nomates Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 All they had to do was offer BGP a 10% bonus on top and i think most would have been happy with that , as it is the price they gave was over 50% what i thought it would pay , i thought no way this isn't the quinella , should pay about $1.60 . Personally i think it's more about both entities w**king each other off . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Are there anyone BOAY'ERS who have an opinion on whether the exclusive BGP Fixed Odds bet was legal in terms of the Racing and Wagering Acts? Or if it contravened Fair Trading or Financial Markets legislation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Are there anyone BOAY'ERS who have an opinion on whether the exclusive BGP Fixed Odds bet was legal in terms of the Racing and Wagering Acts? Or if it contravened Fair Trading or Financial Markets legislation? Is it legal for the TAB to only offer one customer a certain type of bet, yet no other customer allowed same odds? A bit like lotto allowing one customer to bet into a pool with better odds?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 57 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Is it legal for the TAB to only offer one customer a certain type of bet, yet no other customer allowed same odds? A bit like lotto allowing one customer to bet into a pool with better odds?? I have my doubts that it is legal. Especially when they are trying to use legislative means to enforce anti-competitive ways to force local punters to punt with them rather than other providers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Well if they laid the bet off into the ordinary pool(as has been suggested) then they have straight out ripped off successful quinella punters by slashing the dividend. And that (unfortunately) is fraud One senses the way that ordinary tote odds are prone to diving close to start time when they are significantly higher than the fixed odds that it is possible that is going on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, Reefton said: Well if they laid the bet off into the ordinary pool(as has been suggested) then they have straight out ripped off successful quinella punters by slashing the dividend. And that (unfortunately) is fraud One senses the way that ordinary tote odds are prone to diving close to start time when they are significantly higher than the fixed odds that it is possible that is going on. Laying off onto the tote isn't illegal as such. I think it is dodgy that the average punter can't see that it is has happened until AFTER the tote has closed. They explain that away by saying it takes time to balance the books. There is not reason why it can't be done in real time. Where it is a bit dodgy in this case and an allegation of fraud may have some substance is that the Fixed Odds Quinella book only had ONE punter in it and it wasn't available to anyone else THEN they liability was played in the tote Quinella pool late. I've heard stories of this type of "favoured" betting offers occurring before but not as public as this one. One industry person who has far more contacts than I'll ever have is adamant that an investigation should be undertaken of previous transactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Laying off onto the tote isn't illegal as such. I think it is dodgy that the average punter can't see that it is has happened until AFTER the tote has closed. They explain that away by saying it takes time to balance the books. There is not reason why it can't be done in real time. Where it is a bit dodgy in this case and an allegation of fraud may have some substance is that the Fixed Odds Quinella book only had ONE punter in it and it wasn't available to anyone else THEN they liability was played in the tote Quinella pool late. I've heard stories of this type of "favoured" betting offers occurring before but not as public as this one. One industry person who has far more contacts than I'll ever have is adamant that an investigation should be undertaken of previous transactions. Dunno about it not being illegal. If I had a $10k quinella that might have paid (say) $2.50 and it came down to $1.70 due to them plonking their own bets into the pool I don't know that that would be acceptable under the Fair Trading Act. Sort of like vendor bids at auction - you aren't going to be too happy to find you have been run up on vendor bids. Different if they lay off onto the Aussie pools but they are artificially manipulating things to reduce their financial loss At Kumara a bloke I know backed a horse on the ordinary tote at $5.20 a minute or two before the start and it dropped to $3.80 - coincidentally rather close to its fixed odds close(insofar as I know he is not a huge punter) Is it fair? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Reefton said: Dunno about it not being illegal. If I had a $10k quinella that might have paid (say) $2.50 and it came down to $1.70 due to them plonking their own bets into the pool I don't know that that would be acceptable under the Fair Trading Act. Sort of like vendor bids at auction - you aren't going to be too happy to find you have been run up on vendor bids. It's not illegal - there is not law or regulation stopping the TAB from minimising their risk. At the end of the day they have a legislated responsibility to maximise profits for the racing industry (and now sports). Part of that process is to manage risk. The issue in my opinion is that the true market price is not transparent at all times. They shouldn't be able to lay off their bets in such a way that the punter can't see that reflected in the price while the tote is still open. From time to time in a pub agency I've watched the odds on the screen right up to closing and then seen the prices change substantially after the horses have raced 800m! There is no technical reason why the odds are not updated and displayed in real time. Imagine the uproar if the share market operated like that! Is it fair? No as the TAB can manipulate market information. It isn't efficient either. As I keep saying the key issue in this case is that the bet the BGP got was not available to the market at a premium price. The TAB covered their risk by gouging their loyal customers late in the market under the cloak of odds update delay! In my opinion there should