"It is not bad, it is actually appalling."

[Rangatira]

Trainers unhappy with handicapping system

 

Trainer Mark Purdon nominated Princess Tiffany for the Easter Cup recently to display his frustrations with the country’s handicapping system.PHOTO: SUPPLIED.

Harness racing trainers from across New Zealand have slammed the country's handicapping system, and claim it has been ruining the careers of young horses.

 

Mark Jones, Phil Williamson, Mark Purdon and John Price all told the Otago Daily Times (ODT) the careers of young horses were being hindered because the current handicapping system favours multiple race-winning, older horses too much.

Williamson said that extra opportunities to race those older horses came at the expense of developing young stock.

"The older stock can keep racing, but it is probably at the expense of the younger horses coming through."

The Oamaru trotting ace said there were only two options to protect young horses from racing battle-hardened horses that have won multiple races.

"The young horses - the 2 and 3yr-olds - it is hard to race them in this system.

"Because if you win a race, [the horse is] put in to such a tough rating that you can't race them.

"It's either sell them or you can't race.

"A champion can probably overcome it, it probably won't hurt them, because they are just star horses.

"But for the most part, most of the young horses [that] come out at 2 and 3, if they get in the rating system past a maiden, it is just crazy tough."

 

Mark Purdon

Purdon knows plenty about training champions, and that means his horses are rated much differently to the bulk of New Zealand trainers and those who spoke to the ODT on this issue.

 

Despite that, he still had the same concerns his training counterparts did.

Purdon has been so appalled by the state of the current ratings system he nominated Princess Tiffany for the Easter Cup to demonstrate how it treated young horses.

"She has won two races as a 3yr-old filly, and her assessment dictated that she had to race in the Easter Cup.

"That is how appalling the system is.

"It is not bad, it is actually appalling.

"You would wonder how many brains they have got to come up with a system like that where you really hurt young horses."

Purdon agreed with his training colleagues and said the current structure of the rating system effectively promoted the sale of young horses overseas.

Jones said the lack of pathways for up-and-coming horses to learn their trade against like competitors has developed into a sad situation for harness racing.

"When I go to the races now, probably the happiest person I see is the person that has run second in the maiden trot.

"The most disappointed one is the winner, because they think `where the hell do I go now?'.

"They are actually disappointed to win a race that and that is not the way it should be.

"If you have a one-win trotter rated 55, you could be racing horses that have won seven or eight races."

Williamson said that it was clearly a fault of the system when so many young horses become instantly uncompetitive after winning their maiden.

"A horse that wins a maiden race, it then becomes non-competitive at its next start, which I think is not a good thing.

"If you are in winning form you should be able to go to your next start and be competitive, but you are not.

"The owners get a win and think their horses are going great, but I have to say to them hold on, next week if we race we won't be competitive."

Jones said the handicapping of 2yr-olds was so dire that he was advising owners to turn their horses out.

"I have 2-yr-olds now that I am telling my owners to turn them out, because if they win a race they are not going to be racing one-win races.

"I could have an average 2yr-old win an average maiden race and it would be rated higher than a horse that had won eight races.

"Why would you win a race at 2? If you do, you are buggered now.

"I am for a system that caters for lesser horses, because we have all got one of them."

Price said that running a horse down the track so that it could find a rating where it could be competitive was not an option every trainer or owner wants to take.

"The handicapping sub-committee say just race your horse until it drops back to where it is competitive.

"A lot of trainers and owners don't want to do that - you don't want to line up six or seven times to get it back to where it is competitive."

Williamson said running horses until they find a competitive rating goes against what he stands for as a trainer.

That meant horses were kept at home, instead of being out and racing.

"I like to go out there and win and win every race.

"It is hard enough to do, but the aim has got to be there, and the mindset has got to be we have got to be the best we can be.

"If you start driving those young ones that have only had two or three starts in that aggressive manner against horses that have had 60 starts, you are going to come undone."

Each of the trainers that spoke to the ODT said older, experienced horses coming down the ratings created a log jam in the 40-60 rating bracket.

Jones said that has been made worse by the removal of points for placings.

Penalising runners for running placing is considered a vital part of ratings-based handicapping systems used in horse racing codes across the world.

"Our system was designed to get placings," Jones said.

"But at the moment one is going up, four are staying the same and the rest are going down.

"I don't like a system that supports mediocrity and has an incentive to get beat, because it still costs owners money.

"I think the system they have bought on encourages you to be a hobby trainer and have a full time job.

"Us professional trainers are trying to get young horses up and get owners returns, but you can't even do that for them now."

