Doomed Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 9 hours ago, Brodie said: I am sure Brad Steele the new CEO is still encouraged by the size no. of the fields at Cambridge this week! Fields with great numbers of 4, 5 and 6 starters is really going to get the turnover going? Can they really be serious and afford to run these meetings for very big financial losses week in and week out? Things are not looking like Entain were hoping! To give them credit Brodie, who could possibly have known running non stop meetings at Cambridge for $8,000 would attract small fields and unattractive racing. Next you will be suggesting Manawatu might end up similar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomed Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 59 minutes ago, Brodie said: Can not fathom a lot of Entain decisions they have made if they were serious about increasing turnover? That is a very valid point, and one that I keep thinking about myself. I have no idea who is running the show, Entain or HRNZ? The same in the gallops. I could understand it if some of the strange decisions were obviously designed to boost turnovers, but clearly they aren't. The classic example is abandoning many Thursdays and Fridays for the gallops and jamming them all onto Sundays. That will have a catastrophic impact on gross off course turnover. Entain don't give any impression they understand the racing industry at all. But even more bizarrely they don't seem to understand how to maximise turnovers and show a profit. We are certainly going through a time in the racing industry the likes of which I have never experienced before. The worrying thing is that many people who should know better don't seem to have noticed that there is anything even slightly strange going on. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 2 hours ago, Brodie said: Yes good for the owner as he will always get money in a 4 horse field. The thing is Gamma, it is going to just turn the Punter off as not worth the effort when every horse that places is less than $2 top 3! This arrangement of racing on a Tuesday night is really not going to work, and it never was going to! The betting figures are going to continue to be disastrous week in and week out unfortunately. Can not fathom a lot of Entain decisions they have made if they were serious about increasing turnover? Well it's a poor product to bet on anytime mate. Not many Do. I'm just home from Albion Park where saw a mates horse race today, where there was 20 people (patrons) upstairs inside the stand , and none betting. The old lady at the one tote window was sitting there knitting. Yes I know people don't have cash , so are betting on their phone. There were more people in the mid-section of the stand that has been leased out as a fitness centre ,open daily 😆🤣😂 But still . You've said it yourself I think once or twice. Sports Betting is their (any betting agency) Priority and it's what the demand is for. I'm a harness fan Bigtime but FAR more likely(5 x more likely) to bet on gallops races (Aus) and football. It's just the way it is. Only 2 starters in the football so odds of winning are HUGE. the Trots?? mmmmm.so you want to see Increase Turnover ? won't happen mate. At least the ENTAIN CEO has bought 17 horses at your sales (to support Breeders) and the Northern harness racing scene. When he doesn't have to. ENTAIN probably happy to Just put races on for The Last FEW of us Legitimate Harness racing supporters (and Participants as The Galah and I have mentioned a few times) left to Enjoy. like a lot of other sports that survive (just) without betting , and are just still going because of Horse Loving people. (show-jumps, etc) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 6 hours ago, Gammalite said: Well it's a poor product to bet on anytime mate. Not many Do. I'm just home from Albion Park where saw a mates horse race today, where there was 20 people (patrons) upstairs inside the stand , and none betting. The old lady at the one tote window was sitting there knitting. Yes I know people don't have cash , so are betting on their phone. There were more people in the mid-section of the stand that has been leased out as a fitness centre ,open daily 😆🤣😂 But still . You've said it yourself I think once or twice. Sports Betting is their (any betting agency) Priority and it's what the demand is for. I'm a harness fan Bigtime but FAR more likely(5 x more likely) to bet on gallops races (Aus) and football. It's just the way it is. Only 2 starters in the football so odds of winning are HUGE. the Trots?? mmmmm.so you want to see Increase Turnover ? won't happen mate. At least the ENTAIN CEO has bought 17 horses at your sales (to support Breeders) and the Northern harness racing scene. When he doesn't have to. ENTAIN probably happy to Just put races on for The Last FEW of us Legitimate Harness racing supporters (and Participants as The Galah and I have mentioned a few times) left to Enjoy. like a lot of other sports that survive (just) without betting , and are just still going because of Horse Loving people. (show-jumps, etc) The jury is well and truly out on the new CEO Brad Steele! Personally haven’t seen much from him that gives much confidence in him. They seem to think that by bringing out an Ozzie to interview trainers and tell us just how great Entain is by throwing money at the harness industry is the answer! Well I can tell you that it will take far more than that for things to improve and where is the Entain CEO Dean Shannon? Havent heard from him for months! At the end of the day Entain