End of Allstars dominance confirmed

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So the All Stars have the best UDR of the top 5 stables and are first equal on stakes won so far this year.  Yeah Na they haven't crashed.

No they haven't Crashed crashed in a crash and burn  Chiefy. It's just they are not winning the features like they used to.

Still good bucks being earned . 'Chase A Dream' a great 2nd in the BETCHA million recently to 'Leap To Fame' .

but horses like VESSEM , good enough for 2nd in the NZ Derby in December for example just had the 2 x 3 yearold wins, and as a 4 yearold this year has come back with 2 wins from 7 starts and $34,000 . very modest by previous Allstar standards.   

DEMON BLUE , good enough for 2nd to Marketplace in a Group 1 ACE race in November, back now as a 3 year old has zero wins from 5 starts and is struggling to keep up. 

Even the very best Allstars runners Oscar B trotting , with one win from 4 starts since returning from Oz ( and that win was a 5 horse field) is getting beat.  and best Pacer Chase A Dream Only has one (1)  win from his last 8 starts, and was beaten in both the BIG race features at Addington in the Velocity and the NZ Derby.  

you can bet against their horses now. 

The Allstars stable not winning like they used too. The racing is Great still though !!! well done NZ harness. 

[Rangatira]

On 26/04/2025 at 9:41 PM, Withadream2 said:

I was there and it was certainly a successful promotion. A lot of the people attending were not regular race goers & many may have been there for the first time.  Unfortunately it may be difficult to pull off that promotion in future once the new stadium opens in the CBD. 

Drop in track in Latimer Square? 

[Newmarket]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So the All Stars have the best UDR of the top 5 stables and are first equal on stakes won so far this year.  Yeah Na they haven't crashed.

So if you agree with @the galah 's conspiracy I guess the All Stars still have the good stuff!  😉 😜 

Yeah Na - a load of bollocks that falls over on one key point.  With all the testing and modern technology available the RIB have found zilch.

How can you compare All Stars to Michael House? That is totally ridiculous, as I have mentioned stay away from the HRNZ info…. take notice of those that watch NZ Harness every week. All Stars have so many owners paying big money for nags, crazy to compare.

[Newmarket]

15 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

No they haven't Crashed crashed in a crash and burn  Chiefy. It's just they are not winning the features like they used to.

Still good bucks being earned . 'Chase A Dream' a great 2nd in the BETCHA million recently to 'Leap To Fame' .

but horses like VESSEM , good enough for 2nd in the NZ Derby in December for example just had the 2 x 3 yearold wins, and as a 4 yearold this year has come back with 2 wins from 7 starts and $34,000 . very modest by previous Allstar standards.   

DEMON BLUE , good enough for 2nd to Marketplace in a Group 1 ACE race in November, back now as a 3 year old has zero wins from 5 starts and is struggling to keep up. 

Even the very best Allstars runners Oscar B trotting , with one win from 4 starts since returning from Oz ( and that win was a 5 horse field) is getting beat.  and best Pacer Chase A Dream Only has one (1)  win from his last 8 starts, and was beaten in both the BIG race features at Addington in the Velocity and the NZ Derby.  

you can bet against their horses now. 

The Allstars stable not winning like they used too. The racing is Great still though !!! well done NZ harness. 

Great post Gamma….

Their young horses no longer dominate like they used to. I see Equine Blood Solutions seem to be no longer operating🤔

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

How can you compare All Stars to Michael House? That is totally ridiculous, as I have mentioned stay away from the HRNZ info…. take notice of those that watch NZ Harness every week. All Stars have so many owners paying big money for nags, crazy to compare.

FFS the All Stars have reduced the number of horses in training and still pick up most of the Stakes.

LOL House isn't anywhere near dominant other than at The Watu.

[the galah]

On 28/04/2025 at 2:24 PM, Chief Stipe said:

But your theory falls over when the facts are looked at i.e. their season stakes won and the number of winners per starters.  You also ignore the fact that other trainers are doing better.  I presume according to your theory they have access to "stuff" that the All Stars don't!  

Well you have one foot in the grave on that hill and are still casting aspersions without any facts or evidence.  Not every can see something that isn't there - except you of course.

He still is at that level however he is transitioning the Purdon IP to another generation while he himself pulls back from the slog of training.  As @Gammalite would attest and as I have experienced training horses is a very mentally and phyiscally demanding occupation requiring very very long hours.

We've discussed this at length but you have a conspiracy theory and like most consipiracists will not waver from it even in the face of facts.  THERE HAS BEEN NO NEW SPECIAL PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUG discovered in the New York cases even after the seizing of a vast amount of drugs.  The New York cases were all based around mail fraud/mislabelling and the illegal use of known drugs prior to compeitition without notification.  HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO TELL YOU THIS?  You have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary.