Harness Racing New Zealand chief executive Peter Jensen told the ODT earlier this month that office was open to changing the ratings-based handicapping system for the betterment of the industry.

Jensen said he was aware of concerns trainers from across New Zealand had about the treatment of young and up-and-coming horses under the handicapping system.

The chief executive said improvements to the ratings system that allowed as many horses to race competitively was something to strive for.

"There is a process for reviewing the ratings system, so I don't think it is in a situation ... for good.

"We should be looking at where the opportunities are to continue to improve it.

"In my mind, the ratings system should be, as much as possible, about creating opportunities for horses to race.

"But also, creating even betting fields."

Jensen said concerns trainers and drivers had about the current system could be raised through their representation on the handicapping sub-committee.

The chief executive said any changes to the ratings system could not sacrifice one of its key aims - to provide even betting fields.

"If the ratings system can assist that, that makes good sense, as long as we are creating even betting races when we are doing that.

"What we don't want is dominant favourites as a result of changes to the ratings system.

"Part of the change in Australia - moving towards a ratings system - is because of the predominance of too many short priced favourites.

"None of us want that, it is not good for the industry and for turnover and margin."

 

https://www.odt.co.nz/sport/racing/trainers-unhappy-handicapping-system

Edited April 27, 2019 by Rangatira

[Happy Sunrise]

And the solution is........<drum roll>

?

[Flagship uberalles]

31 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

Trainers unhappy with handicapping system

 

Trainer Mark Purdon nominated Princess Tiffany for the Easter Cup recently to display his frustrations with the country’s handicapping system.PHOTO: SUPPLIED.

Harness racing trainers from across New Zealand have slammed the country's handicapping system, and claim it has been ruining the careers of young horses.

 

Mark Jones, Phil Williamson, Mark Purdon and John Price all told the Otago Daily Times (ODT) the careers of young horses were being hindered because the current handicapping system favours multiple race-winning, older horses too much.

Williamson said that extra opportunities to race those older horses came at the expense of developing young stock.

"The older stock can keep racing, but it is probably at the expense of the younger horses coming through."

The Oamaru trotting ace said there were only two options to protect young horses from racing battle-hardened horses that have won multiple races.

"The young horses - the 2 and 3yr-olds - it is hard to race them in this system.

"Because if you win a race, [the horse is] put in to such a tough rating that you can't race them.

"It's either sell them or you can't race.

"A champion can probably overcome it, it probably won't hurt them, because they are just star horses.

"But for the most part, most of the young horses [that] come out at 2 and 3, if they get in the rating system past a maiden, it is just crazy tough."

 

Mark Purdon

Purdon knows plenty about training champions, and that means his horses are rated much differently to the bulk of New Zealand trainers and those who spoke to the ODT on this issue.

 

Despite that, he still had the same concerns his training counterparts did.

Purdon has been so appalled by the state of the current ratings system he nominated Princess Tiffany for the Easter Cup to demonstrate how it treated young horses.

"She has won two races as a 3yr-old filly, and her assessment dictated that she had to race in the Easter Cup.

"That is how appalling the system is.

"It is not bad, it is actually appalling.

"You would wonder how many brains they have got to come up with a system like that where you really hurt young horses."

Purdon agreed with his training colleagues and said the current structure of the rating system effectively promoted the sale of young horses overseas.

Jones said the lack of pathways for up-and-coming horses to learn their trade against like competitors has developed into a sad situation for harness racing.

"When I go to the races now, probably the happiest person I see is the person that has run second in the maiden trot.

"The most disappointed one is the winner, because they think `where the hell do I go now?'.

"They are actually disappointed to win a race that and that is not the way it should be.

"If you have a one-win trotter rated 55, you could be racing horses that have won seven or eight races."

Williamson said that it was clearly a fault of the system when so many young horses become instantly uncompetitive after winning their maiden.

"A horse that wins a maiden race, it then becomes non-competitive at its next start, which I think is not a good thing.

"If you are in winning form you should be able to go to your next start and be competitive, but you are not.

"The owners get a win and think their horses are going great, but I have to say to them hold on, next week if we race we won't be competitive."

Jones said the handicapping of 2yr-olds was so dire that he was advising owners to turn their horses out.

"I have 2-yr-olds now that I am telling my owners to turn them out, because if they win a race they are not going to be racing one-win races.

"I could have an average 2yr-old win an average maiden race and it would be rated higher than a horse that had won eight races.

"Why would you win a race at 2? If you do, you are buggered now.

"I am for a system that caters for lesser horses, because we have all got one of them."

Price said that running a horse down the track so that it could find a rating where it could be competitive was not an option every trainer or owner wants to take.

