Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[Pitman]

48 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Did you have a horse in your frequent flyer carry-on baggage?  What's the track like in Bali?  

The Air NZ. Airpoints will be put to good use if we can ever get out of NZ again

Didn’t like Bali, loved Singapore  spent a few days with Bridget and Stephen Gray very good people

[curious]

33 minutes ago, Pitman said:

My apologies I did say that but let’s put it in the context I should have said “ I’m sick of traveling when we can have more racing at Riccarton” and that’s what I’m looking forward to in the future

Fair enough but I have been told by CJC board members that the track is at full stretch there catering for 26 or 27 meetings a year. To run more will require a second track or a replacement of the existing one, say with a Strathayr. The available data suggests that an AWT installation is nowhere near feasible or affordable and where would the money come from for a major reinstallation of the existing one and where would they race in the meantime?

20 years ago I know, but you were always the first behind the wheel in the truck with a load of runners almost anywhere in the SI when I was down there. Also, not afraid to chuck a couple of decent ones on board for Trentham, HB, the Waikato or Auckland. Travel goes with the territory when you own or train horses. A number of us I know have an interest in having one or two in work in Canterbury but would like a clear indication of the state of play re tracks, costs etc. over the next year or two. Aidan O'Brien has just put 3 in quarantine as potential runners for the Melbourne Cup, half way round the world. He can't win it on his doorstep in Tipperary.

 

[Pitman]

One thing I can advise is I asked Tim Mills this morning re track fees and it is their intention that these will not rise just because of track alterations but of course inflation may cause an increase, that’s fair

[curious]

22 minutes ago, Pitman said:

One thing I can advise is I asked Tim Mills this morning re track fees and it is their intention that these will not rise just because of track alterations but of course inflation may cause an increase, that’s fair

Fair enough again but if they have to find say an extra $1/2m a year to maintain an AWT, where does he think it will come from?

[Pitman]

Ask Tim Mills

[Chief Stipe]

37 minutes ago, Pitman said:

One thing I can advise is I asked Tim Mills this morning re track fees and it is their intention that these will not rise just because of track alterations but of course inflation may cause an increase, that’s fair

I don't see inflation climbing anytime soon however that wouldn't cover the extra costs with maintaining the polytrack.

Did you ask Stephen Gray what he thought of the Polytrack in Singapore?

[curious]

3 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Ask Tim Mills

He reportedly doesn't know.

[nomates]

This is just a piss take , no one involved has any idea what the costs are . The blind leading the blind .

A seemingly intelligent man , who clearly has a vested interest in this track going in , asks  "what is going to happen with the track fees ? " , gets told they wont be increasing because of the new track , but doesn't think to ask the next obvious question "how are you going to fund the increased maintenance costs then ? ", so then at least he can assure his owners that they aren't going to pick up the tab . Is that because he doesn't care as long as the track goes in ? 

This is just a game of bullshit , bullshit and more bullshit .

[Chief Stipe]

Maybe we can get a copy of the attached document WITHOUT the "commercially sensitive" redactions!

The CJC's logo is on this PGF Application so I'm sure Tim has some idea about what's in it.

synthetic-racing-tracks-combined-updated-application.pdf

[curious]

13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Maybe we can get a copy of the attached document WITHOUT the "commercially sensitive" redactions!

The CJC's logo is on this PGF Application so I'm sure Tim has some idea about what's in it.

synthetic-racing-tracks-combined-updated-application.pdf 4.35 MB · 0 downloads

That's the one that was rjeected isn't it? I can't seem to open it.

Edited September 19, 2020 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

I see in the Awapuni proposal Kamada Park gets new stables.

Riccarton is going to double the number of horse's trained on course and double the number of race meetings.

Still don't understand why there is commercial sensitivity around this proposal.  Unless it hides numbers that can be challenged and/or discloses who has fingers in the pie!

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, curious said:

That's the one that was rjeected isn't it? I can't seem to open it.

Probably is the rejected one BUT it was rejected by the bureaucrats prior to Winnie and Jonesie doing deals.  I would imagine that the details didn't change a lot.

[nomates]

27 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The CJC's logo is on this PGF Application so I'm sure Tim has some idea about what's in it.

