Looking at the long term future

[Karrots]

What is the deal with T Vince leaving?

It is in the Harness Express. I have not seen the article. So maybe out of turn. Why did he leave? Was he being ignored … Did he feel he was not listened too …? I have no idea.

Checking his stats, he was in the game for approx a decade. From what I can see brought value in. Supporting the Jnrs & Amatuers & also drivers that had just come out of North Jnrs that without his support would have next to no drives.

Why has there not been an article in HRNZ of him or a video of his farewell & the positives of what he brought through-out his career?

Does it matter if you don’t see eye to on on some things. Or even if he left in maybe a huff.

Eg Gamms, & I don’t see eye to eye on the team/stable driving thing, do you think long term this will effect our relationship - No.

Maybe people need to start thinking of long term effects of things if they want to save the game we all love.

Looking at the Juniors in the North this is not a promising outlook. Im starting to get a projection of the future 10-20 years from now re Harness esp in the North. And I consider myself an optimistic person.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Karrots

[Karrots]

32 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Eg Gamms, & I don’t see eye to eye on the team/stable driving thing, do you think long term this will effect our relationship - No.

Or Gamms were you secretly upset because we crushed your ladies in the NETBALL 🏀

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Karrots

[Gammalite]

12 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Or Gamms were you secretly upset because we crushed your ladies in the NETBALL 🏀

 

Of course !!  It is International Women's Day today so I put it down to that . The Diamonds renamed Zirconia !!! lol.

AND the Aussie boys PLAYED LIKE GIRLS and lost the 20/20 Cricket Final at Wellington yesterday !!!lol ... lemons !!

AND Majestic Man beat up the Aussie trotters again !!!  lol. Although our best Pink GALAHs is a girl.

AND Mach Shard won the G1 at Menagle beating up on the locals for NZ. The lovely Katrina Purdon is an owner though, so doing her bit for the girls getting the Big races too. 

p.s (well done NZ in those 4 events, too good!  ) 

[Rangatira]

tim vince is a very very clever man

maybe the fun went out of it

[Karrots]

12 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Of course !!  It is International Women's Day today so I put it down to that . The Diamonds renamed Zirconia !!! lol.

AND the Aussie boys PLAYED LIKE GIRLS and lost the 20/20 Cricket Final at Wellington yesterday !!!lol ... lemons !!

AND Majestic Man beat up the Aussie trotters again !!!  lol. Although our best Pink GALAHs is a girl.

AND Mach Shard won the G1 at Menagle beating up on the locals for NZ. The lovely Katrina Purdon is an owner though, so doing her bit for the girls getting the Big races too. 

p.s (well done NZ in those 4 events, too good!  ) 

Oh you are a good sport.

Thought that might get a bite.

Yes it is International Womans day.

Heard a (rumour) K Purdon, thinks someone else married into the family, has brought the name into dispute.

All rumours tho. He said she said.

Possibly bit like the airing of today Markle/Harry thing. 2 sides to every story.

With our new netball coach not liking your Aus team chances of getting the crown back hehehe.

 

[Karrots]

4 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

tim vince is a very very clever man

maybe the fun went out of it

Thanks Ranga. I heard that too. I really want to see the article. 

Think I heard he is quite a successful man, like property developer or something. So has some smarts about him. Why they couldn't see this.

He was nice to me at Alex Park bar Lyell Creek room, said hi etc when standing next to waiting to be served. I think as I was with a group of newbies and he recognised this, wanting newbies to feel welcome. Didn't realise who it was til later someone said. As I said, I think it is a loss to industry.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Karrots

[Karrots]

23 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Why they couldn't see this

OMG Ranga, I just did the "they thing", the "they" that Guerrin was talking about.

To clarify, because I have not seen the Harnessed-X-press article, I am not sure why he left.

I do recall reading somewhere that he said he emailed HRNZ to express concerns about a topic & he was ignored as per usual.

That to me is what I am talking about. You do not ignore a trainer.

I mean, maybe if he is emailing like 700 times in like 4 months like I am here with BOAY posting, posting, posting like dis. Then maybe ignore .... But I don't think dat happening 😛

.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Karrots

[Gammalite]

17 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Heard a (rumour) K Purdon, thinks someone else married into the family, has brought the name into dispute.

All rumours tho. He said she said.

Possibly bit like the airing of today Markle/Harry thing. 2 sides to every story.