"The handicapping sub-committee say just race your horse until it drops back to where it is competitive.

"A lot of trainers and owners don't want to do that - you don't want to line up six or seven times to get it back to where it is competitive."

Williamson said running horses until they find a competitive rating goes against what he stands for as a trainer.

That meant horses were kept at home, instead of being out and racing.

"I like to go out there and win and win every race.

"It is hard enough to do, but the aim has got to be there, and the mindset has got to be we have got to be the best we can be.

"If you start driving those young ones that have only had two or three starts in that aggressive manner against horses that have had 60 starts, you are going to come undone."

Each of the trainers that spoke to the ODT said older, experienced horses coming down the ratings created a log jam in the 40-60 rating bracket.

Jones said that has been made worse by the removal of points for placings.

Penalising runners for running placing is considered a vital part of ratings-based handicapping systems used in horse racing codes across the world.

"Our system was designed to get placings," Jones said.

"But at the moment one is going up, four are staying the same and the rest are going down.

"I don't like a system that supports mediocrity and has an incentive to get beat, because it still costs owners money.

"I think the system they have bought on encourages you to be a hobby trainer and have a full time job.

"Us professional trainers are trying to get young horses up and get owners returns, but you can't even do that for them now."

Harness Racing New Zealand chief executive Peter Jensen told the ODT earlier this month that office was open to changing the ratings-based handicapping system for the betterment of the industry.

Jensen said he was aware of concerns trainers from across New Zealand had about the treatment of young and up-and-coming horses under the handicapping system.

The chief executive said improvements to the ratings system that allowed as many horses to race competitively was something to strive for.

"There is a process for reviewing the ratings system, so I don't think it is in a situation ... for good.

"We should be looking at where the opportunities are to continue to improve it.

"In my mind, the ratings system should be, as much as possible, about creating opportunities for horses to race.

"But also, creating even betting fields."

Jensen said concerns trainers and drivers had about the current system could be raised through their representation on the handicapping sub-committee.

The chief executive said any changes to the ratings system could not sacrifice one of its key aims - to provide even betting fields.

"If the ratings system can assist that, that makes good sense, as long as we are creating even betting races when we are doing that.

"What we don't want is dominant favourites as a result of changes to the ratings system.

"Part of the change in Australia - moving towards a ratings system - is because of the predominance of too many short priced favourites.

"None of us want that, it is not good for the industry and for turnover and margin."

 

https://www.odt.co.nz/sport/racing/trainers-unhappy-handicapping-system

Pretty sure a two year old never used to be assessed at more than C1 after its 2yo year, no matter how many wins in the old handicapping system.

[Flagship uberalles]

4 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

And the solution is........<drum roll>

?

Export all stars to Australia? 

[Happy Sunrise]

There are a lot of frightening statements in that article that should send shivers down the spine of officials.

42 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

"I think the system they have bought on encourages you to be a hobby trainer and have a full time job.

 

6 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said:

"It's either sell them or you can't race.

 

6 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said:

"When I go to the races now, probably the happiest person I see is the person that has run second in the maiden trot.

 

7 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said:

A horse that wins a maiden race, it then becomes non-competitive at its next start, which I think is not a good thing.

 

[Happy Sunrise]

45 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

The chief executive said any changes to the ratings system could not sacrifice one of its key aims - to provide even betting fields.

"If the ratings system can assist that, that makes good sense, as long as we are creating even betting races when we are doing that.

"What we don't want is dominant favourites as a result of changes to the ratings system.

"Part of the change in Australia - moving towards a ratings system - is because of the predominance of too many short priced favourites.

"None of us want that, it is not good for the industry and for turnover and margin."

 

Who would have ever thought economics rules over everything else! lol

And maybe the views of the 'chief executive' echo what some of us say about the domination of a certain stable as they have short-priced favourites all the time in our biggest betting races as being detrimental to the industry. HOWEVER, I tend to see myself as a supporter of the trainers' views about the state of the system and its negative effects on certain types of horses.

I just think the arguments that have been had on here and formerly RC just go to show how polarising this can all be but essentially everyone is kind of right in their own way. 

All that is needed is a solution.  I want to see one put forward by these trainers! They must have good ideas to address it.

[Rangatira]

what we had was unfair and it seems what now have is unfair

some cleverer than myself is required

come in the brodster

Edited April 27, 2019 by Rangatira

[hunterthepunter]

big changes are needed old system was good  harness racing needs big changes for owners trainers and punters should start by getting rid of Riu get new stipes  and get rid of some of the hrnz staff 

[the galah]

 

Its understandable why the  high profile trainers are being pro active with the media in promoting their own interests, and the interests of those who support their stables.  Of course they should do that.  However we should not lose sight that they are looking at it from only their perspective.

