Track - Riccarton Park-Canterbury JC | Saturday 14 November

[Shad]

That's a good call, you may be looking for a long time, ifvonly it was that easy.

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

I'm still trying to think of a wealthy ex-trainer.

Yeah, that might have been a bridge too far.

[Joe Bloggs]

Just now, Joe Bloggs said:

Yeah, that might have been a bridge too far.

And an oxymoron Freda?

[Freda]

On 18/11/2020 at 9:57 AM, Freda said:

 

Similarly,  the current track management is not responsible for the soil structure....but they have to try and work with what they have.

Not an easy job I wouldn't think.

I agree, reconstruction of the turf would be ideal,  but it won't happen unless there is a cash injection from somewhere. 

Of course, this is all completely hypothetical - but, if the turf track was reconstructed, where does racing happen in the interim? 

NZ Cup on the allweather?  perhaps, Rangiora? nope, closed. Motukarara?  same.  Timaru ? soon to be surplus.      Maybe a few trips over the hill to avail ourselves of Reefton's hospitality.?

When the first reconstruction was carried out, we raced at both Motukarara and Rangiora.  Pleasant and enjoyable days, and worked just fine.  Now those venues are kicked into touch, there isn't much wriggle room, is there?

[Joe Bloggs]

The only thing 'kicked into touch' should be NZTR management and their southern collaborators?

[Shad]

We dare not mention track reconstruction, any one want to offer a few more that have been fiddled with , and ended up worse off, kumara one of the front runners for sure.

[Huey]

7 hours ago, Shad said:

We dare not mention track reconstruction, any one want to offer a few more that have been fiddled with , and ended up worse off, kumara one of the front runners for sure.

Awapuni & Otaki or have they already been mentioned?

It goes without saying the tampering of dates and the deceitful Venue rort established by NZTR has played its part also.

[Reefton]

On 22/11/2020 at 7:41 AM, Freda said:

Of course, this is all completely hypothetical - but, if the turf track was reconstructed, where does racing happen in the interim? 

NZ Cup on the allweather?  perhaps, Rangiora? nope, closed. Motukarara?  same.  Timaru ? soon to be surplus.      Maybe a few trips over the hill to avail ourselves of Reefton's hospitality.?

When the first reconstruction was carried out, we raced at both Motukarara and Rangiora.  Pleasant and enjoyable days, and worked just fine.  Now those venues are kicked into touch, there isn't much wriggle room, is there?

Well Greymouth's track was a mess (surprise surprise -  it was reconstructed about ten or fifteen years ago with NZTR and 'expert' supervision).  They asked Peter O'Malley what he thought then attacked it with a chisel plough (Great long steel spike with a foot on the bottom that breaks up the compacted ground and aerated it underneath) . As shown in January the track was immensely improved.  Drainage so much better.  Whether that would work at Riccarton with the drier climate but it worked here.  Slow process but a bloody site easier than re-laying the whole thing.  They could have done it after Cup week, raced the December meeting at Ashburton and been ready for their feature meetings in late Jan to May. 

That is what I would try but I listen to farmers(and bloody good ones too) not turf experts.  O'Malley hasn't got too many diplomas but has got a lot of experience and a fair dose of common sense ( though that is not an attribute the experts of today seem to rate)

[curious]

Subsoiling the clay pan at Riccarton would seem like a waste of time to me. I think it would just seal back up in no time. It needs to be completely removed and a sandy base installed IMO. Anyway, they have lateral drains don't they? A subsoil plough would rip them to shreds.

[Reefton]

9 minutes ago, curious said:

Subsoiling the clay pan at Riccarton would seem like a waste of time to me. I think it would just seal back up in no time. It needs to be completely removed and a sandy base installed IMO. Anyway, they have lateral drains don't they? A subsoil plough would rip them to shreds.

probably fair comment(and why I said it might not work).  Depending how deep those drains are you could regulate how deep the plough goes and there is no reason you could not repeat the process over and over if it sealed up again(just buy an effing big tractor and a plough of your own).   I am pretty sure they will have put clay into Greymouth(though maybe not drains).  Why anyone would put clay into a track here has got me stuffed but they turned a really quick draining riverbed track into a shit hole in short order.  Until they(GJC) took drastic action that is

[curious]

Yes I agree it would possibly be a fair temporary measure if it didn't interfere with the cross drainage and you could keep doing it.

[curious]

Maybe not a bad option for lateral drainage either cf the much shallower sand slitting.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Reefton said:

probably fair comment(and why I said it might not work).  Depending how deep those drains are you could regulate how deep the plough goes and there is no reason you could not repeat the process over and over if it sealed up again(just buy an effing big tractor and a plough of your own).   I am pretty sure they will have put clay into Greymouth(though maybe not drains).  Why anyone would put clay into a track here has got me stuffed but they turned a really quick draining riverbed track into a shit hole in short order.  Until they(GJC) took drastic action that is

Yes but you are using mechanical methods to fix an underlying problem - the soil structure is fucked.

Tell me - how many farmers don't rest their paddocks and grow sacrificial crops to improve soil structure nowadays?

Reefton you don't put compost into your vege garden just to add nutrients.

[curious]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes but you are using mechanical methods to fix an underlying problem - the soil structure is fucked.

Tell me - how many farmers don't rest their paddocks and grow sacrificial crops to improve soil structure nowadays?

Reefton you don't put compost into your vege garden just to add nutrients.

