Musings...

[Newmarket]

Must be easy, p4p already telling everyone how his buys are going in the future

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Kopia said:

Can someone explain something to me...lets say you are are one man band in racing, train a few of your own etc...and you get hold of a horse with some potential. You're not gst registered so you can't claim gst on your purchases. You're not a 'trainer' you don't claim expenses or declare a 'profit' because your'e not doing the horses as a 'business'. So you manage to sell the horse that showed potential. You make..say $40k in round figures...over all of your expenses. So why would you be expected to pay anything to the govt? Your endeavour, you took the risk..?

lets say you are a handy bloke about the place and buy a property to rent.  As you go along you tidy it up , paint it, sort out the gardens fences and driveways.  Not because you are in it for a quid but because you enjoy that sort of thing as a hobby.  Then sometime down the track inflation does its work and someone comes along and wants to buy it off you at a very good profit.  

Why should CGT catch you?

Or for that matter some bloke who buys an old car and restores it?

Racing is not the only 'hobby' that might be caught out.  Stamp collectors for instance as well.  What people will need to be wary of is not carefully recording their costs.  So if you pay cash for your hay and cash to the breaker, cash to the girl who rides it work and cash to your mate who owns a float then sell the horse at a big profit the department is not going to be too keen to accept 'cash' expenses as a cost of the animal.  Same with the do up house or the classic car.

There could well be an exemption though for horses - especially if you think back to Big Dave buying King's Road for $1.75m and him winning $20k or so.  That is quite a big capital loss.  Not sure what he spent in the last month on horses but say it is $10m - the law of averages says they will earn perhaps $3m in stakes between the lot of them  - 'cant have everyone treating their horse ownership as a business now can we?' says the IRD 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Reefton

[Brando]

9 hours ago, JJ Flash said:

It wasn't a poor sale if you listen to all the NZB and Te Akau blurb. I'm with you Freda, based on numbers it was a poor sale and a serious level below recent overseas sales notably MM.

The numbers say it all , lower median at 100K,poor clearance rate at 77% cf MM 90%.Congrats to new owner of Cambridge who sold 100% and Waikato who blitzed the sale in most categories

Only 2 NZ based stallions in Top 10 by average.

You should be congratulating the ex owner of Cambridge Stud for getting out at the right time. Luck of the Irish continues! ?

For one of the big 2 premier studs, to not even make the Top 10 Vendors by average is unthinkable.

The prominent Cambridge Stud female families are now last decade's news. Meanwhiles, Tavistock who was championed by many as "the next big thing" of the NZ stallions rank, finished outside the Top 10 Sires by Average at $134,925 off a $65,000 stud fee - with low points having lots sold at Festival Sale prices of $10,000 and $15,000. ?

 

[MaltedMilkshake]

11 hours ago, Mark D said:

If the gaming duty is reduced and the "industry" funnels that directly and totally into increased stakes it will only exacerbate the problem.  Need to make betting on horses attractive to punters to create long term revenue increases.

For that to happen we need good competitive horses ridden competently...and for our race programming to fit the need of horses...and most importantly, policed with full, unswerving tenacity....but that’s all too hard.

[Vanturk]

8 hours ago, Brando said:

You should be congratulating the ex owner of Cambridge Stud for getting out at the right time. Luck of the Irish continues! ?

For one of the big 2 premier studs, to not even make the Top 10 Vendors by average is unthinkable.

The prominent Cambridge Stud female families are now last decade's news. Meanwhiles, Tavistock who was championed by many as "the next big thing" of the NZ stallions rank, finished outside the Top 10 Sires by Average at $134,925 off a $65,000 stud fee - with low points having lots sold at Festival Sale prices of $10,000 and $15,000. ?

 

congratulating the ex owner for getting out? are you for real? you think the new owner  wont succeed  like its previous owner?  

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, Brando said:

You should be congratulating the ex owner of Cambridge Stud for getting out at the right time. Luck of the Irish continues! ?

For one of the big 2 premier studs, to not even make the Top 10 Vendors by average is unthinkable.

The prominent Cambridge Stud female families are now last decade's news. Meanwhiles, Tavistock who was championed by many as "the next big thing" of the NZ stallions rank, finished outside the Top 10 Sires by Average at $134,925 off a $65,000 stud fee - with low points having lots sold at Festival Sale prices of $10,000 and $15,000. ?

 

Interesting the Tavistocks seem to be one hit wonders.  Sure some have early on grabbed Grp races but they all seem to not carry on past that ending up with problems that stop them racing.

