but that’s what was going on.  It’s not investigation people are against, it’s the charging of innocent people of crimes for which there is no evidence. 

We can't really disect the merits of who was charged and what evidence was presented to support that.We don't have access to that.

There was sure to be  many threads to the rope which provided the strength of evidence to charge.

With time and reflection,we can now say the police had insufficient evidence to prove what they alleged and that those charged have  proven that ,through their defence offered,often in court.

Thats the reality.

But no one,can tar everyone involved with the same brush or judge the merits,or lack thereof, of everyone based on someone elses case.People can't use one example and say thats a reflection of every case.

There is sure to have been higher levels of innocence and sometimes wrongdoing,but it did not meet the burden of proof required for criminal wrongdoing in the courts.

Personally i have always said i did not question the integrity of some involved as i've seen them go out and try 100% week after week for years. Blair orange the most obvious example of that. 

But i also said,im my opinion,sometimes you just know beyond doubt,when a horse is being pulled and to me, johnny white at nelson was a perfect example of that.So no one was convicted of that.

Finally ,i've always said there were 4 groups of people who should shoulder the most responsibilty for inca.

1)the stipes for their inaction and for the lack of guts to properly investigate questionable activity.Their weakness in standing up to the backlash they always get from industry participants and some officials,when they even dare question or hold to account more high profile people,well that sets the standards for what people see as being tolerated,when it shouldn't have been.

2)past licence holders and stipes who set standards of integrity which lead current participants to believe the same standards were still acceptable. Its just natural for someone to think something is ok or tolerated if they have seen it going on for donkey's years. Why would they think they are doing much wrong.

3)those involved. absolutely they have paid a price that was unjust,but they still must look at themselves in the mirror and reflect as to whether ,had they done something differently or not done something,would they have had to pay that unfair cost.

4)finally industry participants and supporters who see obvious questionable activity and just go along with it,often because they benefit from it.The type of person who judges something on the personalities involved,and not the actions .Both are relevant,not just one. If you knew someone well and they respected that you were saying something in a way that wasn't judgmental of the person,just you didn't agree with the actions,then just maybe the person would think twice and reconsider doing it again.

Who knows.we don't live in a a perfect world.Never will.

There are so many shades of grey in life and  sometimes you get caught up with something where you are left feeling aggrieved,frustrated and angry. And i'm sure ,in some instances there were some involved in operation inca that would be totally justified feeling that way,even after honest self reflection. Thats not fair and would be very hard to deal with. But it happened and you have to.

Thats my final thoughts.

Edited April 25 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, the galah said:

We can't really disect the merits of who was charged and what evidence was presented to support that.We don't have access to that.

There was sure to be  many threads to the rope which provided the strength of evidence to charge.

With time and reflection,we can now say the police had insufficient evidence to prove what they alleged and that those charged have  proven that ,through their defence offered,often in court.

Thats the reality.

But no one,can tar everyone involved with the same brush or judge the merits,or lack thereof, of everyone based on someone elses case.People can't use one example and say thats a reflection of every case.

There is sure to have been higher levels of innocence and sometimes wrongdoing,but it did not meet the burden of proof required for criminal wrongdoing in the courts.

Personally i have always said i did not question the integrity of some involved as i've seen them go out and try 100% week after week for years. Blair orange the most obvious example of that. 

But i also said,im my opinion,sometimes you just know beyond doubt,when a horse is being pulled and to me, johnny white at nelson was a perfect example of that.So no one was convicted of that.

Finally ,i've always said there were 4 groups of people who should shoulder the most responsibilty for inca.

1)the stipes for their inaction and for the lack of guts to properly investigate questionable activity.Their weakness in standing up to the backlash they always get from industry participants and some officials,when they even dare question or hold to account more high profile people,well that sets the standards for what people see as being tolerated,when it shouldn't have been.

2)past licence holders and stipes who set standards of integrity which lead current participants to believe the same standards were still acceptable. Its just natural for someone to think something is ok or tolerated if they have seen it going on for donkey's years. Why would they think they are doing much wrong.

3)those involved. absolutely they have paid a price that was unjust,but they still must look at themselves in the mirror and reflect as to whether ,had they done something differently or not done something,would they have had to pay that unfair cost.

4)finally industry participants and supporters who see obvious questionable activity and just go along with it,often because they benefit from it.The type of person who judges something on the personalities involved,and not the actions .Both are relevant,not just one. If you knew someone well and they respected that you were saying something in a way that wasn't judgmental of the person,just you didn't agree with the actions,then just maybe the person would think twice and reconsider doing it again.

Who knows.we don't live in a a perfect world.Never will.

There are so many shades of grey in life and  sometimes you get caught up with something where you are left feeling aggrieved,frustrated and angry. And i'm sure ,in some instances there were some involved in operation inca that would be totally justified feeling that way,even after honest self reflection. Thats not fair and would be very hard to deal with. But it happened and you have to.

Thats my final thoughts.

That's a very long winded way of saying that the prosecution had insufficient evidence to even get to trial.

$14m+ of industry funds down the gurgler not to mention the money spent by the defendents.

Yep brilliant work @the galah.

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

That's a very long winded way of saying that the prosecution had insufficient evidence to even get to trial.

$14m+ of industry funds down the gurgler not to mention the money spent by the defendents.

Yep brilliant work @the galah.

Yes a total blight on the harness industry to try and nail many members of the harness racing fraternity and for WHAt.

From the hearsay evidence I have heard, it was making a mountain out of a molehill, and has left a black mark and bad taste in the mouth of harness participants that the general public have seen!

The RIU, should take a serious look at the very poor exhibition of their talents or lack of talent!

The amount of money drained from the accused having to defend themselves is quite abhorrent and also the loss of dignity while the accused had to continue with the charges against them for many years!

Most probably have an opinion on Operation Inca, but from my point of view it shouldve been changed to OPERATION STINKA!

Are the accused going to have their costs reimbursed to them by HRNZ?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Are the accused going to have their costs reimbursed to them by HRNZ?

Should be paid by the RIB!

[Rangatira]

19 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Should be paid by the RIB!

Personally or with industry funds ?

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

Personally or with industry funds ?

they'll have a barbie togeather and just all get on with it. Accusations are nothing new. Proving with evidence is the hard bit. no one tells the real story lol . NZ is Fantasy Island isn't it ? where dreams come true .  

[Rangatira]

22 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Proving with evidence is the hard bit

Especially if you never had it to start with.

[Gammalite]

4 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

Especially if you never had it to start with.