Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[Pitman]

We have worked horses on polytrack and I have witnessed plenty of horses that have. 

[Huey]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

 

Well i can tell you that the majority of those people who had the big skin in the game are as much to blame for the demise of NZ racing as the administrators .

.

So true and still today many are ruining NZ racing as we speak. As you know its like a big club, this can be evidenced by the fact that certain clubs and certain administrators  never get  called out or critiqued , this has been the biggest problem in NZ racing and continues to be. 

The venue plan was a prime example of this, the M report also Te Rapa refused to sell up and move to a new facility nothing said, some smaller venues fight for their lives the industry labels them selfish or living in the past.  Pukekohe is a disaster yet they still allocate race dates why? Other venues have something go wrong and they are isolated and excluded. It's not a level playing field that is for certain.

[nomates]

59 minutes ago, Huey said:

So true and still today many are ruining NZ racing as we speak. As you know its like a big club, this can be evidenced by the fact that certain clubs and certain administrators  never get  called out or critiqued , this has been the biggest problem in NZ racing and continues to be. 

The venue plan was a prime example of this, the M report also Te Rapa refused to sell up and move to a new facility nothing said, some smaller venues fight for their lives the industry labels them selfish or living in the past.  Pukekohe is a disaster yet they still allocate race dates why? Other venues have something go wrong and they are isolated and excluded. It's not a level playing field that is for certain.

That is the problem we have , even whilst the industry is crying out for oxygen they are still throwing money at the absolute top , which is a very slim wedge in NZ racing . Still throwing 500k at karaka races , Derby still 1mil along with numerous other top tier races , which do not justify the money in these times . 

Would any of these races suffer in quality if the stake was reduced by 25% or the karaka races were left to fend for themselves , no they wouldn't .

But at the same time whilst i applauded the application of starter payments what's the point when it's just taken from the winners purse , i genuinely get amazed at the stupidity of our management . Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul . Maybe if they had reduced top end stakes all lower and middle tier races could have had a top up . 

The problem is now the top end of racing , the clubs and stakes etc , is just getting bigger and bigger in relation to the rest of the industry , it's like we are squeezing racing from the bottom up . Why is NZ rugby so strong , it's base product , why is English football so strong , it's base product , Australian racing the same . Why is it we think we can buck that trend . It's got to topple eventually if the base keeps getting thinner .

The next 2-5 years i think will pretty much dictate if NZ racing can ever get out from under itself . It wont so long as we keep servicing the top end of each thread of our industry .

[Joe Bloggs]

55 minutes ago, nomates said:

That is the problem we have , even whilst the industry is crying out for oxygen they are still throwing money at the absolute top , which is a very slim wedge in NZ racing . Still throwing 500k at karaka races , Derby still 1mil along with numerous other top tier races , which do not justify the money in these times . 

Would any of these races suffer in quality if the stake was reduced by 25% or the karaka races were left to fend for themselves , no they wouldn't .

But at the same time whilst i applauded the application of starter payments what's the point when it's just taken from the winners purse , i genuinely get amazed at the stupidity of our management . Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul . Maybe if they had reduced top end stakes all lower and middle tier races could have had a top up . 

The problem is now the top end of racing , the clubs and stakes etc , is just getting bigger and bigger in relation to the rest of the industry , it's like we are squeezing racing from the bottom up . Why is NZ rugby so strong , it's base product , why is English football so strong , it's base product , Australian racing the same . Why is it we think we can buck that trend . It's got to topple eventually if the base keeps getting thinner .

The next 2-5 years i think will pretty much dictate if NZ racing can ever get out from under itself . It wont so long as we keep servicing the top end of each thread of our industry .

It wont if you keep the current management, the retrenchments/boot didn't go far enough, cut the dead wood, start afresh, you know where to start.

[nomates]

6 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

It wont if you keep the current management, the retrenchments/boot didn't go far enough, cut the dead wood, start afresh, you know where to start.

We keep starting afresh , been plenty of appointments that have given hope but time and again fail to deliver , the one constant in recent times has been the Australian connection . Where they go from here is anybody's guess . I'm about bottomed out by all the bullshit and as i said above the continual contraction of the heartland of racing , i never raced to get rich , along with many others , but the continual contempt of this great sport by so called leaders is despairing . 

I consider my self lucky i got to be involved thru one of the great periods of NZ racing 70's , 80's and 90's so can't complain , too much .

