Has The Optimist become The Pessimist?

[Hedley]

OutStanding . . .Super Sleuth ?

Edited October 7, 2019 by Hedley

[The Centaur]

Hedley, In a way super sleuthing is not required to add 1 plus one to equal two.

 I know you have always been consistent and able to grasp the maths. Others when these high salaries were being paid would come on "You need to pay that to get results"  Just how could anyone deliver a miracle not knowing anything about the industry?

Similarly when the FOB was announced there were many saying "Must modernize, keep up with technology". You, myself and not that many others were right simply by doing the math. Where were the trainers and even Brian de Lore when the FOB was first mooted? In a way by not speaking up forcefully and a few being misdirected by the likes of Leo Molloy now have only themselves to blame.

[curious]

The introduction of FOB was a long time ago TC. 1996? from memory. That probably underlies some of the problems currently faced but it's an awfully long time ago to blame trainers then for not intervening effectively as an excuse for today's situation.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, curious said:

The introduction of FOB was a long time ago TC. 1996? from memory. That probably underlies some of the problems currently faced but it's an awfully long time ago to blame trainers then for not intervening effectively as an excuse for today's situation.

Blame the Phillistines 

[The Centaur]

1 hour ago, curious said:

The introduction of FOB was a long time ago TC. 1996? from memory. That probably underlies some of the problems currently faced but it's an awfully long time ago to blame trainers then for not intervening effectively as an excuse for today's situation.

By FOB I mean the OpenBet/Paddy Power deal which originated only a few years ago. The clue for anyone in racing was that this was all about sports betting and its proved so with the huge stuff up. Rather than get out on the limb and question the "experts" some trainers and I emphasize SOME (eg ex trainers) quite happy to go with the flow. 

[Freda]

Yes, I thought you were meaning the new platform, not FOB in general. 

To be fair to B.d L, he was very very critical of the RB and J.A. and the cost blowouts.   But he was/is so wrapped up in Winston and Messara that any alternative to THAT report never got any traction with him.

My repeated assertions to him that NZTR also needed the big broom didn't get much attention from him in his writings,  and, as has been demonstrated by others here with good racing knowledge,  there is much that can/could have been done at code level that didn't cost much at all.

Market forces will determine which tracks stay in use without arbitrary decisions by folk who have no feeling for local needs - and no financial nous either.

[Reefton]

The track closure question is an absolute smoke screen here.  People with a lot to lose if they come under scrutiny (like NZTR and NZRB) have happily cultivated that aspect of the Messara report to divert attention from the real issues(being the excesses of their own organisations)

But imagine trying to sort out the TAB/NZRB.  Even if you did bullet half the staff there would be severances and grievances galore and to be effective you would have to have detailed inside knowledge for a start(to make sure you were  getting rid of the deadwood and keeping the essential people who actually have some idea).  It would be just impossible and is symptomatic of NZ today - most big companies or public funded organisation are just full to the brim with deadwood.

The only option would be to straight out sell off the TAB operation and the clubs form their own overriding revenue distribution organisation to take in the funds and do a calculation of distributions(to make sure that those providing product on a midweek winter's day are not disadvantaged in comparison to someone racing on a summer Saturday).

By that I mean sack the lot of the NZRB hangers on and let the TAB buyer sort out any excesses in that department.

Far from ideal but this industry is dying and we have the 'Captains playing the ukulele as the ship goes down' 

 

[curious]

Maths test.

Anyone work out how $17m p.a. can be guesstimated (note the spelling error too..is this bloke a journalist?) to total $130m over 10 years?

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

The track closure question is an absolute smoke screen here.  People with a lot to lose if they come under scrutiny (like NZTR and NZRB) have happily cultivated that aspect of the Messara report to divert attention from the real issues(being the excesses of their own organisations)

But imagine trying to sort out the TAB/NZRB.  Even if you did bullet half the staff there would be severances and grievances galore and to be effective you would have to have detailed inside knowledge for a start(to make sure you were  getting rid of the deadwood and keeping the essential people who actually have some idea).  It would be just impossible and is symptomatic of NZ today - most big companies or public funded organisation are just full to the brim with deadwood.

The only option would be to straight out sell off the TAB operation and the clubs form their own overriding revenue distribution organisation to take in the funds and do a calculation of distributions(to make sure that those providing product on a midweek winter's day are not disadvantaged in comparison to someone racing on a summer Saturday).

By that I mean sack the lot of the NZRB hangers on and let the TAB buyer sort out any excesses in that department.

