End of Allstars dominance confirmed

[Gammalite]

With 5 x Group 1's features up for grabs tonight , is the changing of the guard with NO Allstars win's from their 9 runners.

Ever since SWAYZEE reduced the mighty Allstars barn to 2nd place in the last 2 New Zealand Cups (Akuta and Don't Stop Dreaming) the once great team is racing for 2nd place more than for the Win , for near the past 2 years now. 

NINE stable runners tonight on a Feature Race card and NO wins achieved.

Congrats to ALL their fantastic main rivals Trainers for all the Big wins . Dalgety's (Messenger) Cullens (Oaks) Dunns ( Anzac trotting Cup) Barry and Scott (Trotters Derby) and Regan Todd for the extraordinary win by budding champ MARKETPLACE (in the GN Derby by 7 lengths.)

those 5 x  terrific training teams All continuing their fantastic run of success over past 2 years .

for the record ALLstars were tonight  (2nd in both 2 year old young gun races + 2 unplaced runners as well ) 5th in Oaks, balloted right out of trotting Derby, 2nd in pacing Derby, 7th in Messenger and old stable warrior OscarB just a battling 6th in the Anzac Trot.  might need to get back to Rolleston ? 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

With 5 x Group 1's features up for grabs tonight , is the changing of the guard with NO Allstars win's from their 9 runners.

Ever since SWAYZEE reduced the mighty Allstars barn to 2nd place in the last 2 New Zealand Cups (Akuta and Don't Stop Dreaming) the once great team is racing for 2nd place more than for the Win , for near the past 2 years now. 

NINE stable runners tonight on a Feature Race card and NO wins achieved.

Congrats to ALL their fantastic main rivals Trainers for all the Big wins . Dalgety's (Messenger) Cullens (Oaks) Dunns ( Anzac trotting Cup) Barry and Scott (Trotters Derby) and Regan Todd for the extraordinary win by budding champ MARKETPLACE (in the GN Derby by 7 lengths.)

those 5 x  terrific training teams All continuing their fantastic run of success over past 2 years .

for the record ALLstars were tonight  (2nd in both 2 year old young gun races + 2 unplaced runners as well ) 5th in Oaks, balloted right out of trotting Derby, 2nd in pacing Derby, 7th in Messenger and old stable warrior OscarB just a battling 6th in the Anzac Trot.  might need to get back to Rolleston ? 

Gamma, think the training establishment at Rolleston wouldnt be compatible with all the residential property owners that will be living there!

Good to see the spoils being shared around though.

Didnt watch many of the races tonight, Addington had more appeal punting wise!

Did look at a few tote pools from time to time, they appeared to be very light for the stake money offered, so pretty sure it will be another unprofitable meeting?

[Gammalite]

9 hours ago, Brodie said:

Good to see the spoils being shared around though.

Didnt watch many of the races tonight, Addington had more appeal punting wise!

Did look at a few tote pools from time to time, they appeared to be very light

People don't waste their punting dollar like they used too Brodster. I'm a big supporter of NZ harness and didn't put much on.

and when you see what happened to Muscle Mountain ( stupid standing start stuff once again destroying a race) you wouldn't bet on that with stolen money.

The racing was terrific as usual though , and you missed seeing 2 of the best NZ has racing stride to victory in Marketplace ( breaking the track record in his 7 lengths win ) and Republican Party with one of your fav's Carter Dalgety driving a great race and taking the spoils. At great punting Appeal too drawn the Ace.

so you miss out on all the South Island glory by not being open to investment with all those lovely South Island winners at the'' Ribbon of Light'

A simple   1 - 1 - 1  multi from the pole draws for a Tenner.  Arafura (Oaks) - Marketplace (Derby) - Republican Party (Messenger ) = $400 for 10 bucks mate. 

Let's face it Brodie old mate, you have lost your punting touch Brodster if scratching around Addington with the 'slow' horses looking for a quid 🤣😂😂  makes the collects a bit slow too lol 😉

[Brodie]

18 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

People don't waste their punting dollar like they used too Brodster. I'm a big supporter of NZ harness and didn't put much on.

and when you see what happened to Muscle Mountain ( stupid standing start stuff once again destroying a race) you wouldn't bet on that with stolen money.

The racing was terrific as usual though , and you missed seeing 2 of the best NZ has racing stride to victory in Marketplace ( breaking the track record in his 7 lengths win ) and Republican Party with one of your fav's Carter Dalgety driving a great race and taking the spoils. At great punting Appeal too drawn the Ace.

so you miss out on all the South Island glory by not being open to investment with all those lovely South Island winners at the'' Ribbon of Light'

A simple   1 - 1 - 1  multi from the pole draws for a Tenner.  Arafura (Oaks) - Marketplace (Derby) - Republican Party (Messenger ) = $400 for 10 bucks mate. 