[nomates]

Interesting read .

       http://www.theoptimist.site/riccartons-synthetic-track-debate-heats-up-as-roadshow-heads-south/ 

•  

Edited September 18, 2020 by nomates

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

We keep starting afresh , been plenty of appointments that have given hope but time and again fail to deliver , the one constant in recent times has been the Australian connection . Where they go from here is anybody's guess . I'm about bottomed out by all the bullshit and as i said above the continual contraction of the heartland of racing , i never raced to get rich , along with many others , but the continual contempt of this great sport by so called leaders is despairing . 

I consider my self lucky i got to be involved thru one of the great periods of NZ racing 70's , 80's and 90's so can't complain , too much .

We're showing our age Nomates, we are starting to live on memories, how sad is that. I agree re the Oz connection though, isn't it a shame the homegrown product was considered not up to it? and the imports did exactly what, it's just tragic when you think it through.

[nomates]

2 minutes ago, nomates said:

Interesting read .

       http://www.theoptimist.site/riccartons-synthetic-track-debate-heats-up-as-roadshow-heads-south/ 

•  

Some interesting points brought up in this article by southern trainers , the big one being why would they run their horses on an A/W when their horses haven't worked on it . So will that go for trainers based more locally as well . Is it going to be Riccarton horses supplying the vast majority of runners .

Even M Pitman says he is hoping some of his horses will handle it .

The sad bit is the suggestion that a lot of trainers might not stay in the game if the lower SI racing shrinks too much because of the A/W picking up too many of their dates .

[curious]

http://www.theoptimist.site/riccartons-synthetic-track-debate-heats-up-as-roadshow-heads-south/

So Tim says " The annual cost of maintaining a Polytrack is dependent upon staff, equipment, the base, weather conditions and the amount of usage and the requirement of renovation, and is likely to be different for each track. I have seen documentation detailing annual costs of $1.56 million for maintenance of the Polytrack at the Singapore Jockey Club"

And then he says"“If it’s costing $5,000 a week, which is $250,000 a year, there is no way we can run it. Our information is it will cost between $55,000 and $65,000 a year to maintain, and if you look at what we pay to maintain grass tracks, the plough and sand tracks, it’s not in excess of that figure."

But they obviously have no idea. I'd say it can't be a goer and it seems that most SI trainers do not support it.

[nomates]

46 minutes ago, curious said:

But they obviously have no idea. I'd say it can't be a goer and it seems that most SI trainers do not support it.

Why would you go ahead with the A/W when there is clearly a lack of substantial support for it , a number of trainers are saying it is not required and are worried that it could have detrimental consequences for racing . 

Is this just administrators telling racing participants whats good for them , irrespective of the lack of support . 

[curious]

I'm hoping Tim's figure of 1.6m annual maintenance costs are $HKs. If so, his best estimate is somewhere between NZ50k and NZ300k per year for annual maintenance. You'd think they might want to narrow down that analysis a bit before they call any more pointless meetings spruiking the idea and then wonder why no-one bothers to show up.

Edited September 18, 2020 by curious

[nomates]

14 minutes ago, curious said:

I'm hoping Tim's figure of 1.6m annual maintenance costs are $HKs. If so, his best estimate is somewhere between NZ50k and NZ300k per year for annual maintenance. You'd think they might want to narrow down that analysis a bit before they call any more pointless meetings spruiking the idea and then wonder why no-one bothers to show up.

They also have to factor in an annual amount that they have to accrue for when the track needs an up grade somewhere down the track , that also could be 50k + p.a. 

 

[Freda]

7 hours ago, curious said:

I'm hoping Tim's figure of 1.6m annual maintenance costs are $HKs. If so, his best estimate is somewhere between NZ50k and NZ300k per year for annual maintenance. You'd think they might want to narrow down that analysis a bit before they call any more pointless meetings spruiking the idea and then wonder why no-one bothers to show up.

The 1 65 mill was referring to the Singapore Polytrack,  so I would assume that figure would be Singapore dollars,  not HK dollars.

That makes things a helluva lot pricier!

[curious]

35 minutes ago, Freda said:

The 1 65 mill was referring to the Singapore Polytrack,  so I would assume that figure would be Singapore dollars,  not HK dollars.

That makes things a helluva lot pricier!

Oops. Sure does. And a rather big gap from Tim's 50k a year although that is not seemingly allowing for the 10 year relayment cost.

“The question we need to address with the NZTR before anything is nailed down is how are we going to approach the situation in eight, ten or 12 years time when the material has to be relaid – that’s the question that still needs to be resolved."