are calling all the shots and the shots will slowly kill the industry the way they are going. The North Island harness is in the throes of being wiped out by putting meetings on a Tuesday. News flash, most punters won’t be betting on a Tuesday with 4 horse fields. Thursdays would’ve been far better and Friday and Saturday nights for Canterbury. Hope I am wrong but I firmly believe that Entain have one intention in mind all along and that was the sports betting! If it wasn’t they seriously are a very poor business model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeynz Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 On 8/21/2024 at 2:14 AM, Brodie said: The jury is well and truly out on the new CEO Brad Steele! Personally haven’t seen much from him that gives much confidence in him. They seem to think that by bringing out an Ozzie to interview trainers and tell us just how great Entain is by throwing money at the harness industry is the answer! Well I can tell you that it will take far more than that for things to improve and where is the Entain CEO Dean Shannon? Havent heard from him for months! At the end of the day Entain are calling all the shots and the shots will slowly kill the industry the way they are going. The North Island harness is in the throes of being wiped out by putting meetings on a Tuesday. News flash, most punters won’t be betting on a Tuesday with 4 horse fields. Thursdays would’ve been far better and Friday and Saturday nights for Canterbury. Hope I am wrong but I firmly believe that Entain have one intention in mind all along and that was the sports betting! If it wasn’t they seriously are a very poor business model. There are a lot of things since this new lot have come to town that have been interesting/mystifying, jamming up Sundays, Tuesdays weekly at Cambridge, 2 Friday night meetings, most Southern meetings on Thursdays no place odds on TV, buying the radio frequencies yet we have seen nothing change, I understand though that apparently there was to be no programme change for a year, why I don't know, the reality is though if you don't change things or try then nothing changes. I came on to this site about the time of covid and we all had comments about the state of things regarding racing, I just hope that in 4 years time we ain't having similar discussions, maybe we will, maybe not but at least trying something different is better than nothing although I am perplexed by some of their ideas only time will tell. I won't lose sleep over it either way, been around long enough to stop giving a shit, racing for me is a casual interest, fortunately I don't make my living out of it, if I did I would be anxious though as it seems to be in decline, many who do make their living probably don't know much else but be best to make hay while the sun shines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slippery Slope Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 Friday 23rd will mark 3 weeks of the new Tuesday Cambridge/ Friday Alexandra Park setup. By end of tomorrow night we will have had 44 races across the 6 meetings at the two venues. Only 6 of those races will have achieved the minimum optimal fields size for betting revenue, 10 or more. But sadly the generally least optimal (highest cost) field sizes 6 or less will have occurred in at best 15 of those 44 races, assuming no more scratchings for Alexandra Park tomorrow night. I mention this because next Tuesday Cambridge have a few more nominations than the last two weeks- 66. If HRNZ are still on top of the data and equations of betting revenue earned relative to stakes subsidies paid as they were for the last couple of years they will already know how much dividing nominations of 12 to 14 before scratchings into fields of 5/6/7 is costing the industry immediately more money in terms of excess stakes subsidy to betting revenue. So watch out if they still keep doing field splitting next week as they have for the last two meetings. At the moment this is just a narrow and more short term question of trying to understand why HRNZ are apparently consciously splitting fields at a greater cost. No commentary has been made to date, and maybe they are still just experimenting, which may be fair enough if they are properly monitoring the outcomes from this experimentation. We just don't know. In making this observation there's also the bigger picture and longer term question of what the relatively poorer quality of product simply due to field size that we are now offering in the north vs the south will do to relative Australasian punter interest on meetings in the North? If R60 and below class racing is our core product offer for c.80%+ of all races but then in the North its predominatly dished up in fields of 7 or less vs 10 or more (plus on grass tracks) in the South, that seems a tough place to grow overall punter interest in Auckland and Waikato harness racing. Lots of questions still to be answered, hopefully HRNZ are monitoring and analysing outcomes as they go. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 46 minutes ago, Slippery Slope said: I mention this because next Tuesday Cambridge have a few more nominations than the last two weeks- 66. Of course . More horses come back into racing in the Spring and Summer. Always have. you blokes critiicising the smaller fields at Cambridge as some are just getting worked up , is just being impatient. Of course split the fields !! . Give more owners a winner , and your horse doesn't have to work as hard trying to get round heaps of horses. the Horses benefit from this as well. I can tell you the REDICULOUS Big field On Friday night at Addington (16 in the Maurice Holmes Vase) is just Stupid. should be split into 2 x 8 horse fields. maybe run as heats with a Final next week which would Attract More interest (and revenue) this is because > 1/ because punters won't touch it , as too hard to pick and people Value their money more these days. Cambridge races much easier to pick? and therefore invest on. 