We should not forget why the new handicapping system came into place ,nor forget those who benefited from the previous system. Some of the major benefactors of course were the very same people quoted in the article. 

For example did they ever speak up about the plight of the 1 win horses who consistently had to race 3 year olds who had won 5,6 & 7 races,or the non win horses who had to race the winners of multiple races. I never heard them call that appalling. 

   Why should we think they have an all inclusive view point now.. I think they would like to think they have,but I think they are showing understandable biased. As is the article..

Edited April 27, 2019 by the galah

[Happy Sunrise]

7 hours ago, the galah said:

For example did they ever speak up about the plight of the 1 win horses who consistently had to race 3 year olds who had won 5,6 & 7 races,or the non win horses who had to race the winners of multiple races.

Now it has flipped to the reverse.

I blink when I see a 1 win trotter who has only started in a couple of races suddenly being thrown in against horses who have been around for ages and won several races. You can just about put a pen through them as they have no chance.

I want these trainers to put a solution up in the media, forget about the normal channels, just get it out there for all to debate.

 

[LongOwner]

I am not a Mark Jones fan but alas I agree with him on one thing - the free ride for running 2-4th has in on move stuffed the rating system . The drop backs plus only a few moving forwards our fields are full of horse previously would of been retired 4 years ago .

A rating 40 horse should not deserve a start but if you want to go that low - never at Addington or Alexander Parks !

The system needs money and wins as a mixture as a base - a win at Forbury is half the performance as on at Addington on any night .

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, LongOwner said:

The system needs money and wins as a mixture as a base - a win at Forbury is half the performance as on at Addington on any night .

If a handicapping system is fair it should be the same across all venues.  Ok weight wins in Grp or Listed races more than others but don't involve money won.

Handicapping is about providing even fields which should be performance based NOT on money won.

Some Thoroughbred stakeholders believe a Saturday maiden win is worth more than midweek one.  That's utter nonsense.

 

[Rangatira]

back in the brodsters heyday there was no shortage of 2 and 3 yo races, many were stands with winners off marks

anyone one want to hear my ideas

i checked to see if "retarded race programmer" is available and it is so i have an out

[Happy Sunrise]

2 hours ago, LongOwner said:

a win at Forbury is half the performance as on at Addington on any night .

How dare you say that about my beloved Forbury! ?

A Raphoe win is a win anywhere...immortalised for all time! lol

[Brodie]

Seriously, it is a bit rich when Mr Purdon complains about the current system, and says that it is detrimental to 2 and 3 year olds!

Mr Purdon and the AllStars blatantly take the majority of the stakes available for 2 and 3 year olds in NZ, and he thinks it is unfair?????

He is kidding isn’t he?

[the galah]

21 hours ago, Brodie said:

Seriously, it is a bit rich when Mr Purdon complains about the current system, and says that it is detrimental to 2 and 3 year olds!

Mr Purdon and the AllStars blatantly take the majority of the stakes available for 2 and 3 year olds in NZ, and he thinks it is unfair?????

He is kidding isn’t he?

The stables who are complaining are the same stables who have no trouble getting owners and turn away clients.

You would think an alternative, for those complaining about the lack of suitable racing for 2 and 3 year olds,   would be for clubs to programme races limited to those age groups ,with reduced points applied to the winners.

Of course that was what clubs used to programme with the penalty free wins, but everyone used to withdraw their horses as soon as they saw an all stars runner in the field .

I agree with the brodster, in that  the all stars dominance, and the inability of any other stable to come within cooee of their success is the reason the all stars find themselves in the situation they do currently in respect of the handicapping system. Why do they expect sympathy?

  One or two stables may have the odd horse compete against them,but hardly ever can those horses sustain it for more than a year before they make the odd intermittent appearance running well below previous levels of competitiveness(e.g. sheriff).  Which only reinforces what everyone else thinks,that is unless you have an exceptional young horse, then you will  ruin your horse by taking on the all stars.  Why can't the all stars see that?

[Brodie]

Reality is that most of the connections with the AllStars stables don’t give a rats about anyone else in the industry apart from themselves!

The industry is in serious trouble in the years ahead of attracting new participants into the game, due to the dominance of the one stable!

Yes the topic is being brought up continuously, but the fact is that it is one of the biggest negative influences we currently have in regards to growing the industry!

Owners and trainers are totally getting the stitch and will fall by the wayside, and with no new owners coming thru, harness racing is stuffed!