[Rowley Mile]

1 hour ago, Vanturk said:

congratulating the ex owner for getting out? are you for real? you think the new owner  wont succeed  like its previous owner?  

Absolutely!....they sacked the wrong stallion for a start, and I wouldn't have the Pom anywhere near my joint, his take on bloodstock in my view is questionable and I'm being kind......ex Darly......why? They are best payers on Gods earth......a job for life, if you are good enough, a new broom? I don't think so.......The Savabeel's sell themselves, even Jacinta could sell a Savabeel.......lets see shall we, say 2 years down the track? 

[Vanturk]

6 minutes ago, Rowley Mile said:

Absolutely!....they sacked the wrong stallion for a start, and I wouldn't have the Pom anywhere near my joint, his take on bloodstock in my view is questionable and I'm being kind......ex Darly......why? They are best payers on Gods earth......a job for life, if you are good enough, a new broom? I don't think so.......The Savabeel's sell themselves, even Jacinta could sell a Savabeel.......lets see shall we, say 2 years down the track? 

so after 2 years  you think there gonna bail out do you?

[Rowley Mile]

No Vanturk, not bail out, they have too much moula to have to do that, damage control yes!.......it will be there for all to see........history repeats,  The sales would have been a disaster without Savabeel, the figures are distorted because of him, it was the same with Zabeel and before him Sir Tristram........Cambridge rely on Tavistock, he's going south, Waikato are saved by a champion sire, Sir Pat was the same....legends.......and wonderful staff and he was hands on.......and although the Lindsays are probably lovely folk, they have to lean heavily on advice......see you in two years Vanturk.

[Freda]

I hope they don't have to give homes to Age of Fire and Embellish......and Highly Recommended needs a few more goals sometime soon.

At least there is Almanzour....

[Reefton]

Losing Savabeel really does not bear thinking about for the NZ Breeding industry but it will happen one day and the irrelevance of the NZ industry(internationally) will really come home to roost.

But since this thread is called 'musings' I will have a 'musing' of my own about one thing I would consider to try to start getting the horrendous costs out of the game.

Why could we not go back to the days when the Clubs ran their own tote operations?  One of the big planks of Messara and co is cutting the costs of the TAB's operations and oncourse costs have to be a significant part of that.  I do not see why Clubs could not band together to run their own totes and if history is any proof they(well some of them - the Coast ones for a start) will run it a bloody sight cheaper  than the TAB does.  They seem to get into on-course sound systems and providing communications that are peripheral to their actual responsibilities and role and I see no reason why we could not provide that sort of thing ourselves(and for that matter the pictures as well - in this day and age that gear gets cheaper and cheaper and better and better as well so what is to stop us doing it ourselves and supplying it to Trackside?)

even employing the commentators(within reason of course)

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Reefton

[Rowley Mile]

Brian, when you bring in 'guns for hire' like NZRB/TB did, and in some cases middle management at best, mediocrity or luck is all you could wish for, and wish for they did.

Whoever signed off on the loans [Peter to pay Paul] should have to answer to a Parliamentary committee, it was irresponsible and ill thought.

Yes, taking back Tote ops to the clubs is a bloody good option, but it seems no one wants to listen to good bright and innovative ideas.

Petone is a protected animal, there is no or little confidence anymore, only from the Northern Cartel, and their agenda is clear, nothing being hidden there......sadly the industry in NZ is doomed, brought to it's knees by high salaried clueless sycophants, mostly in suits that will never ever own and operate their own business's.......for various reasons. Those people need the eagle to land each week/month and deposit, John Allen is an oxygen thief, the bullshit is endless, and I've said it before....those that believe their own bullshit are dangerous, very!

God help you good burgers, as you say Brian, if Savabeel goes tits up, disaster.......because the buyers bench will look very empty indeed, and racing for 10k will become 7 again.....and so on......I wonder how the thousands of good/great racing folk in the Nth of the South Island feel, that glorious weather, those beautiful tracks, and tourists by the thousands......an absolute wasted resource......it's just so bloody sad.

Rowley.

[Reefton]

52 minutes ago, Rowley Mile said:

Brian, when you bring in 'guns for hire' like NZRB/TB did, and in some cases middle management at best, mediocrity or luck is all you could wish for, and wish for they did.

Whoever signed off on the loans [Peter to pay Paul] should have to answer to a Parliamentary committee, it was irresponsible and ill thought.

Yes, taking back Tote ops to the clubs is a bloody good option, but it seems no one wants to listen to good bright and innovative ideas.