With our new netball coach not liking your Aus team chances of getting the crown back hehehe.

Haha yes the CONSTELLATION CUP now safely in NZ hands (probably because you are a STAR Karrots) lol.

The royal family should of kept Harry under wraps and away from the American girls. They lost a King once, (Edward) who Abdicated and ran off to France with an American chick. Perhaps Harry doesn't care as brother William and little nephew George are heirs to the throne anyway.

Doubt the Purdon name is in any Disrepute? unless of course you read BOAY too much ?  hahahaha.......

[Karrots]

17 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Haha yes the CONSTELLATION CUP now safely in NZ hands (probably because you are a STAR Karrots) lol.

Yes winners are grinner remember Gamms 😛😁😄 I learnt that from you. And Winners NZ netball are 😁

Slam dunk 3 to 1. 

Yeah can never read into rumours too much. Certain other high profile well respected trainers need to stop spreading rumours perhaps.

Anyways my friend nite.

 

[mikeynz]

I think that Netball coach getting a knighthood was a joke,sure they won the World Cup but in reality they only won 2 games of note,maybe if one could win a couple more world cups then maybe then,knighthoods are for people who achieve extreme heights,Shadbolts another joke.

[Karrots]

1 hour ago, Karrots said:

Yeah can never read into rumours too much. Certain other high profile well respected trainers need to stop spreading rumours perhaps.

Ok so ludwig downvotes this, then does not want to hear the truth on another thread. That is right Ludwig, it came from 1 of your favourites, 1 of the Williamsons, not this particular K Purdon thing, but DEF that is where Karrots heard the BIRD story from. 

I always think of the creditability of the poster before I chose to reply or how I reply or give like you did a down like. 

I will not name the exact Williamson, as that is not cool. But maybe for you a lesson.

Nite

Edited March 8, 2021 by Karrots

[Brodie]

Another big nail in the coffin of harness racing in the North, sith Tim giving it away.

Tim often had 4 or 5 in some races and without his participation many races would not have been run!

Seriously, racing in the north is in dire straights, and hard to see now it can be resurrected.

Do not know why Tim has chucked in his license, however he was known to have harness racing best interests at heart!

Harness in the north can not afford to lose men of his calibre and there are next to none coming thru nowadays up north!

T

 

[Taupiri Wonder]

Karrots,Tim has been a regular at Alex Park since The Early 70's,originally keeping The Tote Ladies busy.

Then from 90's,added Ownership Interests.

Then New Millenium Era,became heavily involved in Amateur Drivers Movement,twice travelling to USA to compete.

Then last decade turned his hand to training a couple of his own,and suddenly his Team Numbers Swelled to 20 horses or more.

Last Year passed Milestone of 100 Training Wins.

Tim has been an avid  supporter of both Junior Drivers & Amateur Races,plus been generous with his Sponsorship Dollars.

Within recent years,The ATC has projected Stakes Increases to $30k Minimum,so Tim became more active at Yearling Sales.

However,the ill fated Apartment Developments have torpedoed the projected stake increases.

Battling Officialdom regarding Handicapping,has been a big factor in Tim scaling back numbers in recent months,and now handing over his team to Sheryl Wigg,a very capable horsewoman.

A recent 'stab in the back' by a jealous Waikato Trainer may have been the final straw for Tim.

 

 

[Karrots]

On 3/8/2021 at 11:11 PM, Taupiri Wonder said:

Karrots,Tim has been a regular at Alex Park since The Early 70's,originally keeping The Tote Ladies busy.

Battling Officialdom regarding Handicapping,has been a big factor in Tim scaling back numbers in recent months,and now handing over his team to Sheryl Wigg,a very capable horsewoman.

A recent 'stab in the back' by a jealous Waikato Trainer may have been the final straw for Tim.

Thanks for that update T Wonder. When I googled the other day, saw an article that was once a top punter. Might of given our very own resident Brodie & the new top dog BOAY resident Jonny Longshot a run for their $. 

Yikes re stab in the back by jealous Waikato Trainer. 

Yes the handicapping system is tricky isn't it. Read American Dealer will be heading overseas to do racing in Oz with Copy That, but CT will return but A.D won't. Yes AD has USA owners, but will be Open Class here now so moving on. 

 

[Karrots]

Was wondering if there are any public stats on number of horses started season 2019/2020 which gives both North & South & overall figures?