Far from ideal but this industry is dying and we have the 'Captains playing the ukulele as the ship goes down' 

 

I've been saying it for years , the first thing any ( smart ) struggling business does when there is a down turn is look at it's overheads and retrenches where neccesary . Through all the bullshit and spiel that has come out of NZTR/NZRB never once have they said they were going to look at themselves and tighten the belt . F#%k me John Allan thinks he was a success because he stopped the costs from going any higher . I suppose that could be considered a success if you weren't aiming too high . These guys couldn't run a MR Freeze van .

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

I've been saying it for years , the first thing any ( smart ) struggling business does when there is a down turn is look at it's overheads and retrenches where neccesary . Through all the bullshit and spiel that has come out of NZTR/NZRB never once have they said they were going to look at themselves and tighten the belt . F#%k me John Allan thinks he was a success because he stopped the costs from going any higher . I suppose that could be considered a success if you weren't aiming too high . These guys couldn't run a MR Freeze van .

Yes agreed but I have always said 'I know whats wrong with the industry but I would hate the job of trying to fix it'.  Every single one of these operations just has a fascination with getting more and more  and more and more admin staff.  The big Clubs are examples as well - only open for a small percentage of the year but weighed down with admin staff

20 years ago I made an example of the CJC - for every raceday their admin salaries were $10,000.  Ours on the Coast(admittedly with me discounting my fees heavily but I am an Accountant and charge Accountants rates) were about $3,333.

God know what escalations have happened in twenty years but you can guarantee the difference will have grown.

And the NZRB will be a victim of the same bullshit empire building culture.

 

 

[nomates]

38 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Yes agreed but I have always said 'I know whats wrong with the industry but I would hate the job of trying to fix it'.  Every single one of these operations just has a fascination with getting more and more  and more and more admin staff.  The big Clubs are examples as well - only open for a small percentage of the year but weighed down with admin staff

20 years ago I made an example of the CJC - for every raceday their admin salaries were $10,000.  Ours on the Coast(admittedly with me discounting my fees heavily but I am an Accountant and charge Accountants rates) were about $3,333.

God know what escalations have happened in twenty years but you can guarantee the difference will have grown.

And the NZRB will be a victim of the same bullshit empire building culture.

 

 

They make every thing big , heavy and layered so they can feel better about themselves and therefore makes them feel that it justifies their position and salary as being neccesary. They geniunley don't care where this industry will be in 5/10/20 years so long as their pockets are lined . Does anybody think that JA will ever look back on his years in racing with any shred of regret , he will have none , there won't even the slightest tinge of embaressment . I would love to be part of the job of " trying to fix it ", because i have a passion for racing and the horses , I would get a lot right just because of that passion .

[nomates]

I should add to the above that i now plenty of people that could help fix this industry for the same reasons i could . There are people on this site that have shown the same also . It's not rocket science . For the bits that are you hire a rocket scientist . In this instance we hired a postman to run NZ racing , next time hire a racing person and your half way to sorting out the shite fest that has been created . It's not rocket science .

[Reefton]

57 minutes ago, nomates said:

They make every thing big , heavy and layered so they can feel better about themselves and therefore makes them feel that it justifies their position and salary as being neccesary. They geniunley don't care where this industry will be in 5/10/20 years so long as their pockets are lined . Does anybody think that JA will ever look back on his years in racing with any shred of regret , he will have none , there won't even the slightest tinge of embaressment . I would love to be part of the job of " trying to fix it ", because i have a passion for racing and the horses , I would get a lot right just because of that passion .

Yes well that comes down to the issue of the NZRB Board using recruitment agencies to get people for these roles.  They probably could have got someone like Dean Mackenzie for half the price(at the time) and had a bloke with a love for, knowledge of and skin in the game.  But because he probably wasn't prepared to lie in his CV,  probably wasn't prepared to blow his own trumpet in his interview and probably doesn't have a string of letters after his name he would not have got a look in.

And because everyone is paranoid about making mistakes and being held accountable common sense flies out the window and they appoint a John Allen who knows nothing(about Racing) but will have been the strongly favored candidate in the 'best process' process.

Again they fail(as they always seem to do!) to recognise that racing is a industry with many aspects and a major one is the voluntary element whereby you dare not alienate a whole heap of people who are in it for love not money.