Petone is a protected animal, there is no or little confidence anymore, only from the Northern Cartel, and their agenda is clear, nothing being hidden there......sadly the industry in NZ is doomed, brought to it's knees by high salaried clueless sycophants, mostly in suits that will never ever own and operate their own business's.......for various reasons. Those people need the eagle to land each week/month and deposit, John Allen is an oxygen thief, the bullshit is endless, and I've said it before....those that believe their own bullshit are dangerous, very!

God help you good burgers, as you say Brian, if Savabeel goes tits up, disaster.......because the buyers bench will look very empty indeed, and racing for 10k will become 7 again.....and so on......I wonder how the thousands of good/great racing folk in the Nth of the South Island feel, that glorious weather, those beautiful tracks, and tourists by the thousands......an absolute wasted resource......it's just so bloody sad.

Rowley.

Sadly I think you are right.  I really cannot see how the game is going to survive - there is simply too much quality product coming in from offshore(and rightly so) and too many halfwits running the show and pissing the dosh up against the wall.

And these studs are going to really get wound up when the inevitable collapse happens.  It just makes you sick but not sure what viable options are left to fix it.  Relying on politicians of either side is hopeless - they are that paranoid about making decisions and copping the blame any action is years down the track(and it will then be more of the same BS because they have to consult the consultants) 

And we have the Nats all on the bandwagon to save the courses after years of the worst Racing Minister we have ever seen on their watch.

I wonder why I bother worrying about it.

 

[MaltedMilkshake]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

I hope they don't have to give homes to Age of Fire and Embellish......and Highly Recommended needs a few more goals sometime soon.

At least there is Almanzour....

And they got rid of Power....the only son of Oasis Dream in NZ as S/casing won’t be coming back...and they’ve held on to Burgundy.....but I guess that’s a political decision...down similiar road to Age of Fire (FR...yuk!!) and Embellish...?

[nomates]

5 hours ago, Rowley Mile said:

Brian, when you bring in 'guns for hire' like NZRB/TB did, and in some cases middle management at best, mediocrity or luck is all you could wish for, and wish for they did.

Whoever signed off on the loans [Peter to pay Paul] should have to answer to a Parliamentary committee, it was irresponsible and ill thought.

Yes, taking back Tote ops to the clubs is a bloody good option, but it seems no one wants to listen to good bright and innovative ideas.

Petone is a protected animal, there is no or little confidence anymore, only from the Northern Cartel, and their agenda is clear, nothing being hidden there......sadly the industry in NZ is doomed, brought to it's knees by high salaried clueless sycophants, mostly in suits that will never ever own and operate their own business's.......for various reasons. Those people need the eagle to land each week/month and deposit, John Allen is an oxygen thief, the bullshit is endless, and I've said it before....those that believe their own bullshit are dangerous, very!

God help you good burgers, as you say Brian, if Savabeel goes tits up, disaster.......because the buyers bench will look very empty indeed, and racing for 10k will become 7 again.....and so on......I wonder how the thousands of good/great racing folk in the Nth of the South Island feel, that glorious weather, those beautiful tracks, and tourists by the thousands......an absolute wasted resource......it's just so bloody sad.

Rowley.

 

4 hours ago, Reefton said:

Sadly I think you are right.  I really cannot see how the game is going to survive - there is simply too much quality product coming in from offshore(and rightly so) and too many halfwits running the show and pissing the dosh up against the wall.

And these studs are going to really get wound up when the inevitable collapse happens.  It just makes you sick but not sure what viable options are left to fix it.  Relying on politicians of either side is hopeless - they are that paranoid about making decisions and copping the blame any action is years down the track(and it will then be more of the same BS because they have to consult the consultants) 

And we have the Nats all on the bandwagon to save the courses after years of the worst Racing Minister we have ever seen on their watch.

I wonder why I bother worrying about it.

 

As i said on the other thread this is what you get when you have people with no actual hands on experience making decisions both in regards the racing  side and then the gambling side , JA would have never dipped in his pocket and had a bet and i would put money on this , poker with matchsticks doesn't count . The IT people that have produced the new FOB turkey are in the same boat but also the people who have been making decisions at the TAB for numerous years now , they just have no feel or understanding for the game , NONE , NONE , NONE . Saying that we have no one to blame but ourselves , from the owners assn to the trainers assn to the individual clubs and breeders , theyall sat on their hands , could never get together for the sake of the industry , too much self interest , too many individuals feathering their own beds so didn't want to rock the boat . Even now when the ship is already tilting no one prepared to say " right whatever happens i / we are going to take one for the team " . Every one that counts still not prepared to rock the boat in case it hurts them .