Then the number of those started horses only during 19/20 season who were exported again from N & S & overall?

Here is link to article referred to in above post re Copy T & American D Oz if anyone interested in reading.

https://www.lincolnfarms.co.nz/stories/copy-that-will-stay-home-for-easter-but-trips-on-for-250-000-queensland-feature-in-july/

Edited March 10, 2021 by Karrots

[Karrots]

2 hours ago, Karrots said:

Was wondering if there are any public stats on number of horses started season 2019/2020 which gives both North & South & overall figures?

Then the number of those started horses only during 19/20 season who were exported again from N & S & overall?

Also numbers that retired due to not being competitive anymore, & also retired due to becoming broodmares & if retired to become broodmare was it due to not being competitive?

Starting to sway towards Gamms thoughts that running more races for less stake money, more regular & dropping distance, but with smaller fields in Nth. So more regular racing amongst like for like in North. (An example re Alex shows that even with higher stakes does not result in bigger fields). Average & below average horses need somewhere to race & be competitive for as long as possible.

Then there would be more races run, so Nth Jnrs could get a once a month race at least. There would be more drives too, because more races.

Haven’t thought of the cons, most likely be some & from a betting prospective, any thoughts for or against?

[Gammalite]

9 hours ago, Karrots said:

Also numbers that retired due to not being competitive anymore, & also retired due to becoming broodmares & if retired to become broodmare was it due to not being competitive?

Starting to sway towards Gamms thoughts that running more races for less stake money, more regular & dropping distance, but with smaller fields in Nth. So more regular racing amongst like for like in North. (An example re Alex shows that even with higher stakes does not result in bigger fields). Average & below average horses need somewhere to race & be competitive for as long as possible.

Then there would be more races run, so Nth Jnrs could get a once a month race at least. There would be more drives too, because more races.

Haven’t thought of the cons, most likely be some & from a betting prospective, any thoughts for or against?

Once again showing a very pro-active attitude there Karrots and enjoying the racing, sales and Jnr's even !! 

hundred people like you and the industry would kick on again.

Key is keeping a Base Number intact , in each area . numbers mean you have races. No good everyone selling off or racing in Aus or USA . I liked that idea onc but numbers don't support it now. Some need to stay and race at home.

As Brodie rightly points out the TRAINING COSTS of a harness horse very (too) high. nearly caught up to the thoroughbreds now. That makes it hard to want to race them. I calculated you had to win a race every three months in SE QLD just to Break Even. 

So as you were trying to say , the street person needs to be rustled up into a syndicate. This is Thwart with danger as people blow their budget, and/or lose interest, and/or can't or won't pay anymore at the drop of a hat. Better a stable Knows its owners. Syndicates are a lot of work ???? very hard to get money from anonymous people who want out , when results are scarce, etc. 

On the bright side Family groups are good (sharing the costs and the excitement of racing around) and much more likely to pay running expenses. As would local SPortsclubs. An old group of Bowlers, or Golfers would have money, fun and even enjoy naming their horse. e.g There goes the TITIRANGI FLYER ! what a good name . they'd love it.

 

[Karrots]

12 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Once again showing a very pro-active attitude there Karrots and enjoying the racing, sales and Jnr's even !! 

Thanks Gamms, Woodlands have their weanlings for sale list 68 out now, so been checking that. There is always something for us to look at isn't there bringing us entertainment/joy 😄

12 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Key is keeping a Base Number intact , in each area . numbers mean you have races. No good everyone selling off or racing in Aus or USA . 

Was thinking, the North Clubs could get 1 or 2 passed in yearling sale Lots from South & bring them up North. Go for less expensive ones to keep costs down. Highest percentage of horses fit into the R40-R60 bracket anyway.

12 hours ago, Gammalite said:

On the bright side Family groups are good (sharing the costs and the excitement of racing around) and much more likely to pay running expenses. As would local SPortsclubs. An old group of Bowlers, or Golfers would have money, fun and even enjoy naming their horse. e.g There goes the TITIRANGI FLYER ! what a good name . they'd love it.