Yes but you can fix the topsoil structure with a plough though that would take the track out of action for 12-24 months. The problem is if you plough Riccarton, at least half of what you are ploughing will be clay and you'll be neatly rolling that on top of the top soil. It's too shallow and was built like that. A massive F up. If they'd just ploughed it and levelled out the undulations in the straight the first time, they'd probably only need to do the same again 30 years later.

I just took delivery of 40 metres of soil mix for some orchard tree planting we are doing. It's similar to my vege garden soil and going on a sandy base. Equal parts topsoil, compost and pumice. Plants need air (soil structure), drainage (base), water (irrigation) and food (fertiliser),

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, curious said:

Yes but you can fix the topsoil structure with a plough though that would take the track out of action for 12-24 months. The problem is if you plough Riccarton, at least half of what you are ploughing will be clay and you'll be neatly rolling that on top of the top soil. It's too shallow and was built like that. A massive F up. If they'd just ploughed it and levelled out the undulations in the straight the first time, they'd probably only need to do the same again 30 years later.

I just took delivery of 40 metres of soil mix for some orchard tree planting we are doing. It's similar to my vege garden soil and going on a sandy base. Equal parts topsoil, compost and pumice. Plants need air (soil structure), drainage (base), water (irrigation) and food (fertiliser),

Nope you are making the same mistakes that our track managers are.  Structure has three components which affects the other three that you mention - drainage, water, food (minerals).

[Freda]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Subsoiling the clay pan at Riccarton would seem like a waste of time to me. I think it would just seal back up in no time. It needs to be completely removed and a sandy base installed IMO. Anyway, they have lateral drains don't they? A subsoil plough would rip them to shreds.

Lance Robinson was able to have a look at [some] of the lateral drains at one point...he said, drains had spiderwebs in them, clearly the water wasn't getting to them.

[curious]

25 minutes ago, Freda said:

Lance Robinson was able to have a look at [some] of the lateral drains at one point...he said, drains had spiderwebs in them, clearly the water wasn't getting to them.

Might be a good idea to rip them up with a subsoiler then! It's hard to get water to drain through clay. Though at a track near me they tried to get it to drain uphill but that didn't work well either.

Edited November 24, 2020 by curious

[Freda]

From what I can envisage - and a fair amount of 'creative' thinking involved here, I'm not a drainage or construction hero -   the clay and scoria under the topsoil was supposed to provide a camber to guide the water to the drains along the inner.

That may have worked initially,  but, as Duncan Laing  [of Laing's Construction]   explained to me, the manual he had provided for the track manager at the time, didn't get passed on to the following managers [ so he thought ].  There was not supposed to be any deep cultivation at all, as that would bring the clay up to mix with the topsoil.    That seems to be just what has happened and the makeup  of the turf is consistent with a goodly amount of clay mixed in.

[Reefton]

Can someone list the tracks that have not had problems when they have been 'renovated'?  Over the years virtually every one they have touched has ended up as a disaster. Invercargill, Wingatui, Ashburton, Kumara, Greymouth, Riccarton, Rangiora, Trentham, Awapuni, Te Rapa, Pukekohe, Ellerslie.  Some might have come right now but all had issues didn't they?

And although there are not too many untouched multiple day tracks there are equally not too many of those with issues are there?

Edited November 24, 2020 by Reefton

[curious]

56 minutes ago, Freda said:

 the makeup  of the turf is consistent with a goodly amount of clay mixed in.

What makes you say that Freda?

And how did the clay get mixed in with the topsoil? Did they groundhog it or something?

[Freda]

57 minutes ago, curious said:

What makes you say that Freda?

And how did the clay get mixed in with the topsoil? Did they groundhog it or something?

Glue when wet and concrete when dry 

 

[Freda]

2 hours ago, curious said:

What makes you say that Freda?

And how did the clay get mixed in with the topsoil? Did they groundhog it or something?

If you refer to my above post,  Duncan Laing implied that that had happened. 

He obviously couldn't be definite, but his experience and knowledge of the reconstruction process led him to believe that deeper cultivation than he had advised had taken place.

[curious]

14 hours ago, Freda said:

From what I can envisage - and a fair amount of 'creative' thinking involved here, I'm not a drainage or construction hero -   the clay and scoria under the topsoil was supposed to provide a camber to guide the water to the drains along the inner.

OK. Thanks. Had to sleep on that theory but am still scratching my head. From my observation where surplus water is lodged on a camber it runs down the surface. I don't see how it would run between the topsoil and the clay, at least not without continually taking topsoil with it.

Also there's no camber in the straights is there? How were they supposed to drain?

[Freda]

25 minutes ago, curious said:

OK. Thanks. Had to sleep on that theory but am still scratching my head. From my observation where surplus water is lodged on a camber it runs down the surface. I don't see how it would run between the topsoil and the clay, at least not without continually taking topsoil with it.

Also there's no camber in the straights is there? How were they supposed to drain?

Well I'm scratching my head too...because I can't see how it was supposed to work either.

The amount of topsoil laid wouldn't have grown decent carrots. 

There is a slight camber in the straight - just ask Pitty - because he always maintained that watering the outside was counter productive as the water just ended up on the inside.

Apart from all that, water is not going to percolate through clay, so what other option can there be?

[Freda]

I can't recall whether lateral drains were included initially - probably they were,  but certainly since, including down the back straight where conditions are very different from the home straight.