[Freda]

9 minutes ago, nomates said:

 

As i said on the other thread this is what you get when you have people with no actual hands on experience making decisions both in regards the racing  side and then the gambling side , JA would have never dipped in his pocket and had a bet and i would put money on this , poker with matchsticks doesn't count . The IT people that have produced the new FOB turkey are in the same boat but also the people who have been making decisions at the TAB for numerous years now , they just have no feel or understanding for the game , NONE , NONE , NONE . Saying that we have no one to blame but ourselves , from the owners assn to the trainers assn to the individual clubs and breeders , theyall sat on their hands , could never get together for the sake of the industry , too much self interest , too many individuals feathering their own beds so didn't want to rock the boat . Even now when the ship is already tilting no one prepared to say " right whatever happens i / we are going to take one for the team " . Every one that counts still not prepared to rock the boat in case it hurts them .

Yep.

[Huey]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Interesting the Tavistocks seem to be one hit wonders.  Sure some have early on grabbed Grp races but they all seem to not carry on past that ending up with problems that stop them racing.

I think the industry is finding they are like his sire are slow maturing stock despite the one great season he had.

[Huey]

8 hours ago, Rowley Mile said:

Absolutely!....they sacked the wrong stallion for a start, and I wouldn't have the Pom anywhere near my joint, his take on bloodstock in my view is questionable and I'm being kind......ex Darly......why? They are best payers on Gods earth......a job for life, if you are good enough, a new broom? I don't think so.......The Savabeel's sell themselves, even Jacinta could sell a Savabeel.......lets see shall we, say 2 years down the track? 

Yes he did come across a bit odd on the Bred to Win special on the tv.

[Rowley Mile]

This is probably in the wrong thread, however, Malo Blik, ran 3rd just now at NP........a great advertisement for a noble steed, honest as the day is long. 13 starts, 12 cheques, about 23k in prize money.........how sad is that, how bloody embarrassing !........he could have earned 3 times that at least in Oz.......his owners obviously don't need the money, may love to just see him run, and that's why the inhabitants of a certain building in Petone hold their jobs......racings disgrace, the prize money at the levels they are, and yet the salaries at HQ are a blight on the industry.....an underperforming industry rewarding the major players in ADMIN with a salary most of you could only dream of.....tears we cry!

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Rowley Mile said:

This is probably in the wrong thread, however, Malo Blik, ran 3rd just now at NP........a great advertisement for a noble steed, honest as the day is long. 13 starts, 12 cheques, about 23k in prize money.........how sad is that, how bloody embarrassing !........he could have earned 3 times that at least in Oz.......his owners obviously don't need the money, may love to just see him run, and that's why the inhabitants of a certain building in Petone hold their jobs......racings disgrace, the prize money at the levels they are, and yet the salaries at HQ are a blight on the industry.....an underperforming industry rewarding the major players in ADMIN with a salary most of you could only dream of.....tears we cry!

Preaching to the converted mate , but when the people within this industry who hold some sort of power aren't prepared to make a stand for the battler's what chance for the small folk . I for one would happily sit down and talk to the powers that be and give them some of life's realities at the grass roots , but would they listen to me or others like me not a hope .

[Rowley Mile]

To be fair Nomates, who would employ them? you wouldn't, I wouldn't, there would be plenty of poor buggers on the floor there where it's no fault of theirs the parlous state of racing, you would excuse those poor souls, they must cringe come Monday morning when the suits on those salaries strut though the door........a penny for what they think?.........until performance based employment contracts are introduced to that place mediocrity will reign........#shame.

[The Centaur]

On 1/02/2019 at 9:28 AM, Chief Stipe said:

Interesting the Tavistocks seem to be one hit wonders.  Sure some have early on grabbed Grp races but they all seem to not carry on past that ending up with problems that stop them racing.

Tavistock has had 26 current 3yo or 2yo's that have raced in NZ. Accepted some have been exported but even so from 26 you would expect some progressives.

Well of those 26 in NZ  NONE n.b. none have earned more than $12,000 and none have won more than one race. Thats not slow maturing thats like motionless. Most on appearance are plain and often look weak. Pity the buyers who pay the six figures.

[nomates]

57 minutes ago, Rowley Mile said:

To be fair Nomates, who would employ them? you wouldn't, I wouldn't, there would be plenty of poor buggers on the floor there where it's no fault of theirs the parlous state of racing, you would excuse those poor souls, they must cringe come Monday morning when the suits on those salaries strut though the door........a penny for what they think?.........until performance based employment contracts are introduced to that place mediocrity will reign........#shame.