Great idea re family groups, sports club groups 👍 Remember Forbs suggesting a BOAY horsey, golly could you imagine the rage if the horsey didn't win lol 😂

[hunterthepunter]

6 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Thanks Gamms, Woodlands have their weanlings for sale list 68 out now, so been checking that. There is always something for us to look at isn't there bringing us entertainment/joy 😄

Was thinking, the North Clubs could get 1 or 2 passed in yearling sale Lots from South & bring them up North. Go for less expensive ones to keep costs down. Highest percentage of horses fit into the R40-R60 bracket anyway.

Great idea re family groups, sports club groups 👍 Remember Forbs suggesting a BOAY horsey, golly could you imagine the rage if the horsey didn't win lol 😂

who would train the BOAY horsey karrots? rangatira urd is not to bad

[Karrots]

25 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

who would train the BOAY horsey karrots? rangatira urd is not to bad

Dunno Hunts, it was Forbs idea. Let's call him & ask him. He has gone MIA tho, so not sure he will answer the call.

Earth calling Forbs, come in Forbs.

[Chief Stipe]

13 hours ago, Gammalite said:

As Brodie rightly points out the TRAINING COSTS of a harness horse very (too) high. nearly caught up to the thoroughbreds now. That makes it hard to want to race them. I calculated you had to win a race every three months in SE QLD just to Break Even. 

There are not many trainers that make a significant profit out of training.  The Thoroughbred trainers rely on their 10% clip of the ticket on sales of horses to get any clover.

There is also very little scope to mitigate costs and it will get worse as energy prices rise which will impact on everything - feed, transport, vet supplies etc.

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, Karrots said:

s suggesting a BOAY horsey, golly could you imagine the rage if the horsey didn't win lol 😂

Hehe now that WOULD generate some Grand opinion !!

would our driver be able to attend parties and have a drink the night before the BOAY horse racing.? like us 

would Mark P come out of 'retirement' to train it for us? (Gammalite wants a NZ Cup lol.... )

If not, are we going for North or South Island trainer? and a junior driver?

would the owners be happy if he hands up the lead to a stablemate? lol

would a defeat to the Spitfire cause some owners to spit the dummy?

would we be able to get the amount of money bet on it that Brodie would like on without TAB shutting down? 

so many questions. such little time.

 

 

[Rangatira]

On 8/03/2021 at 7:34 PM, Karrots said:

Think I heard he is quite a successful man, like property developer or something. So has some smarts about him. Why they couldn't see this.

most likely stumbling block was that he was thinking about the industry as a whole

[Karrots]

36 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Hehe now that WOULD generate some Grand opinion !!

would our driver be able to attend parties and have a drink the night before the BOAY horse racing.? like us 

would Mark P come out of 'retirement' to train it for us? (Gammalite wants a NZ Cup lol.... )

If not, are we going for North or South Island trainer? and a junior driver?

would the owners be happy if he hands up the lead to a stablemate? lol

would a defeat to the Spitfire cause some owners to spit the dummy?

would we be able to get the amount of money bet on it that Brodie would like on without TAB shutting down? 

so many questions. such little time.

Forbs put a name suggestion forward as just BOAY.

Heres some different ones:

Grakarran  -   Grammalite, Karrots, Ranga

Chibrohun  -  Chief, Brodie, Hunter

Luddavtau   -  Ludwig, Davis, Taupiri

Or what about

WherehasForbsgone

Karrotstalkstoomuch

Brodiecantgetbeton

Edited March 11, 2021 by Karrots

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

There are not many trainers that make a significant profit out of training.  The Thoroughbred trainers rely on their 10% clip of the ticket on sales of horses to get any clover.

There is also very little scope to mitigate costs and it will get worse as energy prices rise which will impact on everything - feed, transport, vet supplies etc.

Not that many ever have. A full day in seven day a week job. It's all up to How many you train and how good staff are, and how many staff you have.

A lot of stables have/had 'volunteer' persons at weekends that would turn up keen to help with anything , and loved horses, from their Mundane week jobs. that was a blessing. And just made it more Fun.

One positive you could get is the ability to work a few at one time. One place we had 3 of us doing 20 horses. You could pop one in the gig, tie one on each side, tow 2 others ,jog 45 mins, hose or walker or quick swim and hose. and bingo 1/4 of the team done in less than 2 hours by one person. Lots of geldings in the world at that stage thankfully. Stallions a bit more of a prick.

I love the Hands on work by ALL the trotting folk everywhere. The galloping gurus stand around giving instructions and grizzling all the time. Much happier times in Harness !!!!