💰👍 2/ A lot of horses resuming their Spring Campaigns. They are gunna be'' flattened' from the first run back trying to win this race (if they're racing fair dinkum') .Which I suspect many won't. making it even MORE Farcical. 3/ 16 horse fields like that are just a ''relic of the past'. and very hard for owners (and the mugged South Island punters) to get a quid in. They'd be way better shipping to Auckland and actually having some hope of a win with their 'Intermediate grade' pride and joy. rather than try and win that against BD Joe and company. 😎🏆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westview Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 Betting figures will tell you our best betting races have over 10 starters unfortunately Cambridge and Auckland struggle to attract those numbers but if you like betting into 6 horse fields and two dollar favorites with small exotic pools knock yourself out. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slippery Slope Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 2 minutes ago, Westview said: Betting figures will tell you our best betting races have over 10 starters unfortunately Cambridge and Auckland struggle to attract those numbers but if you like betting into 6 horse fields and two dollar favorites with small exotic pools knock yourself out. Just to be clear, whilst I agree with the observation about 16 vs 12 in general, as a one off what Gammalite's forgetting is the higher class of the race and the familarity of so many horses to punters will give a really large offset to uplift betting (just like a Country Cups full field) vs an everyday R50 race where 12 is as he observes to be preferred to 16. HRNZ and Entain have all the historical data and modelling to work this out- rest assured the upcoming Friday night feature will be a way more profitable race for harness racing vs the alternative of 2 fields of 8,and the latter would have been twice exposed to scratching risk thus dragging return the field size down still further. Another recent thread references correctly to the good work the brains trust in the Utilisation Reference Group have just released. Two key quotes: "maximising wagering turnover will be the principle consideration" and "we should be aiming to achieve annual annual and increasing minimum average of 10 to 11 starters". Sorry but splitting 12 acceptances of R50 or lower classified horses into two fields of 6 has proven over the long term based on HRNZ's own data analysis to give a lesser return (betting revenue less stakes subsidy) to the industry and thus its owners. Given HRNZ is already overspending its available stakes subsidy funds relative to where we be in 4 more years I'd hope it should listen to its brains trust. Alternatively explain why it thinks (knows) based on the actual financial results that 2x6 horse fields with the scratching risk that follows is a lesser and/or sustainable cost to the industry vs one field of 12, which they have already proven to be in the band of the optimum field size for maximising net revenue for the industry. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 35 minutes ago, Westview said: Betting figures will tell you our best betting races have over 10 starters unfortunately Cambridge and Auckland struggle to attract those numbers but if you like betting into 6 horse fields and two dollar favorites with small exotic pools knock yourself out. I bet on 2 starter races like a lot of people that I know . Football like NRL, EPL, AFL etc. . Plenty of $1.80 pop's winning Every week. LOVE small fields mate. you're not a driver but can tell you it is INFINITELY better to drive in a 8 horse field compared to a 10 horse one. You can even still be 8th at the quarter , and still a chance of winning. That stupid race this Friday with 16 ?? 8 horses will be No chance 400m out. That's the difference my friend. I had a place bet the other week at Cambridge on Majestic Ruby , who I couldn't see missing a place , in the 7 horse field. (1st or 2nd) horse racing is for enthusiasts and mugs. A lot of us are both 🤣. Plenty of horses running with NO CHance all the time. Better to have 2 starters on your Bet Westy !! 😁 . You have been pouring money into the Dunn v Telfer Premiership battle so you know exactly what i'm talking about. This Friday, That 16 horse field will flatten a couple of old mate John Dunn's as well (potentially) . with 6 runners in it. better if was 2 heats as he would have 2 lots of happy owners then . Rather than jealous stable rival owners that make life difficult. and the 'excuses' having to be made constantly. like Driver errors with young drivers and other total BS like that. Newman seems to get bugger all drives. thought he had passed away for a minute. not likely to get any better (at driving) anyway. At Cambridge in those small fields/low stakes, ALL THE YOUNGSTERS are getting a go lately , and doing a great job , and just as likely to Win as David Butcher. You guys just don't get it. you need these type of races for the young drivers to get better.!! Can't All be like Sarah O'Reilly and Carter and still be good chance, in the Big field sizes as a youngster/ learner driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) On 8/20/2024 at 4:06 PM, Doomed said: To give them credit Brodie, who could possibly have known running non stop meetings at Cambridge for $8,000 would attract small fields and unattractive racing. Next you will be suggesting Manawatu might end up similar. well it's just that the people involved (owners and Trainers and drivers) like to get a win . Just as much as the punters. Some Punters are happy with small collects. (Brodie isn't so he suffers) KIWI Trainer here in Brisbane . RILEY BUTT . son of Tim Butt . you guys would know him well. Yesterday (the equivalent of your Cambridge racing day is run here Thursdays for low/slow class horses ) he started his race team and won 2 races , and some placings. He's still a junior driver, and drives some himself but has taken on the training with Tim near retired. He won 2 races in an incredible 1.53.6. the other in 1.52.2 . (with 2 horses Ant's Butt has a share in actually). They picked up $3,755 each . It's not about the money . It's good placement to WIN A RACE. They probably wouldn't be able to beat Big Team trainers Pete McMullen and Grant Dixon on a Saturday Metro night , so don't even bother trying . Riley making a great fist of the Training. At least he saw the light and doing well here supporting QLD harness than the mud-slinging fest of NZ. So Cambridge and Manawatu are worth having so they can Win a race there too. Even if it was for $2000 . better than getting mugged by BarryP, Telfer, Herlihy and that in the city. The meeting appears 'Unattractive' . well whippy Doo. Just be glad some participants are getting a win up . (while they still can with the ever decreasing attitudes of Nz harness (and galloping ) racing Industries. Edited August 22 by Gammalite 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gammalite said: well it's just that the people involved (owners and Trainers and drivers) like to get a win . Just as much as the punters. Some Punters are happy with small collects. (Brodie isn't so he suffers) KIWI Trainer here in Brisbane . RILEY BUTT . son of Tim Butt . you guys would know him well. Yesterday (the equivalent of your Cambridge racing day is run here Thursdays for low/slow class horses ) he started his race team and won 2 races , and some placings. He's still a junior driver, and drives some himself but has taken on the training with Tim near retired. He won 2 races in an incredible 1.53.6. the other in 1.52.2 . (with 2 horses Ant's Butt has a share in actually). They picked up $3,755 each . It's not about the money . It's good placement to WIN A RACE. They probably wouldn't be able to beat Big Team trainers Pete McMullen and Grant Dixon on a Saturday Metro night , so don't even bother trying . Riley making a great fist of the Training. At least he saw the light and doing well here supporting QLD harness than the mud-slinging fest of NZ. So Cambridge and Manawatu are worth having so they can Win a race there too. Even if it was for $2000 . better than getting mugged by BarryP, Telfer, Herlihy and that in the city. The meeting appears 'Unattractive' . well whippy Doo. Just be glad some participants are getting a win up . (while they still can with the ever decreasing attitudes of Nz harness (and galloping ) racing Industries. its easy enough to see the merit in what you say,but the thing is the albion park races yesterday ran for stakes of $6200 and $4800 and had 8 races with an average field size just over 10. cambridge ran 7 races for stakes averaging around $7300 with an average field size of 7.7. They chose to run 3 races with field sizes of 4,5 &6. Had they combined those races into 2 instead of 3,(they were for similar type graded horses)they could have had an average field size of just under 9. For some reason the head of HRNZ issued a statement saying running the extra races with starters of only 4 and 5 was a positive sign. so albion park ran 8 races worth total stakes of around $41,000 and new zealand ran 7 races for stakes of around $51,000. albion park would have generated higher turnover. so i agree with the sentiment of what your saying,the only thing is queensland seem to do it in a way that will be sustainable,whereas the worry and expectation in nz is,because the stakes currently paid are too high given the turnover of the cambridge races,the loss that they run at, will impact the stakes they have available to pay out in canterbury and as a result owners ,trainers and breeders in canterbury will drop out of the game because the returns are too low.And because less numbers will participate in canterbury as a result,turnovers will drop and the future stakes availabe to pay in the north island will need to be reduced in the future. so the answer is to reduce the stakes at cambridge meetings,provide a betting product with more starters per race(don't split fields to run 5 horse races),and adjust the ratings points penalties to reflect the level of stakes won. that seems reasonably obvious,but thats how things are currently being run. Edited August 23 by the galah 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowornever Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 22 hours ago, Gammalite said: 1/ because punters won't touch it , as too hard to pick and people Value their money more these days. Cambridge races much easier to pick? and therefore invest on. 