Riccarton Track G3 or G2 or F1? 3 October 2020

[Joe Bloggs]

Am I seeing things? the maidens at Riccarton running sub 1-22 for the 1400? either the clock is buggered or the champion course curator has turned out a doozy, how many horses will go west today? Horse welfare, yep, means SFA at that track, the attrition trainer wont worry, he's got plenty to fill up the boxes vacated by the breakdowns, and there will be breakdowns....bloody disgusting.

[curious]

17 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Am I seeing things? the maidens at Riccarton running sub 1-22 for the 1400? either the clock is buggered or the champion course curator has turned out a doozy, how many horses will go west today? Horse welfare, yep, means SFA at that track, the attrition trainer wont worry, he's got plenty to fill up the boxes vacated by the breakdowns, and there will be breakdowns....bloody disgusting.

Pitty likes that track fast JB. It's about the only way it holds together. Bugger the horses.

[Chief Stipe]

Geez what's with all the clouds of sand?  Have they already had a Polyfiller delivery?

Didn't look like the "best turf track in NZ"!

[Pitman]

14 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Am I seeing things? the maidens at Riccarton running sub 1-22 for the 1400? either the clock is buggered or the champion course curator has turned out a doozy, how many horses will go west today? Horse welfare, yep, means SFA at that track, the attrition trainer wont worry, he's got plenty to fill up the boxes vacated by the breakdowns, and there will be breakdowns....bloody disgusting.

Can you put your name to your comments instead of hiding?

How many winners have you trained?

Watchmaker, not your average maiden

We care greatly about all horses we train and don't have an endless supply if the above refers to us.

all 17 runners we had in have pulled up well including the one that fibrillated. 

Don't hide be brave enough to tell us who you are 

We train more than our fair share of winners at Riccarton and they keep coming back and doing it again and again, often on tracks rated 3 or less. El Chico was a great example won 2 Stewards, 3 Timaru Herald Stakes a Timaru Cup 24 wins and $667K, raced for 10 seasons and won races every one of them, he loved it like concrete and was still winning as a 12 year old have you ever been associated with a horse like that. Retired 100% sound

Edited October 3, 2020 by Pitman

[Chief Stipe]

5 hours ago, Pitman said:

often on tracks rated 3 or less

I thought tracks were supposed to be presented no better than 3?

Yesterday wasn't G3 as officially posted but a G2 if not an F1.

As I posted earlier in the week the Riccarton turf has issues.  A bog when wet, gluey in-between and as hard as concrete when dry and not irrigated.

Unless sand has been applied the clouds of dust kicking up down the straight yesterday were evidence of dry mud and proving the soil structure is stuffed.

I'll repeat - all fine and dandy building a new All Weather Track but where is the funding coming from to fix the Turf Track?

Further the argument that not racing on the track during the worst months will help it "rejuvenate" doesn't seem to have happened this year with a lengthy spell!

Questions should be asked of yesterday's steward's and the track manager.  Afterall trainers have to accept what they are given.

I doubt ANY trainer can put hand on heart and say the surface yesterday was only a G3 and was a good surface to race on.

[curious]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I thought tracks were supposed to be presented no better than 3?

Yesterday wasn't G3 as officially posted but a G2 if not an F1.

As I posted earlier in the week the Riccarton turf has issues.  A bog when wet, gluey in-between and as hard as concrete when dry and not irrigated.

 

It's been like that for 30 years. Was pretty decent prior.

[Chief Stipe]

Given the times they ran at Riccarton yesterday was the track really presented as a G3?  

The track was given 16mm of irrigation on Tuesday afternoon/night taking it from a Dead 4 to a Dead 5 on Wednesday.  It had returned to a Dead 4 on Friday and that afternoon 4mm of water was applied.

At 6:30am on raceday the track was a G3.  It wasn't upgraded during the day.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

6 hours ago, Pitman said:

Can you put your name to your comments instead of hiding?

How many winners have you trained?

Watchmaker, not your average maiden

We care greatly about all horses we train and don't have an endless supply if the above refers to us.

all 17 runners we had in have pulled up well including the one that fibrillated. 