It just makes you sick(and drives the likes of me, admittedly a very very small fish in a big pond, to disillusionment with the game and to vow and declare that the nags I have shares in right now will be the last.  I might not be the biggest contributor to NZ racing but there are better things I could be doing with my hard earned)

[nomates]

32 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Yes well that comes down to the issue of the NZRB Board using recruitment agencies to get people for these roles.  They probably could have got someone like Dean Mackenzie for half the price(at the time) and had a bloke with a love for, knowledge of and skin in the game.  But because he probably wasn't prepared to lie in his CV,  probably wasn't prepared to blow his own trumpet in his interview and probably doesn't have a string of letters after his name he would not have got a look in.

And because everyone is paranoid about making mistakes and being held accountable common sense flies out the window and they appoint a John Allen who knows nothing(about Racing) but will have been the strongly favored candidate in the 'best process' process.

Again they fail(as they always seem to do!) to recognise that racing is a industry with many aspects and a major one is the voluntary element whereby you dare not alienate a whole heap of people who are in it for love not money.

It just makes you sick(and drives the likes of me, admittedly a very very small fish in a big pond, to disillusionment with the game and to vow and declare that the nags I have shares in right now will be the last.  I might not be the biggest contributor to NZ racing but there are better things I could be doing with my hard earned)

The biggest issue for me is the people appointing the JA's of this world are as lacking in the knowledge and vision for NZ racing as the people they appoint . So who is person appointing the board , that is the person that truely has to have understanding of what is required and a real care for the industry and people that are at the coal face . They don't have to have a passion just really care , when people care they tend to achieve , hence the situation we are in . I am like you , my passion has albut gone , have no more horses , first time in over 30 years , my grass is sold for hay or baleage , breaks my heart .

[curious]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

 I am like you , my passion has albut gone , have no more horses , first time in over 30 years , my grass is sold for hay or baleage , breaks my heart .

Same. Will be all in trees in another 12 months. One small paddock left (just in case I change my mind!). Tie-ups converted to a workshop a couple of months ago. Incredibly sad. 40+ years with a thoroughbred in sight 24/7 and my retirement dream was 2 or 3 in work. Went out the window 5 years ago.

Edited October 8, 2019 by curious

[Reefton]

4 hours ago, nomates said:

The biggest issue for me is the people appointing the JA's of this world are as lacking in the knowledge and vision for NZ racing as the people they appoint . So who is person appointing the board , that is the person that truely has to have understanding of what is required and a real care for the industry and people that are at the coal face . They don't have to have a passion just really care , when people care they tend to achieve , hence the situation we are in . I am like you , my passion has albut gone , have no more horses , first time in over 30 years , my grass is sold for hay or baleage , breaks my heart .

Yes fair comment and despite being a true blue supporter the major blame for the way it has gone in the last ten years lies with Nathan Bloody Guy!   And I have made that  clear to a couple of Nat MP's I have tangled with since the Messara report has come out as well(one - Andrew Falloon - said he would let Guy know my sentiments).

Hopeless and bitterly bitterly bitterly disappointing the way that man carried out his Racing Minister duties.  If he is the best we can do we would be better without a Racing Minister.

[Huey]

12 hours ago, curious said:

Same. Will be all in trees in another 12 months. One small paddock left (just in case I change my mind!). Tie-ups converted to a workshop a couple of months ago. Incredibly sad. 40+ years with a thoroughbred in sight 24/7 and my retirement dream was 2 or 3 in work. Went out the window 5 years ago.

That is sad to hear and worst still there are many thinking like you. But don't worry those running the industry think they can survive by having 5 TAs and forget about the owner,breeder,volunteer and they are dreaming. I have a few more young ones to get through then I'm out of the sport for good as well. 

I can cope with the poor levels of prize money,the ridiculous distribution of stakes, the absurd admin costs of racing a horse etc etc some how through my madness , but what I can't cope with is how this industry treats its participants! Particularly since the M report.

The ridiculous say one thing and then do the other, the incredible outright favouritism shown to certain clubs,stables and individuals , the fact you're better treated as an owner being part of BGP than you are owning your own horse, they say they are managing decline , well that's simply not true they are encouraging it.

[Joe Bloggs]

A united front was needed some time back, the cartel up north have nothing to worry about, most are retiring age or worse, they lined their coffers, the ATA was a joke and still is, militant action was needed, like QLD, a call to arms, never happened, bit like the AB's last game, until Hansen gave them the rev up the train wreck was in motion, now it's too late, the deceit from HQ is unpalatable the failure to follow fiduciary duty and no transparency or governance, should bring action from the supreme power, but there is no accountability, so it's a vicious circle.

