Corentin Berge?

[Newmarket]

Rode Charlbury in the first at Te Rapa today. Didnt have a bet in race but thought it would be in the money, small field, soft track over 2400m, conditions suited. 
 

Now jockey had horse 3 wide trip, just happy to sit there, as expected horse gasping before turn. Just wondering what others think regarding ride? If i was owner be a bit peeved. 

[curious]

5 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Rode Charlbury in the first at Te Rapa today. Didnt have a bet in race but thought it would be in the money, small field, soft track over 2400m, conditions suited. 
 

Now jockey had horse 3 wide trip, just happy to sit there, as expected horse gasping before turn. Just wondering what others think regarding ride? If i was owner be a bit peeved. 

Why? Gave it a nice smooth trip. Got it relaxed and breathing. Horse didn't get the trip and it's the jockey's fault?

Edited April 25 by curious

[Newmarket]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Why? Gave it a nice smooth trip. Got it relaxed and breathing. Horse didn't get the trip and it's the jockey's fault?

Horse finished 12L from winner, horse travelling 3 wide trip on large track over 2400m travels between 6L - 10L more than others?

So if your saying no disadvantage, why dont jockeys stay 3 wide every race? We know the answer….

[curious]

27 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Horse finished 12L from winner, horse travelling 3 wide trip on large track over 2400m travels between 6L - 10L more than others?

So if your saying no disadvantage, why dont jockeys stay 3 wide every race? We know the answer….

Ever watched any races in the UK, US, or elsewhere? Where do you get the 6-10l from? And what does it matter if the horse is relaxed and breathing going not much more than 3/4 pace most of the way (aerobic) in a 2400m race? You are sounding like a sore loser. Complete BS. How many races, trials,  jumpouts or even trackwork have you ridden?

[Newmarket]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Ever watched any races in the UK, US, or elsewhere? Where do you get the 6-10l from? And what does it matter if the horse is relaxed and breathing going not much more than 3/4 pace most of the way (aerobic) in a 2400m race? You are sounding like a sore loser. Complete BS. How many races, trials,  jumpouts or even trackwork have you ridden?

Ha Ha Ha, your a fool. I dont have to ride to know a horse travelling 3 wide goes further than those inside. So are you saying that is not true🤣🤣🤣

Contact NZTR , get them to send out memos to all jockeys, state that being 3 wide is a good option, as long as horse is relaxed, any owners or trainers complaining, contact Curious. 
 

I never had a bet at NZ racing today, so where do you get sore loser from? 
 

 

[Shab]

Defo the wider you go round the further you travel. Thats just fact. Might give you other advantages. You look like a genius if it works and a useless bugger if it doesn't. Some like Nash can get it to work better than others.

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Ha Ha Ha, your a fool.

If you are goung to call someone a fool at least get your spelling correct.  It is "you're a fool" not "your a fool".

10 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Horse finished 12L from winner, horse travelling 3 wide trip on large track over 2400m travels between 6L - 10L more than others?

You need to take some geometry lessons.  How did you calculate the 10 lengths?  You are suggesting the horse travelled 30m further by being 3 wide on the bends which is the only time it would travel further?

I agree with @curious that over a distance it is better to settle and relax your horse than worry too much about being 3 wide.  If you get caught wide you only have two options use gas and go forward and risk your horse not settling or pull your horse up and go back to the rear of the field.  Again the latter risks unsettling your horse but it also means you have to make up 10 lengths and improve wide covering more ground at the end of the race.

I'd go for the settled and relaxed three wide every time.  The going back strategy cost a friend of mine a Grp 1 and a HOTY.

[Chief Stipe]

To save you time @Newmarket doing the calculation.  

if we take a hypothetical track that is 2000 meters in length and has 400m straights and equal radius bends at both ends then 1200m of a 2000m race will be on the bends.

The radius will be 191m.  The circumference is c = 2 x pi x r = 2 x 3.14159 x 191 = 1200.  So if a horse sits 3 wide then the radius is 191 + 3 = 194.   The distance travelled 3 wide = 1219m i.e. 19m more than the horses on the fence and 9m more than the 2 wide horse.

Now to maintain its position the horse 3 wide is going to have to go about a second faster (6 lengths) than the horse on the rail.  The Jockeys Dilemma is do I stay put and keep my horse relaxed and hope the pace slackens and I can ease forward or do I go back to the rear to save 9m and hope they don't sprint home quicker than I can.  

BTW 10 lengths equals 25 metres.

In my opinion the top Jockeys never give up ground especially if they spent gas to get it.  In your example the Jockey made the best decision the fact is the horse didn't stay and wasn't good enough.

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, Shab said:

Defo the wider you go round the further you travel. Thats just fact. Might give you other advantages. You look like a genius if it works and a useless bugger if it doesn't. Some like Nash can get it to work better than others.

He is better at it than JMac.  In my opinion Rawiller is one of the best judges of pace AND settling a horse into a rhythm.

[Newmarket]

Here ate a better example of distances travelled on Te Rapa track. Your coin toss statistics over 2000, well we know it was over 2400m, in a 7 horse field. 
Tycoon Star raced 3 wide without cover and won, couldnt say it was a good ride, just a better horse racing lower class opposition. 
Hopefully jockeys dont read this, especially in sth island, last thing punters want is horses racing 3 wide the trip. 
Lets see how many win next couple days 🤣🤣

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Here ate a better example of distances travelled on Te Rapa track. Your coin toss statistics over 2000, well we know it was over 2400m

Your copied data is exactly the same as my calculation using Archimedes equation developed in 200BC.

As for the race being 2400m the extra distance travelled is the same for 2000m, 2200m and 2400m as they only go round once.  If you hadn't noticed the 2400m starts down a chute.