What contacts?  Blair Orange?  Are these contacts the recreational drug users that were nabbed during INCA?

Again the facts don't support your assertion.

 

i don't get the blair orange reference.not sure whether its got something to do with my having posted before a few times that i believe he is the gold standard for skill and always trying 100% of the time,when it comes to drivers.

I always make up my own mind about things based on what i see.

as to your other comments,we been over that before a few times,and i don't think currently,we're ever likely to convince the other, anymore than in the past.

so,should i debate you this time  on your other points.

No,as to quote the great philosopher,lord edward blackadder the second,debating you would be like a broken pencil. pointless.

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

i don't get the blair orange reference.not sure whether its got something to do with my having posted before a few times that i believe he is the gold standard for skill and always trying 100% of the time,when it comes to drivers.

I always make up my own mind about things based on what i see.

as to your other comments,we been over that before a few times,and i don't think currently,we're ever likely to convince the other, anymore than in the past.

so,should i debate you this time  on your other points.

No,as to quote the great philosopher,lord edward blackadder the second,debating you would be like a broken pencil. pointless.

Well hard to argue with make believe.  You disagree with fact.  

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

i don't get the blair orange reference.not sure whether its got something to do with my having posted before a few times that i believe he is the gold standard for skill and always trying 100% of the time,when it comes to drivers.

So your oblique reference earlier to drug use had nothing to do with INCA?

[Rangatira]

On 26/04/2025 at 7:26 PM, Gammalite said:

you might get your 'Mana' back at the 'Watu' if you visit there?  😉 . One things for sure is you that won't find the Brodster hanging around there 🤣. 

Its very bright Gamma, I was comfy with the old darker set up. If I was venturing on course I would need to be assured that there was no police presence. 

[Gammalite]

47 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

Its very bright Gamma, I was comfy with the old darker set up. If I was venturing on course I would need to be assured that there was no police presence. 

You're All good to go mate. You're not in Country Victoria so should be safe . and INCA has been called off NZ there so Police not interested in the slightest with the good old Manawatu trots.

Forbury's is saying Don't back the 'Dickie'  Bird though  , driving Telfers tomorrow. better dodge him then.  

So I'm ALL -In on a few Crystal Hackett - Harrison Orange Quinella's instead. 

The new mana bright lights will help me find the right window to collect at .👍💰🍞

[Rangatira]

11 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

The new mana bright lights will help me find the right window to collect at .👍💰🍞

Was round the back when I last collected.

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:11 AM by Rangatira

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

Was round the back when I last collected.

 

Found it  thanks. Looks like one of the Brodsters TIPS just got the money too. Fair few collecting .👍😂

reminds me of when you could back the Allstars with confidence. 💰😋

[TAB For Ever]

My take on the apparent lowering of All Stars standards and success is this....

The key to All Stars dominance was that the principal cog in the machine was the boss Mark Purdon.

A great worker , dedicated to excellence , a great selector of young horses an eye for detail....real X factor ! The 'master ' horseman purchased and was offered the top horses around.

Then he was joined by a another X factor horsewoman Natalie who was also , like Mike , a great driver !

These two ruthlessly sorted out their young stock early on to ensure they only filled their stables with horses who could race at the top level. Often they had 5 or 6 top horses per age group while most others had 1 or 2..

Their decision to split and some of 'interesting' partnerships that resulted have weakened the brand and reputation and with Mark obviously being less involved some of their bigger owners have placed some well bred horses with younger and rival trainers.

So often now you see just one All Star horse in a Group race when years ago there was regularly 3 or 4.

Examples of this in recent weeks have been plentiful.

The Kennards have horses with R Todd and other young trainers, the Dunfords have 2 x horses who have moved  recently to the Cullens and the Kennys of Adore Me etc family are with Dalgety . Sure the bigger breeders like Kennys [ Woodlands] and Breckons need to support trainers who support them but when Mark is based in Matamata with a couple of Harness horses plus training gallopers while the bulk of Allstars in Pukekohe Owners must be encouraged to invest in these other good young trainers !

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

My take on the apparent lowering of All Stars standards and success is this....

The key to All Stars dominance was that the principal cog in the machine was the boss Mark Purdon.

A great worker , dedicated to excellence , a great selector of young horses an eye for detail....real X factor ! The 'master ' horseman purchased and was offered the top horses around.

Then he was joined by a another X factor horsewoman Natalie who was also , like Mike , a great driver !

These two ruthlessly sorted out their young stock early on to ensure they only filled their stables with horses who could race at the top level. Often they had 5 or 6 top horses per age group while most others had 1 or 2..

Their decision to split and some of 'interesting' partnerships that resulted have weakened the brand and reputation and with Mark obviously being less involved some of their bigger owners have placed some well bred horses with younger and rival trainers.