 

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

 One or two stables may have the odd horse compete against them,but hardly ever can those horses sustain it for more than a year before they make the odd intermittent appearance running well below previous levels of competitiveness(e.g. sheriff).  Which only reinforces what everyone else thinks,that is unless you have an exceptional young horse, then you will  ruin your horse by taking on the all stars.  Why can't the all stars see that?

they probably like me think sheriff has feet issues

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Rangatira said:

 they probably like me think sheriff has feet issues

Feet issues. Whats that excuse number 33 in the  excuse book? 

Can you tell me what ever happened to the 2 McGrath runners who were being prepared for the nz cup the previous year.. Serious question.   Ears burning and classie brigade I think it was. Where did they get to, as after the pre cup media hype about being challengers to the all star barn, they have never been seen.

Edited April 29, 2019 by the galah

[Flagship uberalles]

41 minutes ago, the galah said:

Feet issues. Whats that excuse number 33 in the  excuse book? 

Can you tell me what ever happened to the 2 McGrath runners who were being prepared for the nz cup the previous year.. Serious question.   Ears burning and classie brigade I think it was. Where did they get to, as after the pre cup media hype about being challengers to the all star barn, they have never been seen.

Ears burning retired..... classy brigade not sure hasn't raced since last August.

[Rangatira]

12 hours ago, the galah said:

Feet issues. Whats that excuse number 33 in the  excuse book? 

dizzy will know for sure but i think the horse has quarter crack issues hence being at the beach in march and now season over

[Double R]

On 29/04/2019 at 5:36 PM, Brodie said:

Reality is that most of the connections with the AllStars stables don’t give a rats about anyone else in the industry apart from themselves!

The industry is in serious trouble in the years ahead of attracting new participants into the game, due to the dominance of the one stable!

Yes the topic is being brought up continuously, but the fact is that it is one of the biggest negative influences we currently have in regards to growing the industry!

Owners and trainers are totally getting the stitch and will fall by the wayside, and with no new owners coming thru, harness racing is stuffed!

 

Hi Brodie,

Having hosted the owners event at the Hall of Fame last Friday night, I can report there were lots of new owners in attendance. Most had horses racing, and had come from throughout New Zealand. The first people to arrive were from Oamaru followed closely by Ashburton.

Of course, it is hard to get a good horse to compete with the top stables, who win most of the good races, but as an owner, winning any race is a thrill. Most people are in ownership in the hope and dream they might get a good horse, but knowing, it will probably not happen.

I have always treated my horse ownership as my interest, and support that with my leisure/discretionary dollar. "You pay your money, you take your chances"

It is not all doom and gloom, but we need to keep pushing our sport, and not rest on our laurels.

Cheers.

Robert.

[Brodie]

Totally agree Robert.

Harness Racing is a great industry and would love it to thrive.

There are plenty of people in NZ that don’t even know what Harness Racing is and therefore don’t know what they are missing out on.

Somehow we need to attract these younger people to be interested.

Problem is the cost of living for them nowadays, with mortgages etc.

 

[Flagship uberalles]

3 minutes ago, Double R said:

Hi Brodie,

Having hosted the owners event at the Hall of Fame last Friday night, I can report there were lots of new owners in attendance. Most had horses racing, and had come from throughout New Zealand. The first people to arrive were from Oamaru followed closely by Ashburton.

Of course, it is hard to get a good horse to compete with the top stables, who win most of the good races, but as an owner, winning any race is a thrill. Most people are in ownership in the hope and dream they might get a good horse, but knowing, it will probably not happen.

I have always treated my horse ownership as my interest, and support that with my leisure/discretionary dollar. "You pay your money, you take your chances"

It is not all doom and gloom, but we need to keep pushing our sport, and not rest on our laurels.

Cheers.

Robert.

Hi Robert, any truth to the rumour that Jack's legend sold to the U.s?

[OLDWHITEMAN]

On 29/04/2019 at 8:40 PM, the galah said:

Feet issues. Whats that excuse number 33 in the  excuse book? 

Can you tell me what ever happened to the 2 McGrath runners who were being prepared for the nz cup the previous year.. Serious question.   Ears burning and classie brigade I think it was. Where did they get to, as after the pre cup media hype about being challengers to the all star barn, they have never been seen.

Mr McGrath is a good trainer of young stock. He is a master at getting horses going early but his record at keeping them going is not so good. Most of Mr McGrath's better nags reach a mark of C8-C9 (I am using the old handicapping because I don't understand the new system) and they then struggle to progress further. Few of his horses have measured up in OC. Long before the All Stars domination McGrath's horses struggled in OC so it is nothing new. I am not sure why his horses do not compete at the highest level. Any more knowledgeable harness people than me, like my good friend Brodie, have any idea why?