Let's face it Brodie old mate, you have lost your punting touch Brodster if scratching around Addington with the 'slow' horses looking for a quid 🤣😂😂  makes the collects a bit slow too lol 😉

Ii is good to have racing for the better class horses, for good stake money.

I just find it far easier and preferable to wager on looser class racing and that is where the money is to be made.

Reality is that most of the winners of the bigger stakes races continue to come from Canterbury.

Would be interesting to see the betting figures for Auckland as I believe fewer punters are bothering betting up there.

The turnover figures are inflated due to the bonus cash being given back.

From all the extra advertising that the TAB is doing, is it attracting new punters or extra wagering?

[Blackie]

Looked like thousands turned away at Alex Park.

Meanwhile, NZ Metro was going off with The Warriors playing next door straight after. Maybe thats the way ahead, combining events and feeding off one another. Food for thought

[Muzza]

2 hours ago, Blackie said:

Looked like thousands turned away at Alex Park.

Meanwhile, NZ Metro was going off with The Warriors playing next door straight after. Maybe thats the way ahead, combining events and feeding off one another. Food for thought

Gotta have the required admin nous first.

[Newmarket]

It always did amaze me how much work some runners could do during a race, yet still win in record time. 
So are they still involved with below? 

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

It always did amaze me how much work some runners could do during a race, yet still win in record time. 

Obviously you are new to the Sport.  I've seen horses doing it for 55 years.  The difference is with better breeding there are more able to do it.  The Bettor's Delight influence has been significant.

[Newmarket]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Obviously you are new to the Sport.  I've seen horses doing it for 55 years.  The difference is with better breeding there are more able to do it.  The Bettor's Delight influence has been significant.

Not sure you follow much harness….. I understand race times are getting faster most years, but w

hat I am saying is  that a particular stable that once had horses racing 3 wide winning, can no longer do this, and remember some previous unreal performances were run by 2nd tier nags. Forget the bettors delight theory, I’m more interested in the info I have supplied, are they still involved with this ?

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Not sure you follow much harness….. I understand race times are getting faster most years, but w

hat I am saying is  that a particular stable that once had horses racing 3 wide winning, can no longer do this, and remember some previous unreal performances were run by 2nd tier nags. Forget the bettors delight theory, I’m more interested in the info I have supplied, are they still involved with this ?

What you are inferring is that the All Stars had some magical advantage.   What I'm saying is that factually that doesn't hold up and also the gap between a lot of trainers has closed.  Also contrary to your assertion the partnership between Mark and Nathan Purdon is performing at a similar level to the other partnerships that Mark has had with a smaller number of horses.

In the 2024 season they still picked up $2.2m in stakes with a UDR of 0.3745.  They were 2nd in the 2023 Trainers Premiership with 83 wins, a UDR of 0.4572 which was miles ahead of everyone else and over $3m in stakes.  Their stakes winnings was $1m more than the Dunns who won the Premiership.

So I need to correct myself - they do seem to be as dominant as always.  They just don't have the same number of horses.

[Rangatira]

9 hours ago, Brodie said:

Would be interesting to see the betting figures for Auckland as I believe fewer punters are bothering betting up there.

I am more interested in seeing the new lights at The Watu.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

I am more interested in seeing the new lights at The Watu.

Wheres the Watu?

[Rangatira]

12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Wheres the Watu?

250k south of Taupo. (for non trotting folk)

A Tick over 500k from The Ribbon of Light.

About 370k from The Bridge

Edited April 26 by Rangatira

[Gammalite]

1 minute ago, Rangatira said:

250k south of Taupo.

 

13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Wheres the Watu?

Ranga has lost his Mana ?   what happened young fella ? follow too many Brodster Tips ? 🤣😋

 

[Rangatira]

8 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

 

Ranga has lost his Mana ?   what happened young fella ? follow too many Brodster Tips ? 🤣😋

 

Old Money Bags increased the price of his 0900 number so I'm rudderless until Centerlink come through.

[Gammalite]

1 minute ago, Rangatira said:

Old Money Bags increased the price of his 0900 number so I'm rudderless until Centerlink come through.

oh well , at least they are still in business and supporting the industry there at the links .

you might get your 'Mana' back at the 'Watu' if you visit there?  😉 . One things for sure is you that won't find the Brodster hanging around there 🤣. 

[Nowornever]

Doesn't seem real !Greg Sugars passed away last night?
https://www.facebook.com/larajayfarm
 

[Withadream2]

9 hours ago, Blackie said:

Looked like thousands turned away at Alex Park.