Don't hide be brave enough to tell us who you are 

We train more than our fair share of winners at Riccarton and they keep coming back and doing it again and again, often on tracks rated 3 or less. El Chico was a great example won 2 Stewards, 3 Timaru Herald Stakes a Timaru Cup 24 wins and $667K, raced for 10 seasons and won races every one of them, he loved it like concrete and was still winning as a 12 year old have you ever been associated with a horse like that. Retired 100% sound

My dicks bigger than yours, I'm not getting into one of those with you, it's shows your mentality, you should have garnered enough nouse to know by now I at least have trained winners albeit here in Oz and not there, especially on the tarmac you and your mate serve up to the other poor buggers. being able to cop criticism and grow from it is an admirable trait, once you can do that, you'll grow as a man and an industry luminary.

I trained a very good sprinter, once, he was by Sadlers Wells bro, Tate Gallery, he had very soft bones, I nursed him, and placed him best I could on tracks that were forgiving, Won his maiden by 7 lengths at Hawkesbury giving Dwayne Dunn his first win in NSW by the way, but if I had of had him at Riccarton he would have broken down, same as the top stayer I had that I nursed, out of Artiface, he smashed an OZ metro track record the day he should have been in the Cox Plate, that's another story, but if I had of had him on your goat track he would.have broken down too.....don't preach to me about your old warhorse, for every one of those there's a sad tail of whoa for the ones gone bad on goat tracks.....our last runner in NZ went bad after running on your goat track a year back, he never came back and is now in the paddock waiting to be rehomed by a lovely young girl that doted on him, shall I send you and your mate the vet bill and training fees?

[Joe Bloggs]

43 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I thought tracks were supposed to be presented no better than 3?

Yesterday wasn't G3 as officially posted but a G2 if not an F1.

As I posted earlier in the week the Riccarton turf has issues.  A bog when wet, gluey in-between and as hard as concrete when dry and not irrigated.

Unless sand has been applied the clouds of dust kicking up down the straight yesterday were evidence of dry mud and proving the soil structure is stuffed.

I'll repeat - all fine and dandy building a new All Weather Track but where is the funding coming from to fix the Turf Track?

Further the argument that not racing on the track during the worst months will help it "rejuvenate" doesn't seem to have happened this year with a lengthy spell!

Questions should be asked of yesterday's steward's and the track manager.  Afterall trainers have to accept what they are given.

I doubt ANY trainer can put hand on heart and say the surface yesterday was only a G3 and was a good surface to race on.

Thank God I'm not Robinson Crusoe, running 1-7 in early Oct? the first winner might be well above average, but a maiden running that time 1-21 and change is worrying, he wont have longevity if that is served up to him constantly, although the trainer doesn't seem to care.....it's in fact a horse welfare issue surely, why don't the owners association speak up or are they stifled?

[Pitman]

WATCHMAKER, That's what we waited for a firm track and he won accordingly. Pulled up great, bucking his brands off this morning.

Answer this do you think Grey Way would win as many races if he was racing now on the doctored up over irrigated tracks we seem to get more often than not.

[Reefton]

I was there, thought it was a beautifully presented track (and God knows that is not always the case at Riccarton) and you need to factor in  the tail wind and the fact it is a huge track so you expect fast times in the right conditions. Didn't see or hear of too many jarred up horses.  

Let's just be pleased to get back to decent tracks again  - I will have a G2/G3 any day over an H11.

If they can run 57 for a 1020m at Reefton it is not unreasonable to expect them to run 55 for a 1000 at Riccarton.  Or 1.07 for 1200. And Pitty is right - one of the greatest character horses of our lifetime Grey Way would have long since faded from the memory had he raced in the current day with them pissing water on tracks at every turn

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, Reefton said:

I was there, thought it was a beautifully presented track (and God knows that is not always the case at Riccarton) and you need to factor in  the tail wind and the fact it is a huge track so you expect fast times in the right conditions. Didn't see or hear of too many jarred up horses.  

Were you being "entertained" in the Presidents bar Reefton?  

 

[Chief Stipe]

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Pitty is right - one of the greatest character horses of our lifetime Grey Way would have long since faded from the memory had he raced in the current day with them pissing water on tracks at every turn

I've actually done some research on Grey Way - I doubt he would have won 50+ on AWT's however the tracks he raced in were a damn sight forgiving than the one we saw yesterday.  Not only that they were in their prime.  The variation between the hard and the heavy was less than it is now.