The bends as a percentage of the race distance reduces from 60% at 2000m to 50% at 2400m.

Regardless the Jockeys Dilemma is still, do I relax my horse and EASE forward when I can or do I risk unsettling it and pull back. 

I gather you haven't ridden or driven much.

42 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Hopefully jockeys dont read this, especially in sth island, last thing punters want is horses racing 3 wide the trip. 

The last thing punters want is their punt losing.  Racing 3 wide doesn't necessarily mean it will lose.

I wish more Jockeys would understand the tradeoff between sitting wide and reefing their horse backwards.  If they did we might see better racing at Ellerslie.

[billy connolly]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Racing 3 wide doesn't necessarily mean it will lose.

Racing 3 wide without cover (especially over a distance when a half-baked jockey has ample time to get closer to rail) not only destroys the horse's chance, it also guarantees it a hard run which will take longer to recover from, but you'd need to have sat on a few 3-wide losers to recognise this fact.

If John Walker had have negotiated the track 3 lanes out from the inside the day he won the 1500 metre Olympic gold at Montreal he would have finished where Berge's mount finished yesterday.
 

[Chief Stipe]

52 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

Racing 3 wide without cover (especially over a distance when a half-baked jockey has ample time to get closer to rail) not only destroys the horse's chance, it also guarantees it a hard run which will take longer to recover from, but you'd need to have sat on a few 3-wide losers to recognise this fact.

Depends on the pace of the race and the distance.  If you get posted 3 wide and the pace is slack ease forward.  Going back is giving up.

[Newmarket]

2 hours ago, billy connolly said:

Racing 3 wide without cover (especially over a distance when a half-baked jockey has ample time to get closer to rail) not only destroys the horse's chance, it also guarantees it a hard run which will take longer to recover from, but you'd need to have sat on a few 3-wide losers to recognise this fact.

If John Walker had have negotiated the track 3 lanes out from the inside the day he won the 1500 metre Olympic gold at Montreal he would have finished where Berge's mount finished yesterday.
 

At last common sense….

[Chief Stipe]

56 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

At last common sense….

So should Bruno have gone back in this race?

 

[Murray Fish]

57 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

At last common sense….

nope! it's Good Sense that is Needed!

Albert Einstein famously defined common sense as "the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen". He viewed it as a set of habitual, ingrained, and often limiting beliefs rather than a source of truth, arguing that it should not be applied to complex or unconventional scientific, or life, decisions.

[Chief Stipe]

So did Warren Kennedy make the right decision to go back?  The pattern was stack-em up and sprint from the turn.

 

[Newmarket]

What was wrong with his ride? Gave it every chance, 2nd & 3rd had every chance, not good enough. 

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

What was wrong with his ride? Gave it every chance, 2nd & 3rd had every chance, not good enough. 

Once again you prove you are crap at analysis.  I said the pattern of the day was to stack-em and sprint home.  In the context of this discussion going back achieved nothing as the third horse had to travel 3 and 4 wide on the bend to improve anyway.  Ironically that fact supports your argument.  BTW the first 400m was nearly 5 seconds SLOWER than the last 400m.

Not only did the third horse cover extra distance it also ran the fastest last 800m, 600m, 400m and 200m.  2.5 lengths quicker than the winner while also covering extra ground.  The sectional between the 400m and the 200m was 10.7 seconds (even with Kennedy losing and recovering an iron).  That time has been rarely matched at Ellerslie especially by a 2 yr old.

Going back 5 lengths to still sit 3 wide was a mistake.  A mistake that the majority of riders still make at Ellerslie.

[curious]

7 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Your copied data is exactly the same as my calculation using Archimedes equation developed in 200BC.

As for the race being 2400m the extra distance travelled is the same for 2000m, 2200m and 2400m as they only go round once.  If you hadn't noticed the 2400m starts down a chute.

The bends as a percentage of the race distance reduces from 60% at 2000m to 50% at 2400m.

Regardless the Jockeys Dilemma is still, do I relax my horse and EASE forward when I can or do I risk unsettling it and pull back. 

I gather you haven't ridden or driven much.

The last thing punters want is their punt losing.  Racing 3 wide doesn't necessarily mean it will lose.

I wish more Jockeys would understand the tradeoff between sitting wide and reefing their horse backwards.  If they did we might see better racing at Ellerslie.

Totally agree.

[curious]

6 hours ago, billy connolly said:

Racing 3 wide without cover (especially over a distance when a half-baked jockey has ample time to get closer to rail) not only destroys the horse's chance, it also guarantees it a hard run which will take longer to recover from, but you'd need to have sat on a few 3-wide losers to recognise this fact.

If John Walker had have negotiated the track 3 lanes out from the inside the day he won the 1500 metre Olympic gold at Montreal he would have finished where Berge's mount finished yesterday.
 

Were you a half-baked jockey to be making remarks like that?

[Shad]

I’m with bill on his summary of the 3 wide theory,and I reckon he’d have a much better idea than most, those 3 wide runs do knock a horse around, an for every one that can achieve it, there is heck of a lot that can’t, just watch a harness horse that tried it 2 wide, stopping with 800m to go, did see one earlier that managed to over come a run similar, 

[Shad]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

So should Bruno have gone back in this race?

 

 

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

So should Bruno have gone back in this race?

 

Wasn’t she retired not long after.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Shad said:

Wasn’t she retired not long after.

If you are suggesting because of that particular race then you'd be wrong.

[hesi]

It's a dam shame horses can't talk.  Would put to bed a lot of debate lol

Much the same argument, coming 10 wide on the turn and an uninterrupted run down the outer, versus riding for gaps closer in and risk losing momentum.