Meanwhile, NZ Metro was going off with The Warriors playing next door straight after. Maybe thats the way ahead, combining events and feeding off one another. Food for thought

I was there and it was certainly a successful promotion. A lot of the people attending were not regular race goers & many may have been there for the first time.  Unfortunately it may be difficult to pull off that promotion in future once the new stadium opens in the CBD. 

[the galah]

17 hours ago, Newmarket said:

It always did amaze me how much work some runners could do during a race, yet still win in record time. 
So are they still involved with below? 

I agree with you.

I think its just illogical to suggest the all stars trainers have lost any of theiir skills.

Mark purdon is still the person who most would call nz's best trainer.

The fact that the all stars aren't currently dominating to the extent they once were,i would have  thought made many realise that there was truth in what people like newmarket and i have been saying in the past. That is,part of the winning formula ,was access to treatments which enhanced performance,whicv others didn't have.

you know people like chief can point to udr's and stakes and whatever,but chief will always defend them because its what he does.He would die on that hill before acknowledging what everyone can see.But even gammalite appears to be acknowledging the obvious and hes always been such a fan. I'm sure he still is.

They are still the same great trainers.

But it was always just rubbish ,when people like mick guerin or others would tell us,they are simply on a level that others will never reach. That was always a load of rubbish,the top trainers in nz are all capalle of achieving with the right horses. Mark purdon was the top of that group,and he should still be viewed that way.

My theory as to the timing of the drop off in complete dominance has been it may have links with the new york cases and to some extent initially supply chains due to covid. . I say that because,as i started threads on beofre,a very high profile ownert of mark purdons,who used to use his media platform to attack jeff gural,was listed on the laist of clients of the vet who supplied all the performance enhnacers to the trainers. Why did jeff gural specifically leave his nameon the list of clients,when he redracted most.

Also,his all stars highest level of dominance came when ms rasmussen was there,and i think her skill were a definite factor,but also she had contacts as well.

The surprising thing i've noticed in the last year is rthere seems to be one stable that seems to be able to get horses from the likes of the all stars and improve their performances. Not just them ,also from another couple of leading stables.I can see why the owners who demanded success at all stars ,would be changing stables going by the results.

Edited April 26 by the galah

[Newmarket]

7 hours ago, the galah said:

I agree with you.

I think its just illogical to suggest the all stars trainers have lost any of theiir skills.

Mark purdon is still the person who most would call nz's best trainer.

The fact that the all stars aren't currently dominating to the extent they once were,i would have  thought made many realise that there was truth in what people like newmarket and i have been saying in the past. That is,part of the winning formula ,was access to treatments which enhanced performance,whicv others didn't have.

you know people like chief can point to udr's and stakes and whatever,but chief will always defend them because its what he does.He would die on that hill before acknowledging what everyone can see.But even gammalite appears to be acknowledging the obvious and hes always been such a fan. I'm sure he still is.

They are still the same great trainers.

But it was always just rubbish ,when people like mick guerin or others would tell us,they are simply on a level that others will never reach. That was always a load of rubbish,the top trainers in nz are all capalle of achieving with the right horses. Mark purdon was the top of that group,and he should still be viewed that way.

My theory as to the timing of the drop off in complete dominance has been it may have links with the new york cases and to some extent initially supply chains due to covid. . I say that because,as i started threads on beofre,a very high profile ownert of mark purdons,who used to use his media platform to attack jeff gural,was listed on the laist of clients of the vet who supplied all the performance enhnacers to the trainers. Why did jeff gural specifically leave his nameon the list of clients,when he redracted most.

Also,his all stars highest level of dominance came when ms rasmussen was there,and i think her skill were a definite factor,but also she had contacts as well.

The surprising thing i've noticed in the last year is rthere seems to be one stable that seems to be able to get horses from the likes of the all stars and improve their performances. Not just them ,also from another couple of leading stables.I can see why the owners who demanded success at all stars ,would be changing stables going by the results.

Agree….

Im not sure if they are still involved with this or not. Yeah Chief is a nice chap, but he runs to HRNZ site to see the stables UDR, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. 
Been some real changes with stable last few years, crazy. 

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Agree….

Im not sure if they are still involved with this or not. Yeah Chief is a nice chap, but he runs to HRNZ site to see the stables UDR, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. 
Been some real changes with stable last few years, crazy. 

Really?  They still outperforming everyone with stakes earnt.

[Chief Stipe]

On 27/04/2025 at 10:08 AM, the galah said:

The fact that the all stars aren't currently dominating to the extent they once were,i would have  thought made many realise that there was truth in what people like newmarket and i have been saying in the past. That is,part of the winning formula ,was access to treatments which enhanced performance,whicv others didn't have.