Agree , but should never be employed in first place as very few have any sort of racing knowledge and i'm talking even basic understanding of racing . As far as salaries go i always choke when i hear that we have to pay salaries that match the private sector to be able to attract the right people , well that stratagy has been a failure for well over a decade. Same in the public service , the private sector expects results to match the large salaries . I know someone that has worked under JA , not the post office , they have pretty much the same attitude regarding him as the majority of racing participants . There is absolutely no accountability at either NZRB or NZTR . I honestly would love to spend 2 hours with any of them . Would be the most fun i've had in years .

[Weasel]

16 hours ago, The Centaur said:

Tavistock has had 26 current 3yo or 2yo's that have raced in NZ. Accepted some have been exported but even so from 26 you would expect some progressives.

Well of those 26 in NZ  NONE n.b. none have earned more than $12,000 and none have won more than one race. Thats not slow maturing thats like motionless. Most on appearance are plain and often look weak. Pity the buyers who pay the six figures.

Tavistock had such a stellar start here, his fee went up very quickly; he is leaving plenty of winners but now the pressure is on to sustain the number of black type performers. The stud will be hoping like hell he leaves another Derby, Oaks or WFA winner soon. No Tavistock female Group 1,2 or 3 winners in NZ yet; his oldest crop are 7yo. I believe there's at least one maybe two Oz-trained Tavis on a Derby raid (incl a Busuttin/Young one called Murless) and two or three girls on an Oaks path.

The Tavistock fillies/mares appear to be getting better as they get older, esp the sprinter-milers.

 TAVISTOCK NZ SEASON 2018-19 WINNERS (2/2/19)

30 races won; 23 individual winners, 0  Group wins ; 1 Listed win (Tomelilla - Haunui Farm Karaka Classic)

·         23 wins by girls, 7 by boys

·         18 wins @ 1000m -1400m

·         8  wins @1500 -1600m

·         4 middle distance wins (2000m -2100m; 2 of them by Shantav @ Gore)

·         0 x 2yo winners (only 1 runner) ; 7 x 3yo winners (6 of them fillies)
          19 of the 30 wins are from 5yo or older (incl 6 wins from his first crop, ie 7yos) 

·         Only 4 (of 30) wins have been beyond 1600m this season so far

·         Girls outperforming the boys, ratio of 3:1

·         Winners mostly from older sprinter-miler mares

·         A winner over 1000m on debut (Times Ticking) ..the first in the last 3 seasons, maybe the first ever in NZ

[MaltedMilkshake]

6 hours ago, Weasel said:

Tavistock had such a stellar start here, his fee went up very quickly; he is leaving plenty of winners but now the pressure is on to sustain the number of black type performers. The stud will be hoping like hell he leaves another Derby, Oaks or WFA winner soon. No Tavistock female Group 1,2 or 3 winners in NZ yet; his oldest crop are 7yo. I believe there's at least one maybe two Oz-trained Tavis on a Derby raid (incl a Busuttin/Young one called Murless) and two or three girls on an Oaks path.

The Tavistock fillies/mares appear to be getting better as they get older, esp the sprinter-milers.

 TAVISTOCK NZ SEASON 2018-19 WINNERS (2/2/19)

30 races won; 23 individual winners, 0  Group wins ; 1 Listed win (Tomelilla - Haunui Farm Karaka Classic)

·         23 wins by girls, 7 by boys

·         18 wins @ 1000m -1400m

·         8  wins @1500 -1600m

·         4 middle distance wins (2000m -2100m; 2 of them by Shantav @ Gore)

·         0 x 2yo winners (only 1 runner) ; 7 x 3yo winners (6 of them fillies)
          19 of the 30 wins are from 5yo or older (incl 6 wins from his first crop, ie 7yos) 

·         Only 4 (of 30) wins have been beyond 1600m this season so far

·         Girls outperforming the boys, ratio of 3:1

·         Winners mostly from older sprinter-miler mares

·         A winner over 1000m on debut (Times Ticking) ..the first in the last 3 seasons, maybe the first ever in NZ

The Tavistock story is interesting....all the best to date,  have come from “give away” service fees...I think the 3yo crop were $15k ( Yarners will correct me if I’m wrong) ...and the younger crops were $65k. 

Not sure on numbers covered in 2018 so it will be good to see the stats when released at the end of Feb.  With Cambridge needing to support Almanzor, I think the direction of Tavistock’s future fee (in the event there are no Classic performers over the Autumn) will come under discussion...

But to be fair to Tavistock, Per Incanto has a similar story...he went from $4 to $15K for their debut racing year. Very successful on the track plus good yearling sales profile in the first couple of years.  Am interested to do the stats re higher priced seasons.....