Common Sense? NZTR Announce Initial Stakes Money

[mardigras]

1 minute ago, All The Aces said:

Just further evidence of your Kim Un Jong traits.

  Huey had got the better of you.  How will he be executed?  

Sure he did. And you win at punting. We don't need lies or liars on here. He's proven he's a liar, since he claimed stuff that is untrue. And he can't show evidence of his claims. How simple would that be. But nope - nothing. Actually, a lot like you.

I hope you enjoy the funding for your horses next season - gonna be a blast.

[Noodlum]

5 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Just further evidence of your Kim Un Jong traits.

 

Says you who blindly supports the ruling elite and wants to see the Guineas confiscated by north.

[mardigras]

4 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

NZTR/RITA to call on payment of their loans to clubs?  E.g. RACE Inc.  If they can't pay then acquire THEIR assets as per the Mesara Report.

Yep, that'll help.

[Kopia]

2 hours ago, mardigras said:

For someone so anti Labour - you seem keen on the idea of racing being the recipient of massive 'social welfare' from the government. 

Or where else do you think the money is going to come from?

Actually, since the lefties think its appropriate to squander hundreds of millions of dollars on 'homeless' motels, food,taxis,skytv etc etc without any expectation of these people working/finding accommodation/helping themselves in any way..then yes maybe racin should get some of their moolah!

[All The Aces]

2 hours ago, Noodlum said:

Says you who blindly supports the ruling elite and wants to see the Guineas confiscated by north.

Pure speculation on your part Noods and incorrect.

It's funny, everyone talks about rationalization from number of tracks to racing programmes and yet when something is suggested, those affected (even though calling for change), vigorously then defend their patch and yell no way!!

I thought about it, provided figures in both horse numbers and neither race is strongly supported by the South (and let's face it the South haven't won either race since 2011 either). I even went as far as suggesting where both races looked best placed, at Ellerslie on Boxing day and New Years Day replacing the two 3yo races that currently sit there. Perhaps those two races, one listed and the other a G2 could go South.     

 

[Noodlum]

39 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

It's funny, everyone talks about rationalization from number of tracks to racing programmes and yet when something is suggested, those affected (even though calling for change), vigorously then defend their patch and yell no way!!

 

Not EVERYONE agrees with the rationalisation of tracks.  However what many disagree with is the criteria being used to close tracks.  Most of those defending their own patches are asking for a fair deal.

For example if we applied some fair and reasonable criteria then Trentham and Ellerslie would be the first to close.  Both don't have any resident or for that matter close populations of horses in training.  Neither actually pay their way in racing without industry subsidisation nor income derived from other sources.  Both have declining attendance figures.  Both have tracks that have marginal racing surfaces at the best of times and certainly cannot sustain Winter Racing.  Ellerslie actually closes down for most of the winter.  Both have highly valuable real estate (return on capital is appalling) that if sold would provide substantial funding for the rest of the industry.  Unfortunately selling Hokitika, Reefton and even 20 other racecourses won't get you the same amount of capital - not even close!

48 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

I thought about it, provided figures in both horse numbers and neither race is strongly supported by the South (and let's face it the South haven't won either race since 2011 either). I even went as far as suggesting where both races looked best placed, at Ellerslie on Boxing day and New Years Day replacing the two 3yo races that currently sit there. Perhaps those two races, one listed and the other a G2 could go South.     

 

You show the same ignorance as most of our administrators.  I know for a fact that there have been South Island owners involved in winning since 2011.  By the way check where Barneswood Farm is.  They won the 1000 Guineas in 2011 AND 2018.  They've even sponsored the race!!!!

You then shoot yourself in the foot by suggesting that the Ellerslie Listed and Gr2 races should go south.  

Anyway there is NO new reason for the races to be shifted.  You are probably too young and selfish to know that these two Guineas races were compensation for the shifting of the NZ Derby and the NZ Oaks to the North Island from Riccarton.  