💰👍 Incorrect. I live for these sort of races because it so hard to pick for the average punter. Bigger dividends attract my dollar a lot more than a 1.50 favourite in an 8 horse field. That is one of the reasons that grass is so popular for punters. Also the racing in summer months is a lot better with the variation in horse form with horses coming from different tracks, grass to grit and grit to grass creates a better base for punting rather than the boring same horses racing the same horses on the same tracks all the time. Of course raising the number of horses currently racing is the key but If I were running the show I would be trying to create variation in the racing fields by attracting horses to race further away from their normal venues. Why don't they run some 15-20K maiden races a couple of weeks in a row at various venues and get trainers to travel. HRNZ could subsidize travel to make it more attractive. I agree with Galahs thoughts on creating a training base especially if it included a new grass racetrack. Resurrect another Hororata or something similar in that area halfway between Ashburton and Chch. Have a 2000m track or bigger with a 400m straight to make the racing more even instead of these 150m sprints up the straight. If Entain are so keen to throw money around then it could be called the Entain Raceway or Entain Harness Complex. Bring on major sponsors I am sure it could be done if the right people were behind it. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 4 hours ago, Nowornever said: Incorrect. I live for these sort of races because it so hard to pick for the average punter. Bigger dividends attract my dollar a lot more than a 1.50 favourite in an 8 horse field. That is one of the reasons that grass is so popular for punters. Also the racing in summer months is a lot better with the variation in horse form with horses coming from different tracks, grass to grit and grit to grass creates a better base for punting rather than the boring same horses racing the same horses on the same tracks all the time. Of course raising the number of horses currently racing is the key but If I were running the show I would be trying to create variation in the racing fields by attracting horses to race further away from their normal venues. Why don't they run some 15-20K maiden races a couple of weeks in a row at various venues and get trainers to travel. HRNZ could subsidize travel to make it more attractive. I agree with Galahs thoughts on creating a training base especially if it included a new grass racetrack. Resurrect another Hororata or something similar in that area halfway between Ashburton and Chch. Have a 2000m track or bigger with a 400m straight to make the racing more even instead of these 150m sprints up the straight. If Entain are so keen to throw money around then it could be called the Entain Raceway or Entain Harness Complex. Bring on major sponsors I am sure it could be done if the right people were behind it. Entain I very much doubt are going to be throwing money into racetracks or training centres! They are not that type of business, they are a gambling business solely. They promised to put a certain amount of money into racing stskes for 5 years and that is what they will do. After that it will sink or swim, they got what they wanted and pretty cheaply as well! How many tracks or training centres have they put in overseas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 4 hours ago, Nowornever said: On 8/22/2024 at 12:13 PM, Gammalite said: 1/ because punters won't touch it , as too hard to pick and people Value their money more these days. Cambridge races much easier to pick? and therefore invest on. 💰👍 Incorrect. I live for these sort of races because it so hard to pick for the average punter. Bigger dividends attract my dollar a lot more than a 1.50 favourite in an 8 horse field. That is one of the reasons that grass is so popular for punters. Fair enough Now or Never. Most of the blokes here have said they enjoy the punt on the Southern races. That's good.👍🍺 I should of said I feel that the Cambridge results are slightly easier to pick . so seemed to me a better race to punt on ( I have high expectations with my punting and expect every dollar invested to win , and take no chances lol. strike remains 50% so I'm happy with that. ) I think the quality of product at Addington tonight is very good . the horses and drivers are of excellent quality. The First 2 races have gone to outsiders , I would of been No Hope In Hell of picking them , and even less chance of investing 💰 on them.😆 Best of Luck to all those having a crack at it though , there's fun to be had !!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 6 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Fair enough Now or Never. Most of the blokes here have said they enjoy the punt on the Southern races. That's good.👍🍺 I should of said I feel that the Cambridge results are slightly easier to pick . so seemed to me a better race to punt on ( I have high expectations with my punting and expect every dollar invested to win , and take no chances lol. strike remains 50% so I'm happy with that. ) I think the quality of product at Addington tonight is very good . the horses and drivers are of excellent quality. The First 2 races have gone to outsiders , I would of been No Hope In Hell of picking them , and even less chance of investing 💰 on them.😆 Best of Luck to all those having a crack at it though , there's fun to be had !!!! I can’t even get on anything! Currently overseas and so can not get TAB webbsite to punt, which seems crazy! Anyway havent even looked at the fields on HRNZ so bit of a break for Brodie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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