The leisure dollar is now stretched, offer an attractive product, source new markets and revitalise the old, that's mandatory in order to succeed. You can even learn from fools, a bankrupt who learns from mistakes can rise from the ashes, but he/she must listen and the suits in Petone run their own race as who do they report to? 

In closing, I think a royal commission or at the very least a sanctioned moratorium should be held into NZR........maybe a forensic investigation into the reasoning behind the disastrous FOB platforms and the ''royalty'' streams that will bankrupt the industry over time.

There needs to be a will, but the grizzling wreaks of apathy, instead of walking away, take the correct action toward those that impacted so heavily on your decision, strength in numbers, it could happen, of course it could, but there needs to be a will and the only will that is evident is a will that is read following a death and then a funeral........it's a big ship NZ racing, it carries a lot of passengers, and there aren't enough lifeboats to go around. RIP.

[Reefton]

3 hours ago, Huey said:

That is sad to hear and worst still there are many thinking like you. But don't worry those running the industry think they can survive by having 5 TAs and forget about the owner,breeder,volunteer and they are dreaming. I have a few more young ones to get through then I'm out of the sport for good as well. 

I can cope with the poor levels of prize money,the ridiculous distribution of stakes, the absurd admin costs of racing a horse etc etc some how through my madness , but what I can't cope with is how this industry treats its participants! Particularly since the M report.

The ridiculous say one thing and then do the other, the incredible outright favouritism shown to certain clubs,stables and individuals , the fact you're better treated as an owner being part of BGP than you are owning your own horse, they say they are managing decline , well that's simply not true they are encouraging it.

That 'outright favouritism' is a genuine belief by those guys that they can save racing by glamourising it for three or four days a year when Ellerslie gets packed by drunken young maidens and equally drunken young blokes(being the 18-40 years olds they are aiming at and who Messara talked about).  What they(NZRB, Messara and Co) fail to realise is that those people have the attention span of a gnat and are not there interested in the races but in the pissup.  Kumara (for all its good aspects) is yet another example.  These people are not long term racing devotees and never never will be.  The long term devotees are the kids getting out of bed at 4.30am to go work in a stable or the blokes(and ladies) like me who consistently weaken when we resolve not to get another share in some nag then weaken when Pitty or someone comes along with a 'Winx' (fat chance!).

And we have successive racing ministers who turn up to NZ Cup day or Karaka Million night, the sales(K1 that is not the mid winter bloodstock auctions) or Kumara and  think 'this is the norm' AND that it is down to their personal work that it is the norm.

it is so bloody frustrating trying and trying and trying to get through to them

 

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

That 'outright favouritism' is a genuine belief by those guys that they can save racing by glamourising it for three or four days a year when Ellerslie gets packed by drunken young maidens and equally drunken young blokes(being the 18-40 years olds they are aiming at and who Messara talked about).  What they(NZRB, Messara and Co) fail to realise is that those people have the attention span of a gnat and are not there interested in the races but in the pissup.  Kumara (for all its good aspects) is yet another example.  These people are not long term racing devotees and never never will be.  The long term devotees are the kids getting out of bed at 4.30am to go work in a stable or the blokes(and ladies) like me who consistently weaken when we resolve not to get another share in some nag then weaken when Pitty or someone comes along with a 'Winx' (fat chance!).

And we have successive racing ministers who turn up to NZ Cup day or Karaka Million night, the sales(K1 that is not the mid winter bloodstock auctions) or Kumara and  think 'this is the norm' AND that it is down to their personal work that it is the norm.

it is so bloody frustrating trying and trying and trying to get through to them

 

They will wake up one day , when the young ones aren't turning up enough or betting enough and all the oldies they pissed off to the point of dropping their interest are long gone , they will be wishing they had put longer term stratigies in place then . I can tell you it's no better in UK . Just back from 6 weeks in Scotland and a short time in England . Went to Ayr races and a jumping meeting at Perth . Talked to the boss at Ayr and some bookies at both meetings , all said racing is on it's knees . Huge crowds both days , Ayr was their ladies evening and Perth having their biggest race of the year . Massive amount of young people , after 3/4 races mostly pissed , most races barely 1/2 the crowd was watching a race . Never seen so much fake tan and war paint on woman's faces in my life and skirts that for the most showed what they had for breakfast . Nothing scarier than a bunch of young pissed woman swearing the air blue all clutching jugs , yes jugs , of pimms between their bosoms and barging their way around the race course . Anyway the guys i talked to all said that days like those numbers wise were few and far between , the average day you could shoot guns and hit no one . Noticed that there was a lot of meetings on a daily basis where the winners were getting around 2.5k to 2.75k , and training fees were on the whole a lot higher than here . The one thing tho that they are getting right IMO is they are paying back to 9th or 10th , a stategy i firmly has to be implimented here sooner than later . But they all said the same , racing was on it's way out unless like us something major was done . 