Go ask Pike when he is completing his shift to Australia?  Perhaps we should move the Derby to Rosehill or Flemington as our best 3yr olds race there and not here. 

[Freda]

6 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Not EVERYONE agrees with the rationalisation of tracks.  However what many disagree with is the criteria being used to close tracks.  Most of those defending their own patches are asking for a fair deal.

Absolutely.

Quote

For example if we applied some fair and reasonable criteria then Trentham and Ellerslie would be the first to close.  Both don't have any resident or for that matter close populations of horses in training.  Neither actually pay their way in racing without industry subsidisation nor income derived from other sources.  Both have declining attendance figures.  Both have tracks that have marginal racing surfaces at the best of times and certainly cannot sustain Winter Racing.  Ellerslie actually closes down for most of the winter.  Both have highly valuable real estate (return on capital is appalling) that if sold would provide substantial funding for the rest of the industry.  Unfortunately selling Hokitika, Reefton and even 20 other racecourses won't get you the same amount of capital - not even close!

Obvious.

Quote

You show the same ignorance as most of our administrators.  I know for a fact that there have been South Island owners involved in winning since 2011.  By the way check where Barneswood Farm is.  They won the 1000 Guineas in 2011 AND 2018.  They've even sponsored the race!!!!

You then shoot yourself in the foot by suggesting that the Ellerslie Listed and Gr2 races should go south.  

Anyway there is NO new reason for the races to be shifted.  You are probably too young and selfish to know that these two Guineas races were compensation for the shifting of the NZ Derby and the NZ Oaks to the North Island from Riccarton.  

Go ask Pike when he is completing his shift to Australia?  Perhaps we should move the Derby to Rosehill or Flemington as our best 3yr olds race there and not here. 

Big fish,  small pond perhaps?

Edited May 5, 2020 by Freda

[All The Aces]

57 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Not EVERYONE agrees with the rationalisation of tracks.  However what many disagree with is the criteria being used to close tracks.  Most of those defending their own patches are asking for a fair deal.

For example if we applied some fair and reasonable criteria then Trentham and Ellerslie would be the first to close.  Both don't have any resident or for that matter close populations of horses in training.  Neither actually pay their way in racing without industry subsidisation nor income derived from other sources.  Both have declining attendance figures.  Both have tracks that have marginal racing surfaces at the best of times and certainly cannot sustain Winter Racing.  Ellerslie actually closes down for most of the winter.  Both have highly valuable real estate (return on capital is appalling) that if sold would provide substantial funding for the rest of the industry.  Unfortunately selling Hokitika, Reefton and even 20 other racecourses won't get you the same amount of capital - not even close!

You show the same ignorance as most of our administrators.  I know for a fact that there have been South Island owners involved in winning since 2011.  By the way check where Barneswood Farm is.  They won the 1000 Guineas in 2011 AND 2018.  They've even sponsored the race!!!!

You then shoot yourself in the foot by suggesting that the Ellerslie Listed and Gr2 races should go south.  

Anyway there is NO new reason for the races to be shifted.  You are probably too young and selfish to know that these two Guineas races were compensation for the shifting of the NZ Derby and the NZ Oaks to the North Island from Riccarton.  

Go ask Pike when he is completing his shift to Australia?  Perhaps we should move the Derby to Rosehill or Flemington as our best 3yr olds race there and not here. 

And the Riccarton track is perfect? Are they still watering the outside to stop horses going wide in the winter?

BTW I only added sending the two races South as an afterthought. If you don't want them so be it.

As to the NZ Derby and NZ Oaks, well obviously they have gone pretty well since coming North. I suggest the Guineas would be the same.

  

 

[Noodlum]

10 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

And the Riccarton track is perfect? Are they still watering the outside to stop horses going wide in the winter?