It seems peculiar that they are spending all this money on design and planning and holding meetings without first figuring out the actual costs and whether or not it might be affordable.

[Freda]

16 minutes ago, curious said:

Oops. Sure does. And a rather big gap from Tim's 50k a year although that is not seemingly allowing for the 10 year relayment cost.

“The question we need to address with the NZTR before anything is nailed down is how are we going to approach the situation in eight, ten or 12 years time when the material has to be relaid – that’s the question that still needs to be resolved."

It seems peculiar that they are spending all this money on design and planning and holding meetings without first figuring out the actual costs and whether or not it might be affordable.

Yes.

And that is very likely the main reason [ apart from apathy ] that many stakeholders just can't be arsed going to these roadshows....because they don't get given any significant information.

I am told that the presentation by the engineers was excellent, however.

[Pitman]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

Yes.

And that is very likely the main reason [ apart from apathy ] that many stakeholders just can't be arsed going to these roadshows....because they don't get given any significant information.

I am told that the presentation by the engineers was excellent, however.

They are still awaiting answers, to the very same questions that people keep asking. 
The meeting was so the engineers could give their presentation and people were better informed.

Disappointing that more of the antagonist didn’t attend

[Freda]

1 minute ago, Pitman said:

They are still awaiting answers, to the very same questions that people keep asking. 
The meeting was so the engineers could give their presentation and people were better informed.

Disappointing that more of the antagonist didn’t attend

Yes, there were a few who really should have attended. 

[Joe Bloggs]

Wouldn't it be a tad difficult to keep your rag, temper, shit together, you get my drift, at a meeting where your destiny/career/life path is being discussed by people with absolutely no idea and a track record like a 30 start maiden?

I say destiny/career as if this money is pissed up against the wall like Petone management did for years and sent the entire industry to the wall, and was technically insolvent, then yes, another 15 mil plus and to suit who exactly? the bloke that doesn't want to travel? Ask that bloke who know everything to ring 50 Newmarket trainers, other than his new mate Gosden, do they enjoy the haul up the M1, A30, M25, M8 and M60 to places like Thirsk, Ayr, Haydock and to the West Country in snow and sleet in an English winter? They do it as they have winter runners, National Hunt, muddies, horses that thrive on true winter going and to appease and satisfy their loyal true blue owners who expect their trainer to take their charges to where they are best suited, NOT to where it best suits the trainer that doesn't like to travel......they didn't canvas BHA to put on jumping races on an AWT like the French did.......

We do it here in Oz, the distances are massive compared to little old NZ, but it's what you do for the best....man and beast combined. I'll say it again until it sinks in. Saundry being an Aussie should have set up a meeting with the Toowoomba Turf Club for a working session on why the helll they pulled their AWT/poly track up, AND why the Geelong Jockey Club went to hell in a hand basket over their tracks demise......you want to know what the vet bills were for eye and respiratory damage there, ask a few trainers down in VIC, they'll tell you....no such worries with a strathayr.......

[Chief Stipe]

One thing that really worries me is what strategic analysis has been done that assesses all the factors.  For example - environmental considerations.  Imagine what will happen when the Greenies cotton onto the "synthetic" aspects of the polyfill.  Sure its composition includes recycled waste but it is waste that wears and has to be dumped at some stage.  Micro-plastics/fibres, petroleum based waxes and other "contaminants" are all used. 

The industry is opening itself up to all sorts of scrutiny.  

Compare that to a Strathayr or even a well maintained traditional turf track and we are talking a natural surface.  The only thing synthetic about a Strathayr is the artificial mesh that is used to provide structure to the soil profile.  It is recyclable.

Although the polyfill is a lovely colour:

A horse won't get a spec of sand in its eye but a piece of carpet!

[Chief Stipe]

44 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

We do it here in Oz, the distances are massive compared to little old NZ, but it's what you do for the best....man and beast combined.

Yeah I hear you.  I've been following Aussie racing a lot more since Covid-19 kicked in.  Was the only play in town for a while!  I've mentioned before how I like looking up where these obscure tracks are in OZ on Google Maps.  Towns of 1,600 people in the outback with turf tracks and what seems the whole town in attendance!  But country racing aside I've also starting noticing the distances that City trainers travel to race their horses - aware that many do have satellite stables which lessens the distance.  