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

They will wake up one day , when the young ones aren't turning up enough or betting enough and all the oldies they pissed off to the point of dropping their interest are long gone , they will be wishing they had put longer term stratigies in place then . I can tell you it's no better in UK . Just back from 6 weeks in Scotland and a short time in England . Went to Ayr races and a jumping meeting at Perth . Talked to the boss at Ayr and some bookies at both meetings , all said racing is on it's knees . Huge crowds both days , Ayr was their ladies evening and Perth having their biggest race of the year . Massive amount of young people , after 3/4 races mostly pissed , most races barely 1/2 the crowd was watching a race . Never seen so much fake tan and war paint on woman's faces in my life and skirts that for the most showed what they had for breakfast . Nothing scarier than a bunch of young pissed woman swearing the air blue all clutching jugs , yes jugs , of pimms between their bosoms and barging their way around the race course . Anyway the guys i talked to all said that days like those numbers wise were few and far between , the average day you could shoot guns and hit no one . Noticed that there was a lot of meetings on a daily basis where the winners were getting around 2.5k to 2.75k , and training fees were on the whole a lot higher than here . The one thing tho that they are getting right IMO is they are paying back to 9th or 10th , a stategy i firmly has to be implimented here sooner than later . But they all said the same , racing was on it's way out unless like us something major was done . 

Interesting - same concept re the drunken young girls as Kumara and Cromwell(and NZ Cup day I guess).  Having said that one would hope they remember they had a good day at the races and venture back BUT they are not contributing to the industry when they are not punting.

Michael Pitman was hugely impressed with the crowds over there for (I think - he will correct me) a Friday night Newmarket meeting at Royal Ascot time when they had a band on course and a huge turnout of punters.  

Anyway like I say 'I know all about what is wrong - I would hate the job of trying to fix it'

[Freda]

Interesting observations from Nomates....racing may indeed be in decline in the UK , but I bet the starting point for the slide was a bloody sight higher up...!

[nomates]

58 minutes ago, Freda said:

Interesting observations from Nomates....racing may indeed be in decline in the UK , but I bet the starting point for the slide was a bloody sight higher up...!

The starting point may have been higher to start with and if you chose to not lift the carpet and see what was happening under those big events then things are going to be misleadingly rosy . As i said tho those stakes , and it was a daily occurance , were in a lot of cases less than a midweeker gets here . On their bigger days a lot of the supporting races weren't huge stakes . The bookie shops i went into were usually very light on customers . Talking to the people behind the counters they said they did a large turnover on the " cartoon races " , which i found scary .

[Joe Bloggs]

34 minutes ago, nomates said:

The starting point may have been higher to start with and if you chose to not lift the carpet and see what was happening under those big events then things are going to be misleadingly rosy . As i said tho those stakes , and it was a daily occurance , were in a lot of cases less than a midweeker gets here . On their bigger days a lot of the supporting races weren't huge stakes . The bookie shops i went into were usually very light on customers . Talking to the people behind the counters they said they did a large turnover on the " cartoon races " , which i found scary .

The 'cartoon' races actually saved racing in NSW...to a point, The Labour state Gov handed over somewhere around 150mil to AJC/STC on condition they merger, and give up the rights to the animated horse racing......it worked, NSW never looked back, the racing minister was Kevin Greene, a legend who now holds a place on the ATC board.......Nathan Hopeless could and should have met Mr Greene and asked for advice, NSW is thriving, NZ will always be the breeding ground of champions, but quadrupeds, or All Blacks but that's 30 legs and doesn't count really.

[Huey]

I see all the comments about the Asset Grab have proved the smokescreen everyone knew they were and are set to fragment the industry even more:

Latest RITA update 

Legislate to vest club assets to code regulatory bodies, Reduce the number of venues and Upgrade facilities and tracks of remaining venues with funds from closed venues. There has been an enormous amount of work done in the venue space in an attempt to give the industry the tools it needs to tackle the hard decisions and successfully resolve them. RITA has provided feedback to the DIA on the need to build on the existing work programme, and if any legislative changes are required they are subject to a clear and transparent process between Codes and Clubs, but we await Government’s direction on this matter. In the interim, RITA continues to work with the Codes on the Future Venue Plan with a meeting expected to be scheduled over the next few weeks.