 

Didn't say it was perfect.  It seems I need to break my posts down to smaller pieces so you can comprehend.  The point was about the criteria used for closing tracks down needed to be fair and of benefit to the industry as a whole.  Selling Ellerslie and Trentham would be of benefit to the industry.

10 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

BTW I only added sending the two races South as an afterthought. If you don't want them so be it.

 

Thanks for the "afterthought".  Why take them when the South has two great Grp 1 3yr old races anyway raced during NZ's only multi-code racing carnival.

Are you suggesting that Grp One races should only be held at Ellerslie?

 

10 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

As to the NZ Derby and NZ Oaks, well obviously they have gone pretty well since coming North. I suggest the Guineas would be the same.

 

"Going pretty well since coming North" is fairly subjective at best.  How have they "gone well"? 

The Guineas have gone well at Riccarton for the last 40 years as part of NZ's most successful multi-code racing carnival.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Noodlum

[All The Aces]

31 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Didn't say it was perfect.  It seems I need to break my posts down to smaller pieces so you can comprehend.  The point was about the criteria used for closing tracks down needed to be fair and of benefit to the industry as a whole.  Selling Ellerslie and Trentham would be of benefit to the industry.

Thanks for the "afterthought".  Why take them when the South has two great Grp 1 3yr old races anyway raced during NZ's only multi-code racing carnival.

Are you suggesting that Grp One races should only be held at Ellerslie?

 

"Going pretty well since coming North" is fairly subjective at best.  How have they "gone well"? 

The Guineas have gone well at Riccarton for the last 40 years as part of NZ's most successful multi-code racing carnival.

Certainly not subjective. 

This season both the Derby and the Oaks had capacity fields.

NZ TAB turnover on the 2000 Guineas was $394K. Couldn't locate the figure for the 1000 Guineas.

NZ Derby the NZ TAB did $851k and the NZ Oaks  $572k     Both significantly better.

 

[Noodlum]

45 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Certainly not subjective. 

This season both the Derby and the Oaks had capacity fields.

NZ TAB turnover on the 2000 Guineas was $394K. Couldn't locate the figure for the 1000 Guineas.

NZ Derby the NZ TAB did $851k and the NZ Oaks  $572k     Both significantly better.

 

And none of the three clubs paid their way on the day in terms of stakes paid versus net betting revenue.

Ellerslie did the worst by far.  Not counting the other races on the day but the Derby alone $1m in stakes.  Turnover $851k; revenue about $140k BEFORE costs.  So a net loss of $860k at least.

I would say Riccarton the best.

$500k - $77k = -$433k.  Plus you need to consider the lower stakes for supporting races at Riccarton and overall turnover.  Which would give Riccarton a better raceday result.  

Your North Island mates might want to consider the bigger picture before they screw up the Guineas.

All three relied on subsidisation from elsewhere.  

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Noodlum

[curious]

So if they stick with the plan of matching stakes to earnings, maybe 100k Derby and 50k for Guineas and Oaks next season?

[Noodlum]

1 minute ago, curious said:

So if they stick with the plan of matching stakes to earnings, maybe 100k Derby and 50k for Guineas and Oaks next season?

I don't agree with that extreme.  But why not $250k? 

 

[curious]

5 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

I don't agree with that extreme.  But why not $250k? 

 

$200k added would retain their G1 status and the clubs could find any balance. That still means some of that money has to found elsewhere, outside what those races earn. Were those turnover figures inclusive of FOB or just tote?

 

[Noodlum]

4 minutes ago, curious said:

Were those turnover figures inclusive of FOB or just tote?

I have no idea.  They were quoted by All The Aces.

Geez as far as information for stakeholders bring back Purcell and Allen!!

This new lot are hiding everything and what is being produced is marketing bullshit.

[All The Aces]

29 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

And none of the three clubs paid their way on the day in terms of stakes paid versus net betting revenue.

Ellerslie did the worst by far.  Not counting the other races on the day but the Derby alone $1m in stakes.  Turnover $851k; revenue about $140k BEFORE costs.  So a net loss of $860k at least.