As for not irrigating - nearly an inch was put on the track during the week.

[Joe Bloggs]

Yep, the view is different from the Prezo's room alright, the bruising from the backslapping was horrendous!

Oh, talking about the old days Chief, I rode in a race against the mighty Triton once, Levin or Foxton I just can't recall, but I do remember they ran 1-9 that day and everyone was saying how quick that was and how great the track was. Triton was a better horse than Greyway IMO as he raced against some wonderful horses over here, like Gunsynd and co, but the tracks we had back then were magic, soles of grass thicker than the glove puppets comments......isn't it great to be able to compare, to remember back that far, and yes, I'm bitter and twisted over Riccarton as it cost us a very good horse....so sit on it!

[curious]

I saw a lot of Grey Ways wins and most were not on the concrete and dust we saw at Riccarton yesterday.

[Chief Stipe]

To be fair when comparing the times for the day the early times were exceptional but tended to be comparatively slower as the day progressed.  

[Joe Bloggs]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

To be fair when comparing the times for the day the early times were exceptional but tended to be comparatively slower as the day progressed.  

Except for the 1-7 that we were all chuckling about at the coast races........

[Joe Bloggs]

Or some not chuckling, those with an axe to grind like.

[Joe Bloggs]

I note in the stewards reports many horses mentioned re '' didn't handle todays track conditions' and many horses where the postillion just coughed with '' can't offer any tangible excuse'....what a bloody joke and disgrace......

[Freda]

I know the trainers in the other side of the stable block i lease  came home and administered bute to their runners to ease their discomfort. 

[Pitman]

I believe its how you condition your horses

Personally I am and always will be a huge fan of Arthur Lydiard's thoughts.

His group of athletes trained around the sealed roads in Auckland, not at stadiums. They conditioned bones, ligaments, tendons, etc

Freda will confirm that we mostly use the hard, roughened grass training tracks at Riccarton, we do have longevity with our horses AND WE BUILT OUR BUSINESS DOING SO WITH BROKEN DOWN OR CAST OFFS FROM OTHER STABLES.

AND WE DO CARE

It is only in recent years we have built up a nice team of young untried horses to develop.

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Pitman said:

His group of athletes trained around the sealed roads in Auckland, not at stadiums. They conditioned bones, ligaments, tendons, etc

 

So how does an AWT fit into that approach?

As for Arthur Lydiard's training approach the key to his philosophy was building an aerobic base by doing the miles BEFORE introducing fast work.  He DID NOT recommend running on sealed roads to build that base.  His team of runners could be found running on all sorts of surfaces including tracks in the Western Hills, sand dunes and golf courses.  The key was lots of miles to build up an aerobic conditioning base.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So how does an AWT fit into that approach?

As for Arthur Lydiard's training approach the key to his philosophy was building an aerobic base by doing the miles BEFORE introducing fast work.  He DID NOT recommend running on sealed roads to build that base.  His team of runners could be found running on all sorts of surfaces including tracks in the Western Hills, sand dunes and golf courses.  The key was lots of miles to build up an aerobic conditioning base.

 

My old Man broke a NZ record for 880 yards at Cooks Gardens Wanganui in about 1938, he only held the record for a week or so until Pat Boot broke it, my old man had his leg blown to smithereens while trying to escape Crete, he had shit on the liver for the rest of his life blaming Hitler for ruining his Olympic dream.......the old man trained himself, he used Arthur Lydiard's technique the rest of his life to keep himself fit, he swore Lydiard was a genius, but he stumped me one day when he came to stay while I was training at Flemington, ''why don't you take your horses to the sand dunes'' he said, yep, we had plenty of those at Flemington, he was a classic my Dad, a fitness freak, shame I didn't inherit those qualities.

[nomates]

I'm not going to get onto the debate about the track and i respect the opinions on both sides , what i will say that i believe Mr Pitman does a great job with his older horses and the longevity of some of these horses careers bear testament to his training regimes . I have no fear backing his horses and you don't often see his horses fail to hold form once they are into their preparations , along with having the his horses being able to race for a decent length of preparation .