List of the number of drug positives in Harness Racing in the last 10 years.

[Newmarket]

36 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Ok I get what you and Newmarket are on about now.  The inference is that another stables employee nobbled another's horse with Ketoprofen.

That isn't within the criteria of this exercise.

To reiterate there is little evidence from positive tests that there is widespread horse doping occurring in the harness racing industry.

3 cases a year the vast majority of which are mistakes doesn't constitute widespread fraud from my point of view.

But you guys keep bagging the industry you supposedly support.

Toss in the milkshake scandal, blue magic, yeah we dont have a problem. 
 

Somebody will remember, wasnt some horses disqualified from an inter dom at addington, was it lightning blues year? 

[Gammalite]

11 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Not the first time either Noodles !  For an Interdominion FINAL in NZ.

back in your day (Noodlum winning in the early 70's ) Newmarket wants 30 years (here's 50 years for him)

1971 Juniors Image (full of Caffiene at Addington in the final , burst clear 600m out and held on to win)

DISQUALIFIED 5 days later , and Phil Coulson (a WA hall of famer with 1000 wins given 7 years DQ , a massive record penalty at the time.

Here it is from early on in thread  Newmarket

 

[Gammalite]

36 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Somebody will remember, wasnt some horses disqualified from an inter dom at addington, was it lightning blues year? 

Addington 1971 as in above post. Also an Aussie was disqualified at Auckland in 2011 after winning final

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

Somebody will remember, wasnt some horses disqualified from an inter dom at addington, was it lightning blues year? 

I just remembered another one as well. Victor Supreme ( wolfenden  ) and Young Mister Charles ( NSW ) were BOTH disqualified for positives after running 2nd and 3rd in the 1995 Interdomonion Final to Victorian Golden Reign.

[Newmarket]

8 hours ago, Gammalite said:

I just remembered another one as well. Victor Supreme ( wolfenden  ) and Young Mister Charles ( NSW ) were BOTH disqualified for positives after running 2nd and 3rd in the 1995 Interdomonion Final to Victorian Golden Reign.

Ahhh, thats the one

[Basil]

21 hours ago, Noodlum said:

I didn't say they were all mistakes.

I also said the last 10 years not going back nearly 30 years!  I'm sure Ben Hur probably had a positive as well.

The Forbury incident in 2016 was a charge under rule Rule 1004(5) - which is in possession of a prohibited substance on a racecourse on raceday.  It was to be used POST race.  NO POSITIVE WAS RETURNED!

Ketoprofen is a legitimate therapeutic treatment.

The Westport TCO2 test was 0.6 mg/l over the threshold i.e. it was 36.8 with the threshold being 36.2.  

Keep trying Newmarket.  The purpose of the exercise was to show that there doesn't seem to be a helluva lot of doping going on!

Sorry Noodlum, but all your exercise shows is that there isn't a helluva lot of doping being *caught*.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

[Richie]

I remember a horse called Cinamoid Junior that I think gave a couple of positives.Cant remember the exact details

[Rangatira]

42 minutes ago, Richie said:

I remember a horse called Cinamoid Junior that I think gave a couple of positives.Cant remember the exact details

grew a leg for ken webber winning 6 including the tvnz mile at addington but he might not have been allowed to keep that one

previous owner and leading inglewood trainer kevin greer was entitled to be left scratching his head

Edited March 3, 2021 by Rangatira

[Richie]

5 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

grew a leg for ken webber winning 6 including the tvnz mile at addington but he might not have been allowed to keep that one

previous owner and leading inglewood trainer kevin greer was entitled to be left scratching his head

Wow Ranga new colours

[Rangatira]

2 minutes ago, Richie said:

Wow Ranga new colours

lease ran out on the previous ones

[Rangatira]

11 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

grew a leg for ken webber winning 6 including the tvnz mile at addington but he might not have been allowed to keep that one

previous owner and leading inglewood trainer kevin greer was entitled to be left scratching his head

might have been the wellington cup he got disqualified from

[Richie]

1 minute ago, Rangatira said:

might have been the wellington cup he got disqualified from

Yeah that might be it

[hunterthepunter]

1 hour ago, Richie said:

Yeah that might be it

rolls Hanover get put up to first place

[Newmarket]

3 hours ago, Rangatira said:

grew a leg for ken webber winning 6 including the tvnz mile at addington but he might not have been allowed to keep that one

previous owner and leading inglewood trainer kevin greer was entitled to be left scratching his head

Yeah, that was a shocking period for harness racing. 
Looking at a harness annual, there was plenty getting in on the shakes, bloody disgrace.

 

[Noodlum]

15 hours ago, Basil said:

Sorry Noodlum, but all your exercise shows is that there isn't a helluva lot of doping being *caught*.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So you, Galah and Newmarket believe the opposite contrary to the evidence i.e. there is doping occurring and at a significant level.  So why isn't there any evidence?