I would say Riccarton the best.

$500k - $77k = -$433k.  Plus you need to consider the lower stakes for supporting races at Riccarton and overall turnover.  Which would give Riccarton a better raceday result.  

Your North Island mates might want to consider the bigger picture before they screw up the Guineas.

All three relied on subsidisation from elsewhere.  

 

Which is a different matter altogether.

Both the Derby and the Oaks get better numbers than the Guineas and have a far greater turnover. 

[Noodlum]

20 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Both the Derby and the Oaks get better numbers than the Guineas and have a far greater turnover. 

That's a dumb ass argument.  The Guineas vs the Derby and Oaks are run at completely different ends of the season!  Different distances too!

You haven't provided any NEW reasons for shifting the Guineas and screwing the South Island's gift to NZ racing - the biggest racing carnival for 3 codes over the space of a week.

Using your logic you'd shift the Sir Trisrtam 3yr Old Classic (now the David and Karyn Ellis) to Riccarton because the 1000 Guineas has bigger fields and more turnover!

Edited May 5, 2020 by Noodlum

[All The Aces]

1 minute ago, Noodlum said:

That's a dumb ass argument.  The Guineas vs the Derby and Oaks are run at completely different ends of the season!  Different distances too!

You haven't provided any NEW reasons for shifting the Guineas and screwing the South Island's gift to NZ racing - the biggest racing carnival for 3 codes over the space of a week.

Let's face it what difference would it make to the public at Riccarton if the Guineas where raced elsewhere. They couldn't give a damn. It's more the piss up and the social occasion for them. The biggest turnover race every year is the Cup itself. This season the NZ TAB did $799k on the Cup.

Anyway Noodles,  keep crying for tradition and keeping things the same. By keeping everything the same is why the industry has gone nowhere. If you want different results you have to try different approaches. What's that saying "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."   

I just believe that both Guineas races have reached a stage where they would be more successful in the North.   

[Noodlum]

11 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Let's face it what difference would it make to the public at Riccarton if the Guineas where raced elsewhere.

Quite a bit actually.  It is South Island racing's week in the limelight.  But not only for the general public but the hard working Canterbury racing people.  You see your marketing viewpoint is what has been prevalent at the NZRB/RITA for the last 15 years and where is racing because of it?

They've fucked with tradition and where has it got us?  They've been aided and abetted by the Waikato elite and look what has happened to their local meetings.

17 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

They couldn't give a damn. It's more the piss up and the social occasion for them.

What's wrong with a proportion of the crowd doing that?  Are you suggesting that the piss up and social occasion would continue without the horses?

19 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

tradition and keeping things the same. By keeping everything the same is why the industry has gone nowhere. If you want different results you have to try different approaches.

As I said above one of the biggest reasons we are in this mess is they that have the power have changed things and have screwed with tradition.  Comparatively Cup Week in Christchurch is the most successful RACING carnival in New Zealand.  It was and still is!!!!  So since you are rolling out the wise sayings how about this one - "If it ain't broke why try and fix it?"

I don't think there are any Aces in your pack.  

[All The Aces]

Whatever Noodles we agree to disagree. 

For your sake I hope that your South island trainers start to support the Guineas more. They hardly seem interested in recent years. Without the North Island horses coming down they wouldn't be G1s for long.  

Edited May 5, 2020 by All The Aces

[Noodlum]

12 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Whatever Noodles we agree to disagree. 

For your sake I hope that your South island trainers start to support the Guineas more. They hardly seem interested in recent years. Without the North Island horses coming down they wouldn't be G1s for long.  

You know that argument is the most spurious of all your arguments.  I'd sack any trainer, no matter where they were based, if I had a horse good enough to compete in the Guineas for $500k and they wouldn't travel. 

When's Tony Pike finishing his packing for Australia?

Edited May 5, 2020 by Noodlum