Snowden and Waller travel nearly weekly between Sydney and Newcastle to race horse.  The same distance as from Christchurch to Timaru.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Wouldn't it be a tad difficult to keep your rag, temper, shit together, you get my drift, at a meeting where your destiny/career/life path is being discussed by people with absolutely no idea and a track record like a 30 start maiden?

I'll take the maiden. Sounds like a better chance.

[Pitman]

4 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Wouldn't it be a tad difficult to keep your rag, temper, shit together, you get my drift, at a meeting where your destiny/career/life path is being discussed by people with absolutely no idea and a track record like a 30 start maiden?

I say destiny/career as if this money is pissed up against the wall like Petone management did for years and sent the entire industry to the wall, and was technically insolvent, then yes, another 15 mil plus and to suit who exactly? the bloke that doesn't want to travel? Ask that bloke who know everything to ring 50 Newmarket trainers, other than his new mate Gosden, do they enjoy the haul up the M1, A30, M25, M8 and M60 to places like Thirsk, Ayr, Haydock and to the West Country in snow and sleet in an English winter? They do it as they have winter runners, National Hunt, muddies, horses that thrive on true winter going and to appease and satisfy their loyal true blue owners who expect their trainer to take their charges to where they are best suited, NOT to where it best suits the trainer that doesn't like to travel......they didn't canvas BHA to put on jumping races on an AWT like the French did.......

We do it here in Oz, the distances are massive compared to little old NZ, but it's what you do for the best....man and beast combined. I'll say it again until it sinks in. Saundry being an Aussie should have set up a meeting with the Toowoomba Turf Club for a working session on why the helll they pulled their AWT/poly track up, AND why the Geelong Jockey Club went to hell in a hand basket over their tracks demise......you want to know what the vet bills were for eye and respiratory damage there, ask a few trainers down in VIC, they'll tell you....no such worries with a strathayr.......

If you are referring to me

Who said I don’t want to travel he who hides

I enjoy travelling as much as anyone, but I also enjoy racing at Riccarton - home base where hopefully 35 to 40 meetings a year will be held in the future

England, Japan, USA, Qatar, Australia (East and West) Bali, Langkawi, Penang, Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur are some destinations I have been to in last 18 months no I don’t like traveling! Even been to Cambridge, Auckland, Hamilton, Queenstown, Wanaka, Invercargill, Gore, Bluff, Timaru, Ashburton, Kurow, Riverton, Waikouaiti, Cromwell, Dunedin, Hanmer, Wellington, etc no I don’t want to travel

Edited September 19, 2020 by Pitman

[curious]

20 minutes ago, Pitman said:

If you are referring to me

Who said I don’t want to travel he who hides

I enjoy travelling as much as anyone, but I also enjoy racing at Riccarton - home base where hopefully 35 to 40 meetings a year will be held in the future

England, Japan, USA, Qatar, Australia (East and West) Bali, Langkawi, Penang, Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur are some destinations I have been to in last 18 months no I don’t like traveling! Even been to Cambridge, Auckland, Hamilton, Queenstown, Wanaka, Invercargill, Gore, Bluff, Timaru, Ashburton, Kurow, Riverton, Waikouaiti, Cromwell, Dunedin, Hanmer, Wellington, etc no I don’t want to travel

OK. Were you misquoted?

“Personally, and I’m looking at this through rose coloured glass. I am based at Riccarton and have my own property at Yaldhurst, and I want to see more racing at Riccarton, and I don’t want to travel anymore because I’m sick of it.

[Chief Stipe]

37 minutes ago, Pitman said:

England, Japan, USA, Qatar, Australia (East and West) Bali, Langkawi, Penang, Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur are some destinations I have been to in last 18 months no I don’t like traveling! Even been to Cambridge, Auckland, Hamilton, Queenstown, Wanaka, Invercargill, Gore, Bluff, Timaru, Ashburton, Kurow, Riverton, Waikouaiti, Cromwell, Dunedin, Hanmer, Wellington

Did you have a horse in your frequent flyer carry-on baggage?  What's the track like in Bali?  

[Pitman]

1 hour ago, curious said:

OK. Were you misquoted?

“Personally, and I’m looking at this through rose coloured glass. I am based at Riccarton and have my own property at Yaldhurst, and I want to see more racing at Riccarton, and I don’t want to travel anymore because I’m sick of it.

My apologies I did say that but let’s put it in the context I should have said “ I’m sick of traveling when we can have more racing at Riccarton” and that’s what I’m looking forward to in the future