be some rules legislated that protect the customer. For example in Australia there are minimum bets that the Operators MUST accept. Here the TAB don't have to accept any bet and can restrict some punters. In my opinion that is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 14 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: It's not illegal - there is not law or regulation stopping the TAB from minimising their risk. At the end of the day they have a legislated responsibility to maximise profits for the racing industry (and now sports). Part of that process is to manage risk. The issue in my opinion is that the true market price is not transparent at all times. They shouldn't be able to lay off their bets in such a way that the punter can't see that reflected in the price while the tote is still open. From time to time in a pub agency I've watched the odds on the screen right up to closing and then seen the prices change substantially after the horses have raced 800m! There is no technical reason why the odds are not updated and displayed in real time. Imagine the uproar if the share market operated like that! Is it fair? No as the TAB can manipulate market information. It isn't efficient either. As I keep saying the key issue in this case is that the bet the BGP got was not available to the market at a premium price. The TAB covered their risk by gouging their loyal customers late in the market under the cloak of odds update delay! In my opinion there should be some rules legislated that protect the customer. For example in Australia there are minimum bets that the Operators MUST accept. Here the TAB don't have to accept any bet and can restrict some punters. In my opinion that is wrong. Yes well, you would have discovered MBL's from reading moi's disgust about this fact... ...but it's the Governing body, NZTR, ( as indeed it is in Oz, Racing NSW et el ) that requires Wagering organisations to accept bets to at least WIN something...Minimum Bet Limits https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/minimum-bet-limits-state/amp/ WRT the BGP outrage...I always go to the sauce of any festering issue where peeps are needlessly ruminating...like yous fellas Ian Long's your man at the TAB ian.long@tab.co.nz Fire off your concerns and post the reply here so we all get the oil...best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Speaking of contacting the TAB - when does Saville move on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZRacing Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 21 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Speaking of contacting the TAB - when does Saville move on? He left end of November. Whoever wrote the heading below is either having a laugh or like the NZ Racing Industry Saville has conned them. He probably put the NZ TAB back 10 years when they were already 10 years behind the opposition. https://igamingbusiness.com/sg-brings-in-nz-tab-veteran-to-lead-trading-operations/ He is a veteran but in the bullshit department not in the wagering world. At least the new Management will no doubt ensure that anyone who was appointed to a managerial position through past workmates,family friends or crawled their way up the ranks with nil wagering and managerial experience and ability will get the chop. That's how the real world works but then again we are talking about the NZ TAB one of the most mismanaged organisations run in NZ over the last few years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZRacing Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Quote ian.long@tab.co.nz God is he still there?, another liability from Allen's past employtment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZRacing Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Quote I've heard stories of this type of "favoured" betting offers occurring before but not as public as this one. One industry person who has far more contacts than I'll ever have is adamant that an investigation should be undertaken of previous transactions. Ha McKenzie organised back in March an investigation into the $6 million bonus gate situation. Promised to supply the Industry with the Independent Investigation findings yet didn't happen. You don't have to be too bright to work out why. Transparency as promised at its best yet again. The place needs someone with wagering experience from overseas to do a forensic financial investigation. Local accountants are nil as they are nil on wagering and get bullshitted to by the TAB and believe it. Investigator would also need to talk to ex employees to be given a head start as to where and why as to areas to look into. 100% the crap that I have heard that would be found would make a Steven King novel look like a fairy tale. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZRacing Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Quote Speaking of contacting the TAB - when does Saville move on? The outfit Saville has gone to work for is owned by the same outfit who also owns Open Bet. Things that make you go mmmm. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 As of this morning Saville was still employed on the website About Us - Leadership Team at TAB NZ. Maybe he is job sharing until his replacement arrives? Or are we being subjected to the oldest vendor con in the book - hire the "friendly" guy on the Exec of the company that became your biggest customer and leave him in the hen house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 On 24/01/2021 at 8:38 AM, Taupiri Wonder said: Two minutes before the jump,Quinella Pool was showing $57k and Willpay $1.30 Final Pool $96k Dividend $1.70 Did they Layoff!Who knows!! Are you sure about the late loading of the pool? I read someone else say they observed the same thing. Of course we have other "experts" saying the TAB wouldn't do that. In terms of transparency in a truly fair market the odds would update in real time NOT after the horses have run 800m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMark Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Are you sure about the late loading of the pool? I read someone else say they observed the same thing. Of course we have other "experts" saying the TAB wouldn't do that. In terms of transparency in a truly fair market the odds would update in real time NOT after the horses