So often now you see just one All Star horse in a Group race when years ago there was regularly 3 or 4.

Examples of this in recent weeks have been plentiful.

The Kennards have horses with R Todd and other young trainers, the Dunfords have 2 x horses who have moved  recently to the Cullens and the Kennys of Adore Me etc family are with Dalgety . Sure the bigger breeders like Kennys [ Woodlands] and Breckons need to support trainers who support them but when Mark is based in Matamata with a couple of Harness horses plus training gallopers while the bulk of Allstars in Pukekohe Owners must be encouraged to invest in these other good young trainers !

So in a nutshell what you are saying is the "perceived drop in dominance" is due to less hands-on involvement by Mark Purdon, the loss of input from Nat Rasmussen and lower quality bloodstock due to it being spread around more. 

All makes sense.  Although even with those challenges the Mark and Nathan partnership has been going not too badly - high stakes to runners return and a leading UDR.

[Gammalite]

9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

My take on the apparent lowering of All Stars standards and success is this....

The key to All Stars dominance was that the principal cog in the machine was the boss Mark Purdon.

A great worker , dedicated to excellence , a great selector of young horses an eye for detail....real X factor ! The 'master ' horseman purchased and was offered the top horses around.

Then he was joined by a another X factor horsewoman Natalie who was also , like Mike , a great driver !

These two ruthlessly sorted out their young stock early on to ensure they only filled their stables with horses who could race at the top level. Often they had 5 or 6 top horses per age group while most others had 1 or 2..

Their decision to split and some of 'interesting' partnerships that resulted have weakened the brand and reputation and with Mark obviously being less involved some of their bigger owners have placed some well bred horses with younger and rival trainers.

So often now you see just one All Star horse in a Group race when years ago there was regularly 3 or 4.

Examples of this in recent weeks have been plentiful.

The Kennards have horses with R Todd and other young trainers, the Dunfords have 2 x horses who have moved  recently to the Cullens and the Kennys of Adore Me etc family are with Dalgety . Sure the bigger breeders like Kennys [ Woodlands] and Breckons need to support trainers who support them but when Mark is based in Matamata with a couple of Harness horses plus training gallopers while the bulk of Allstars in Pukekohe Owners must be encouraged to invest in these other good young trainers !

exactly it. and the major brand of Allstars officially retired with that Big Auckland Cup Quinella 4 years ago with Amazing Dream. The commentator even saying at the end of that contest. "Thanks for the memories ".

Hayden Cullen then tried to run the ship , but had limited success before defecting to Telfers. Now doing quite well branching out on his own from there ( with help from wifey )  won the Group 1 NZ Derby Dec and the GN Oaks just last week. 

Mark did a great job for decades , after winning the Interdominion for his dad Roy and brother Barry with Mark Hanover at Auckland in the early 90's. what a champ he has been. A 'Job well done'  retirement looming large. 

Lately just trying to get/keep his son Nathan (as well as those old millionaire owners that don't really need any more success lol 😂)  well established in the game .Nathan must do most of the hands on. Olivia T even left them and went to Cullens to try and get some drives.  

Wonder what happened to son Michael ? he had the one trotter 'Mystic Max' he races/trains. Wonder why does No other horses? or helps Allstars? while he has the star 'golden dad' opportunity. 

[the galah]

While i accept the argument that mark purdon being hands on every day was  significant,i personally don't place as much weight on the views that because he hasn't been there full time,it has equated to what even his most loyal supporters seem to agree,is a slight drop off in results.

That,in other words,is implying that his son and his staff,many of whom have worked for that stable for some time,are not as capable. For example they haveb had staff like  blair orange working there recently and he of course he had previously worked for mark purdon for a decade.

And then you have the horses that the stable is racing in auckland in recent times,,presumably under the surpervision of mark purdon. its not like mark purdon won't be hands on for those horses while they campaign in auckland.

The sales purchasers factor makes sense to a degree,but that argumentbeing put forward seems to be,because they haven't been quite as active in the last 3-4 years,that they don't have the numbers to dominate on the same scale. Well if that was applicable then they may not be dominating numbers wise,but they should still have what they have being able to run like they used to wwhen rasmussen was thwere,but they have no horses that have the run forever look to them now.

Another aspect being argued is natalie rasmussen was such a great driver. Well thats true. But shes not as good as blair orange and hes been there stable driver recently.

So,i think if you stood back and took a fair minded balanced view of where that stable is at,you would say,yes the above mentioned factors do come into play,but no they aren't the complete picture.

The complete picture would factor in what i have given as what i think is the main reason.

also,i would say if you don't accept what i put forward as the main reason,then perhaps consider the drop off in form associated with another trainer that had the same connections hen the all stars were at that dominant level. Have you seen any of his horses having the run forever look to them,or have you seen any of those come from another stable and win first up at addington by 18 lengths these days?

all stables go through runs also.  