 

Tim seems to know FA about FA , i wouldn't want him running my business .

 

14 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Riccarton is going to double the number of horse's trained on course and double the number of race meetings.

 

Where are they getting them from , trainers from outside Riccarton have made it clear , the A/W is a no goer for them . This just more gobbledy gook bullshit to enhance the proposal .

Where did they get that figure from , it wasn't from asking owners and trainers . 

They have more spin than Charlotte's Web , and they are talking what the pig was rolling in .

Maybe the resident trainers have committed to buying more horses to race themselves .

[Pitman]

Ok 

At the moment our training tracks are plough, sand, small sand, cinders, and numerous grass tracks which most days the number nine (pacework) and a galloping grass is used patched and maintained

IF AND WHEN the AWT is built all these tracks go so does therefore the daily maintenance of them, which is quite substantial.

Do you understand so far?!

We will then have an AWT galloping grass and sand Do you understand this. 

FREDA can confirm

 So a huge reduction in tracks used and maintained daily We will also have the course proper that will not be used for winter industry days which should ensure a better course proper long term. That’s what I anticipate and am looking forward to

Therefore there will be some savings on maintenance of all tracks that are going so, don’t just label the AWT to substantial increase in daily maintenance there may be even less. The big cost will be when replacement or upgrading of AWT is required that is the major question atm

[curious]

15 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Ok 

At the moment our training tracks are plough, sand, small sand, cinders, and numerous grass tracks which most days the number nine (pacework) and a galloping grass is used patched and maintained

IF AND WHEN the AWT is built all these tracks go so does therefore the daily maintenance of them, which is quite substantial.

Do you understand so far?!

We will then have an AWT galloping grass and sand Do you understand this. 

FREDA can confirm

 So a huge reduction in tracks used and maintained daily We will also have the course proper that will not be used for winter industry days which should ensure a better course proper long term. That’s what I anticipate and am looking forward to

Therefore there will be some savings on maintenance of all tracks that are going so, don’t just label the AWT to substantial increase in daily maintenance there may be even less. The big cost will be when replacement or upgrading of AWT is required that is the major question atm

Can you give us some numbers for that? The numbers I've seen for daily maintenance of AWTs being used daily for training are many times that for ploughs and sands etc. Tim mentioned 1.5m a year for Singapore but he doesn't seem to know any actual numbers for sure (nor does anyone else seem to), so I'm not clear where your claims come from? Can you point us to that data and analysis please?

Edited September 19, 2020 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Pitman said:

IF AND WHEN the AWT is built all these tracks go so does therefore the daily maintenance of them, which is quite substantial.

Do you understand so far?!

We will then have an AWT galloping grass and sand Do you understand this.

So where will the training be done while the track is being built?

Most of those surfaces that you mention don't require a lot of maintenance and I gather there isn't a lot done when it should be.

Now if what you are saying is correct then the maintenance costs of the AWT will be greater than most and will shorten the life if the polyfill.

With the tracks mentioned above how many are completely groomed twice a day?  Will the AWT be sectioned off and only parts of the 16m width groomed each day?

[nomates]

15 minutes ago, Pitman said:

At the moment our training tracks are plough, sand, small sand, cinders, and numerous grass tracks which most days the number nine (pacework) and a galloping grass is used patched and maintained

IF AND WHEN the AWT is built all these tracks go so does therefore the daily maintenance of them, which is quite substantial.

 

So you have all these tracks at present but are all going to be replaced by one A/W track that is 16 mtrs wide . So how is the track going to be divvied up when you have gallops going , quiet paceworkers , faster paceworkers , uneducated horses trying to be educated all at the same time . I've seen regularly 4,or 5 different training tracks being used at any one time elsewhere and you appear to have 9 .

Are you going to have to draw lots as to who works when and what type of work can be done . You might get a sleep in , if you get allotted the 11am slot .

 

[Chief Stipe]

All the speculation and doubts could easily be eliminated if RITA/NZTR/CJC published the PGF application and supporting analysis.

In my opinion there is zero commercial sensitivity.  

It seems stakeholders are expected to follow the line - "Trust Us, we know what we are doing"!  Unfortunately history is littered with their stuff ups.