That can only mean one of two things - the dopers are really smart and are able to avoid detection or the RIU testing and monitoring regime is a load of crap or both.

Take the first one - "The dopers are really smart and are able to avoid detection".  Of those that have been "caught" recently have they looked that "smart"?  Certainly not up in the upper echelons of the intelligence or rather knowledge to be sophisticated chemists able to avoid "the state of the art modern testing technology."  There is ample evidence to support that when you look at what they have been charged with.  As yet there has been no positive test evidence of any doping!  OH of course it must be some super new drug that is undetectable and the authorities have never heard of before.  Yeah right.

Second - "The RIU testing and monitoring regimes is a load of crap!"  The inference is the RIU is incompetent and not as smart as the dopers.  Even for me that is a bit of stretch.  There are doubts that the $10m the RIU costs each year is being spent wisely but even so they sure as hell have a lot more resources at their fingertips than the "dopers".  Most of the latter are struggling to earn a living!  NO guaranteed salary regardless of performance for them!

Don't forget the extra estimated $10m or possibly more spent on INCA which to date has found no evidence of widespread fraud, cheating, match fixing or doping!  Haven't even the Police walked away from it?  The irony is that the RIU didn't need the Police in the first place that is they had the power and authority to achieve what has been achieved so far WITHOUT their Police mates!  

Both 1 and 2:  Assuming 1 and 2 are true regardless of any evidence then it follows that there is collusion between the "dopers" and RIU staff.  Now that would be an interesting conspiracy theory.  Mmmm should all Pete Lamb's starts be looked at to see who was favoured in them and then cross referenced with betting records? 

So what do we actually have evidence for?  Well in my opinion the evidence is heavily weighted in favour of there being NO widespread doping, fraud or in the vernacular cheating!  Otherwise you have to believe the naysayers who have zip nada nothing in terms of evidence except - "Oh that stable must be cheating because they do so well!"

[Noodlum]

On 2/03/2021 at 9:47 PM, Newmarket said:

Toss in the milkshake scandal, blue magic, yeah we dont have a problem. 
 

Somebody will remember, wasnt some horses disqualified from an inter dom at addington, was it lightning blues year? 

How far back do you want to go?  Hell why don't we don't we do some forensic analysis on Cardigan Bay's remains might explain his performances.  

If you have to go back to the Blue Magic saga then it shows that you really are struggling to prove anything. 

[the galah]

Noodlum,your yet again saying something i have not. I will say again i believe harness racing at this moment in time is as clean as it has been for some time.  

Do i believe that no one is currently trying to get an edge by the use of performance enhancers. Of course not. 

 But you seem conflate that statement to mean there is widespread use. Also if i,or others express an opinion relating to a historical period of time,you seem to think that has to mean i think nothing changes,and i think the same now.

I believe the riu currently appear to be more actively pursuing those that look to get an edge,and i believe that is a good thing. 

And i really don't think your naive enough to believe drug testing picks up the most modern of performance enhancers. The reason you say that is your argument is weakened if you admit the obvious.

Again i suggest you go read the articles,or indictments relating to the multiple New York cases. Maybe you might learn that some performance enhancers,despite the worlds leading technology,are not be picked up in testing.

 People can't be selective when it comes to this subject . You can't be anti the riu or police if they take action against someone high profile you like,then in the next breath say nothing when they take action against the likes of alford. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by the galah

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, Noodlum said:

So you, Galah and Newmarket believe the opposite contrary to the evidence i.e. there is doping occurring and at a significant level.  So why isn't there any evidence?

That can only mean one of two things - the dopers are really smart and are able to avoid detection or the RIU testing and monitoring regime is a load of crap or both.

I think Galah is saying the RIU presence , and more accurate testing has made the 'Doping' occurrences way less frequent. a good thing. (should do pre-race bloods like QLD does too)

No good worrying about 'milkshakes' from last century like Newmarket. Thats a galaxy away now as you say.

All horses racing are given performance enhancers (legal ones) in the form of feed ,IV, Drench etc additives, supplements , vitamins , whatever it takes to keep your horse feeling great and therefore race great.

You'd be lucky to even qualify if relying on oats and hay to get you there. 

Sometimes overdosing of treatments is going to happen , sometimes internal staff error (Waller had an 'Ice' +ve one year from a horse , lol.....)  very, very few would risk a +ve by 'deliberate' administration of an illegal substance.

RIU has cleaned up the industry, GOOD testing has cleaned it up too. Even the AUS 'super stable' caught out in 2016 and Belinda McCarthy got the 'Year' out and $5000 fine. Just keep testing!!. catch the crooks. scare them off. 

[Gammalite]

3 hours ago, Noodlum said:

How far back do you want to go?  Hell why don't we don't we do some forensic analysis on Cardigan Bay's remains might explain his performances.  