The difference between what we were seeing 5 years ago and what we see today is the all stars don't have the run forever look to them. That doesn't come from training.

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:44 PM by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

34 minutes ago, the galah said:

So,i think if you stood back and took a fair minded balanced view of where that stable is at,you would say,yes the above mentioned factors do come into play,but no they aren't the complete picture.

The complete picture would factor in what i have given as what i think is the main reason.

You don't give up @the galah I'll give you that.  To cut to the chase you are suggesting that the All Stars used PED's to maintain their dominance and now they are not.  Is that correct?

Contrary to your view they are still performing at a high level.  You refuse to understand the statistics supporting that.

As for PED's there has been no evidence found to support your assertion   I don't understand why you aren't arguing that the stables that are supposedly dominant now ARE using PED's.

I agree with @TAB For Ever and @Gammalite that if they aren't as dominant (I dont' agree) then it is because of the factors they have listed.  It only takes a 1% drop in perfomance to be well down the track.  If Mark isn't in the stable full time as he once was then that alone could accout for the 1%.  Yes Nathan has been trained well no doubt BUT until you are in charge fulltime you are not tested.  I've seen countless examples of where changes in Trainers have seen a drop in performance.  For example one could argue that with Mark Walker now working more and more at the Melbourne stable there has been a drop in the Te Akau dominance.  It may be only slight but it doesn't take much at the elite level.

As for undetectable PED's - check this out:  https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.analchem.1c01273

That technology has been around for decades.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

You don't give up @the galah I'll give you that.  To cut to the chase you are suggesting that the All Stars used PED's to maintain their dominance and now they are not.  Is that correct?

they are still performing at a high level. 

i agree with both the above.

 

[Brodie]

Great to have a debate on various topics and BOAY does it so much better than other sites.

It is fine to have differing opinions on things and that is what makes a debate.

All Stars seem to be more in the North Island now with Mark and Nathan up there and Michael still at Rolleston from what I can see?

Personally think that it is far better for racing when one or two stables arent dominating the feature races and it is shared around abit as it ks very hard for the smaller stables to now compete at the highest level.

Yes All Stars are competing well and have a good UDR but from where I am sitting in front of Trackside, their horses are no where near as good as what they were overall, when they were winning 6 or 7 races on Cup Day.

The way the All Stars horses were going when Mark was training in partnership with Nat Rasmussen was far superior to what they are currently.

Yes they had big paying owners and they still do, it was just a golden era for the All stars stable of runners, and may never be repeated again in NZ!

 

[paleface adios]

3 hours ago, Brodie said:

Great to have a debate on various topics and BOAY does it so much better than other sites.

It is fine to have differing opinions on things and that is what makes a debate.

All Stars seem to be more in the North Island now with Mark and Nathan up there and Michael still at Rolleston from what I can see?

Personally think that it is far better for racing when one or two stables arent dominating the feature races and it is shared around abit as it ks very hard for the smaller stables to now compete at the highest level.

Yes All Stars are competing well and have a good UDR but from where I am sitting in front of Trackside, their horses are no where near as good as what they were overall, when they were winning 6 or 7 races on Cup Day.

The way the All Stars horses were going when Mark was training in partnership with Nat Rasmussen was far superior to what they are currently.

Yes they had big paying owners and they still do, it was just a golden era for the All stars stable of runners, and may never be repeated again in NZ!

 

When is that white arrow  fella  going to be dominant again

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

The way the All Stars horses were going when Mark was training in partnership with Nat Rasmussen was far superior to what they are currently.

@Brodie it was the dream team when you look at Mark's and Nat's experience and achievements.  Both natural horseman and from what I've learnt a big part of training horses is being tuned to the horse.  Not only in training but also in a race.  Hard to replicate what those two had.

Mark and Nat had different styles of driving and full credit to them they recognised that and they selected the right horses to drive for their style.

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

i agree with both the above.

 

Then you are wrong about one of them.

[mikeynz]

 

What does Nat Rasmussan do these days.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, mikeynz said:

 

What does Nat Rasmussan do these days.

I've always wondered if BOAY needed a gossip columnist.  Are you available @mikeynz?

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

@Brodie it was the dream team when you look at Mark's and Nat's experience and achievements.  Both natural horseman and from what I've learnt a big part of training horses is being tuned to the horse.  Not only in training but also in a race.  Hard to replicate what those two had.

Mark and Nat had different styles of driving and full credit to them they recognised that and they selected the right horses to drive for their style.

When they were training in partnership at the peak of their powers, their horses could do just about anything, and other stable horses couldnt replicate.

Often they would have horses sitting parked and under the bat on the corner and they would come again and win!

Was in tight class racing as well, that is not happening now!