If they want the investment to be successful then trainers, owners and punters need transparency to encourage them to invest and plan.  Otherwise - 

[nomates]

28 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Therefore there will be some savings on maintenance of all tracks that are going so, don’t just label the AWT to substantial increase in daily maintenance there may be even less. The big cost will be when replacement or upgrading of AWT is required that is the major question atm

If any sort of substandard feasibility study had been done they would already have a reasonable understanding of what the maintenance costs were going to be , a simple phone call to a club already utilizing one would give you a fair indication .

No that one is too tough , but they can say that they are going to increase numbers trained there by double , that would be the biggest intangible of the lot for them to predict , but no they have that one down pat but we can't say , even roughly , what the maintenance costs will be .

I'm calling bullshit on that on as well .

And , if they happen to be correct about the increase in horse numbers , that 16 mtr wide A/W is going to feckin congested in a morning , you might end up getting pushed back to a 1pm slot .

[Chief Stipe]

I just don't understand why the secret squirrel's.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if decades of over priced management hadn't made so many poor decisions and squandered resources.  We forget that history at our peril.

[nomates]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

I just don't understand why the secret squirrel's.

 

Because they are so desperate to have this track they don't want people to know just how fragile this whole proposal is . 

But they don't get that their lack of transparency is the biggest white flag , give people the respect of full disclosure and they more are inclined to participate with a more positive attitude . Unfortunately years of this ingrained behaviour is tough to break . This is not a behaviour that happens only in racing tho .

[Joe Bloggs]

6 hours ago, Pitman said:

If you are referring to me

Who said I don’t want to travel he who hides

I enjoy travelling as much as anyone, but I also enjoy racing at Riccarton - home base where hopefully 35 to 40 meetings a year will be held in the future

England, Japan, USA, Qatar, Australia (East and West) Bali, Langkawi, Penang, Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur are some destinations I have been to in last 18 months no I don’t like traveling! Even been to Cambridge, Auckland, Hamilton, Queenstown, Wanaka, Invercargill, Gore, Bluff, Timaru, Ashburton, Kurow, Riverton, Waikouaiti, Cromwell, Dunedin, Hanmer, Wellington, etc no I don’t want to travel

I just had to, I really had.....were you pissed when you wrote this? We're reading Gulliver's Travels, and yes, you really did say that.......

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

If any sort of substandard feasibility study had been done they would already have a reasonable understanding of what the maintenance costs were going to be , a simple phone call to a club already utilizing one would give you a fair indication .

No that one is too tough , but they can say that they are going to increase numbers trained there by double , that would be the biggest intangible of the lot for them to predict , but no they have that one down pat but we can't say , even roughly , what the maintenance costs will be .

I'm calling bullshit on that on as well .

And , if they happen to be correct about the increase in horse numbers , that 16 mtr wide A/W is going to feckin congested in a morning , you might end up getting pushed back to a 1pm slot .

Shall I send Mills and the glove puppet Toowoomba Turf Clubs number? They can tell the board and the trainers how could they get it so wrong.......oh, and while they are on the line......''please can you explain the maintenance costs and shelf life of the track if most of our hundreds of horses utilise it everyday.......thank you. and then do same to Geelong board......so on and so on.........

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Because they are so desperate to have this track they don't want people to know just how fragile this whole proposal is . 

But they don't get that their lack of transparency is the biggest white flag , give people the respect of full disclosure and they more are inclined to participate with a more positive attitude . Unfortunately years of this ingrained behaviour is tough to break . This is not a behaviour that happens only in racing tho .

It's now become a culture Nomates, shamefully.

[curious]

14 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Shall I send Mills and the glove puppet Toowoomba Turf Clubs number? They can tell the board and the trainers how could they get it so wrong.......oh, and while they are on the line......''please can you explain the maintenance costs and shelf life of the track if most of our hundreds of horses utilise it everyday.......thank you. and then do same to Geelong board......so on and so on.........

Hard to jump on a plane these days but they could have a talk to Keeneland and Del Mar as well. I wonder if Pitty and Mills have ever ridden on one of these things?

Edited September 19, 2020 by curious