But your theory falls over when the facts are looked at i.e. their season stakes won and the number of winners per starters.  You also ignore the fact that other trainers are doing better.  I presume according to your theory they have access to "stuff" that the All Stars don't!  

On 27/04/2025 at 10:08 AM, the galah said:

you know people like chief can point to udr's and stakes and whatever,but chief will always defend them because its what he does.He would die on that hill before acknowledging what everyone can see.But even gammalite appears to be acknowledging the obvious and hes always been such a fan. I'm sure he still is.

Well you have one foot in the grave on that hill and are still casting aspersions without any facts or evidence.  Not every can see something that isn't there - except you of course.

On 27/04/2025 at 10:08 AM, the galah said:

But it was always just rubbish ,when people like mick guerin or others would tell us,they are simply on a level that others will never reach. That was always a load of rubbish,the top trainers in nz are all capalle of achieving with the right horses. Mark purdon was the top of that group,and he should still be viewed that way.

He still is at that level however he is transitioning the Purdon IP to another generation while he himself pulls back from the slog of training.  As @Gammalite would attest and as I have experienced training horses is a very mentally and phyiscally demanding occupation requiring very very long hours.

On 27/04/2025 at 10:08 AM, the galah said:

My theory as to the timing of the drop off in complete dominance has been it may have links with the new york cases and to some extent initially supply chains due to covid. . I say that because,as i started threads on beofre,a very high profile ownert of mark purdons,who used to use his media platform to attack jeff gural,was listed on the laist of clients of the vet who supplied all the performance enhnacers to the trainers. Why did jeff gural specifically leave his nameon the list of clients,when he redracted most.

We've discussed this at length but you have a conspiracy theory and like most consipiracists will not waver from it even in the face of facts.  THERE HAS BEEN NO NEW SPECIAL PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUG discovered in the New York cases even after the seizing of a vast amount of drugs.  The New York cases were all based around mail fraud/mislabelling and the illegal use of known drugs prior to compeitition without notification.  HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO TELL YOU THIS?  You have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary.

On 27/04/2025 at 10:08 AM, the galah said:

Also,his all stars highest level of dominance came when ms rasmussen was there,and i think her skill were a definite factor,but also she had contacts as well.

What contacts?  Blair Orange?  Are these contacts the recreational drug users that were nabbed during INCA?

On 27/04/2025 at 10:08 AM, the galah said:

The surprising thing i've noticed in the last year is rthere seems to be one stable that seems to be able to get horses from the likes of the all stars and improve their performances. Not just them ,also from another couple of leading stables.I can see why the owners who demanded success at all stars ,would be changing stables going by the results.

Again the facts don't support your assertion.

 

[Gammalite]

I think you see some valid points through the ideas.

Newmarket posted one of the treatments that posters at this site didn't like years ago, early in this thread . and seems rightly so,  as the method is going to be regulated .

Make no mistake that the best horses around get the best most expensive treatments. Chief and Galah argue often about where the 'gear' comes from . and availability. well that is up to each Trainer.

All horses get some treatments of one type or another , just like any racer under stress . E.g those crazy cyclists in Europe that perform super human feats day after day in the Grand tours. Many like Lance Armstrong are caught out eventually via one method or another if breaking prescribed rules and limits. same for horses. (or their trainers) 

All these NZ harness trainers are fine horsemen (and women) who most have been doing horses all their lives . They are always going to be competitive, even as the next generation catches up. They are working hard at it 7 days a week , and quite a few stables are Sharing the Limelight at present. 

ALLSTARS have won stacks of races , especially across the generation that included Natalie Rasmussen. Now they have shifted location and structure and persons working the horses, things change. Not just the treatments.

so with this thread the figures (race results)  are showing , that you can now Bet against the Allstars , and get a run for your money nearly all the time now. 

I respect their past results and always used to take them in my selections.  but am currently quite happy to bet against them now.

Didn't include any of their (ALLSTARS) nine runners in my bets at Auckland on Anzac Day so thought their aura is over as have been a big fan and often took their runners as anchors.  they didn't win a race , and the great stables that Won the 5 x Group 1's Friday  are well and truly' up in their photo finishes now.       

[Taku Umanga]

15 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

We've discussed this at length but you have a conspiracy theory and like most consipiracists will not waver from it even in the face of facts. 

Speaking of conspiracy theories, does anybody know the reason for Beside Me's disqualification at Nelson in January not being publicised anywhere?

 

[Chief Stipe]

So the All Stars have the best UDR of the top 5 stables and are first equal on stakes won so far this year.  Yeah Na they haven't crashed.

So if you agree with @the galah 's conspiracy I guess the All Stars still have the good stuff!  😉 😜 

Yeah Na - a load of bollocks that falls over on one key point.  With all the testing and modern technology available the RIB have found zilch.