have run 800m. yes i observed this too. This is why it would seem only logical that the BGP was a late introduction to the pool. And note, there was no dramatic change to the win and place pool. Dont you think aswell, if someone was unloading a quantum bet into the quinella pool it would have been mentioned via trackside, not necessarily but most probably. No other race either on the card had such a increase to the pool towards close of rae, quinella pools were relatively consistent through the day, i dont think any of the pools bar the last surpassed 55k off memory. no, the pretend expert is JJ flash, just a muppet. I just cant understand the stupidity of some people. I personally dont really care. But as reefton points out, if you took that quinella on the tote, you got robbed by the tab, and your return was used to subsidize the return BGP got, that plan and simple is fucked and not fair 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 14 minutes ago, MarkyMark said: But as reefton points out, if you took that quinella on the tote, you got robbed by the tab, and your return was used to subsidize the return BGP got, that plan and simple is fucked and not fair Well tell me an average punter that would turn down being able to punt big all day at premium odds, get your loss refunded plus a 25% bonus bet! I'm not sure what the BGP total pool was but assuming it was $200k then $8k of industry revenue was given away. That's one less Maiden race stake! I'm really pleased it makes the BGP members feel special as I'm sure that special feeling will translate into increased revenue........eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, NZRacing said: God is he still there?, another liability from Allen's past employtment. Apparently..... ...look...after reading this missive doesn't it give you confidence he knows wtf he's on about...or possibly sfa The $40,000 outlay on a three-dog win multi to scoop $260,000 last month came unstuck when the first of his trio of favourites, Uthor Bale, finished second. In the next race Archie John Hill placed third so Starburst George’s victory in race 11 was immaterial. “It is certainly up there, there are some bets that go very, very high,” said the head of public affairs for TAB New Zealand Ian Long. Edited January 26, 2021 by Thomass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Well tell me an average punter that would turn down being able to punt big all day at premium odds, get your loss refunded plus a 25% bonus bet! I'm not sure what the BGP total pool was but assuming it was $200k then $8k of industry revenue was given away. That's one less Maiden race stake! I'm really pleased it makes the BGP members feel special as I'm sure that special feeling will translate into increased revenue........eventually. They are the future of the industry and have to be treated as such we should all be bending over backwards to have them in the game, you just have to listen to them to know how important they are to the sport. Don't you know us oldies are lucky to have them around. If they don't get treated well they might take their toys and go play on the polo circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Are you sure about the late loading of the pool? I read someone else say they observed the same thing. Of course we have other "experts" saying the TAB wouldn't do that. In terms of transparency in a truly fair market the odds would update in real time NOT after the horses have run 800m. Pool differentials are now so stark they bare no resemblance to Jump off tote... Perhaps they're too lazy to update every 30 seconds close to start time... ...or their reconciliation with the Oz tote only happens AFTER the finish? Just the other day at Whanganui the winner was showing 8's at the jump and ended up post race 4.6 fav... Thats UNFORGIVABLE Its got to be Australian money entering the pool to have changed that much...Shirley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 3 hours ago, NZRacing said: Ha McKenzie organised back in March an investigation into the $6 million bonus gate situation. Promised to supply the Industry with the Independent Investigation findings yet didn't happen. You don't have to be too bright to work out why. Transparency as promised at its best yet again. The place needs someone with wagering experience from overseas to do a forensic financial investigation. Local accountants are nil as they are nil on wagering and get bullshitted to by the TAB and believe it. Investigator would also need to talk to ex employees to be given a head start as to where and why as to areas to look into. 100% the crap that I have heard that would be found would make a Steven King novel look like a fairy tale. You know I think the new Minister Robertson needs alerting about this shit show...he could have a wee high tea with the Internal Affairs Minister and sort it out Here... g.robertson@ministers.govt.nz Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 8 minutes ago, Thomass said: You know I think the new Minister Robertson needs alerting about this shit show...he could have a wee high tea with the Internal Affairs Minister and sort it out Here... g.robertson@ministers.govt.nz Good luck It's ok Thomarse I'm sure the Government reads BOAY. Well the TAB does so I'm sure their boss does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: It's ok Thomarse I'm sure the Government reads BOAY. Well the TAB does so I'm sure their boss does. Oh yea...maybe...baby... But Lets gets serious.... ...much of the pontificating that goes on here could be solved by a well directed query from Ed Leary types... ..direct to the suits that matter...even if they don't...but think they do... ..which covers much of the white shirts...excepting epidemiologists of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, Thomass said: Oh yea...maybe...baby... But Lets gets serious.... ...much of the pontificating that goes on here could be solved by a well directed query from Ed Leary types... ..direct to the suits that matter...even if they don't...but think they do... ..which covers much of the white shirts...excepting epidemiologists of course... Since when have you started following your own advice? Have you been banned from Twitter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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