If you have to go back to the Blue Magic saga then it shows that you really are struggling to prove anything. 

Do you remember when the 'elephant' juice turned up from USA? Very much in the thoroughbred world but not exclusively.

It's A tranquilizer used to steady circus elephants and the like, but in 'Small' doses could be used as a stimulant in horses. (1000 times stronger than its relative substance morphine)

Alas many horses were subject to some 'frightening' and 'lethal 'experiences with it. Thank the Gods that testing caught up with stuff like this !!! Here's a use example quote below..............

 

In the 1987 Perth Cup Connell’s Rocket Racer won by nine lengths, charged past the line and couldn’t be pulled up. When the horse and jockey eventually returned to the mounting yard, he was too ill to be swabbed, collapsed and died a month later after having only one more start.

It was assumed that the horse had been injected with etorphine or ‘elephant juice’ which was a popular, but illegal doping substance being used with horses at the time.

[Noodlum]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

I believe the riu currently appear to be more actively pursuing those that look to get an edge,and i believe that is a good thing. 

 

BUT THEY HAVEN'T FOUND ANYTHING!

They haven't found anything in the last 10 years!

[Noodlum]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

And i really don't think your naive enough to believe drug testing picks up the most modern of performance enhancers. The reason you say that is your argument is weakened if you admit the obvious.

There you go again just because the testers can't find anything it must follow that the cheaters are more sophisticated than the enforcers.  Bollocks!

However you must be an adherent of point 2.  That is the RIU testing regime is crap.

Modern testing picks up ANYTHING!  It looks for ANYTHING out of the norm!  They've found NOTHING because there is NOTHING to find.  

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

It was assumed that the horse had been injected with etorphine or ‘elephant juice’ which was a popular, but illegal doping substance being used with horses at the time.

It was "assumed that the horse had been injected with etorphine" - what did the autopsy say?  With today's testing technology it would have been picked up straight away as an irregularity.  

You guys are living in the past.  You need to catch up with modern technology.  There is an upside and downside to that technology and as I've been saying on the Thoroughbred forum the industry protocols and penalties are not aligned.

When tests are run (this is an assumption based on what they do in Hong Kong) they know what the normal legitimate chemical profile of either horse urine or blood is.  The test will throw out any exceptions.  They then have the ability to drill down and determine what is causing the spike on the chart.  Something like this:

[Gammalite]

3 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

BUT THEY HAVEN'T FOUND ANYTHING!

They haven't found anything in the last 10 years!

A Truely Great Result !!  if that is true. There Must be just good horsepeople and clean horses 99% of time .

think about it, and you see the RIU doesn't 'WANT ' to catch people . It helps deter them.

Just like the Booze Bus, they don't want to catch people 'over the limit' if possible. But will if they have to. Without them there would be drunks driving everywhere. BUT With them about, People 'try' and do the right thing , and stay under the allowed limits.

As Trainers do with their beloved racehorses and their treatments. (didn't RIU catch out McGrath?)

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

1 minute ago, Noodlum said:

Modern testing picks up ANYTHING!  It looks for ANYTHING out of the norm!  They've found NOTHING because there is NOTHING to find.  

Excellent !!  I always said it's all good and what is everyone going on about.?????

Accusing ALLSTARS all the time by so many is just Unwarranted.  Mainly because for years and years they have Won races in Australia too (different testing of swabs/ bloods than NZ) and would NOT of got away with any illegal administrations in the horses. As you say NOTHING to find. 

[Gammalite]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

It was "assumed that the horse had been injected with etorphine" - what did the autopsy say?  With today's testing technology it would have been picked up straight away as an irregularity.  

You guys are living in the past.  You need to catch up with modern technology.  There is an upside and downside to that technology and as I've been saying on the Thoroughbred forum the industry protocols and penalties are not aligned.

There wasn't accurate testing for that substance at the time , that the horse (and many others ) perished from or partly because of (obviously effected the hearts)  to confirm cause of death. 

Obviously, once the testing arrived at the swab lab's , the substance was made illegal , and it disappeared from use.

 

[the galah]

21 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

There you go again just because the testers can't find anything it must follow that the cheaters are more sophisticated than the enforcers.  Bollocks!

However you must be an adherent of point 2.  That is the RIU testing regime is crap.

Modern testing picks up ANYTHING!  It looks for ANYTHING out of the norm!  They've found NOTHING because there is NOTHING to find.  

So thats a No to doing any reading as relates to the over 2 dozen vets,trainers and performance enhancer distributors who have been charged in New york.

Some of those charged claiming in recordings "they don't have a test for it,theres no test for it in america". From your comments do you not believe that, or is nz  testing more sophisticated than anywhere in America.

One of those caught ,a jason servis is trained the 2020 kentucky derby winner (disqualified for blocking), and the saudi cup winner. Its alleged every one of his 1082 starters since 2018 raced on performance enhancers.