Graeme Rogerson twice as good

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

track fees where they train are quite high as Chief says. At Doomben and Eagle Farm the Trainer is able to go to just one of those where he is paying for a certain amount of horses each day. they are quite strict on numbers and times. (thank goodness harness trainers nearly all train at daybreak, instead of in the Dark)

But mainly the Race Stakemoney a gallops trainer can earn for owner is WAY More than the trots , so they can charge that bit more in training Fees, as the owner returns will be higher from those thoroughbred races.

Another extra cost is you need more staff for the Thoroughbreds.  They are far more highly strung than your average Standardbred especially when lit up and fit.  If you have 30 well bred horses in your stable you probably have easily over $10 million in horse flesh.  So you tend to have more stable staff with some dedicated to just a handful of horses.

Plus with Standardbred's you can slap a dozen of them on a jogger pulled by the tractor.  Doesn't quite work the same with a Thoroughbred.

[hunterthepunter]

49 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

how many have you trained ?

best one ?

what's best one your trained?

[hunterthepunter]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

 

ALL the harness trainers (3 in NZ , 3 in Aus) were all the most humble professional horseman, ALL could break in , shoe them, drive the horse truck even, drive the race, and were also kind , generous folk and who ALL could do ALL the work with their horses if required, including shoe,feed,treat, swim, vet, brush and even do their teeth. 

 

what are the 6 harness trainers names gammalite?

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Another extra cost is you need more staff for the Thoroughbreds.  They are far more highly strung than your average Standardbred especially when lit up and fit.  If you have 30 well bred horses in your stable you probably have easily over $10 million in horse flesh.  So you tend to have more stable staff with some dedicated to just a handful of horses.

Plus with Standardbred's you can slap a dozen of them on a jogger pulled by the tractor.  Doesn't quite work the same with a Thoroughbred.

100%. Staff costs are what make a lot of business struggle. 

Gallops stable would have at least twice , probably , 3 times the staff . some part time , like the morning track work rider, than at a harness stable.

At trots stable someone could do 15 horses (with 2 others) easy, per day. YEah the jogging machines and walkers were Great at some ! Didn't matter who did what, you just jog, fastwork, swim , etc as a team. All the horses are everyones family.

At the gallops stable I was allocated just 2 horses total, which seemed a joke. one named Sahara Andy, was so stupid on the float so had to walk him to racecourse each day on foot , and Munce would do 10 mins on track with it , then would wash and walk it back home again. and spose to brush and pamper for an hour hahahaha. Didn't even throw a rug on any other horse but those 2 horses. seemed like such a waste of allocation. but that's the way they do it. And I wasn't required on Racedays Lol .... so not even getting to enjoy the results of the dedication? needless to say, walked out the gate after a few months , and returned to Harness racing. Thank goodness.

[Brodie]

3 hours ago, Rangatira said:

how many have you trained ?

best one ?

Ranga, I could train a thoroughbred no probs!

what expertise do you really need Ranga?

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Ranga, I could train a thoroughbred no probs!

what expertise do you really need Ranga?

Train it to do what?

[Rangatira]

21 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Ranga, I could train a thoroughbred no probs!

what expertise do you really need Ranga?

you would need a few certificates and the odd diploma

[Rangatira]

3 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

what's best one your trained?

trained 60 people in 2006 and 2007 according to the allegation

but none of the 17 people arrested ended up facing charges under the Terrorism Suppression Act after the Solicitor-General said the evidence was insufficient.

[Rangatira]

10 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

what's best one your trained?

sir henry

[MarkyMark]

On 13/03/2021 at 10:31 PM, Brodie said:

Probably get castigated by some for saying this but anyone can train a galloper!

What do the galloping trainers actually do?

They have staff that muck out the stables, they have jockeys and track work riders who jump on and work the horses!

Yes they will tell the riders what he wants timewise, but on the face  of it, not that difficult to chuck a saddle on!

Has Graeme Rogerson ever been in the cart does anyone know??

i thought already you were a dipstick, but jesus, you really are a special person.

you keep believing that, anyone can train a galloper. they are easy. managing staff, everything involved from working the animals, to raceday, its all easy

you are a special idiot

[MarkyMark]

5 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

i thought already you were a dipstick, but jesus, you really are a special person.

you keep believing that, anyone can train a galloper. they are easy. managing staff, everything involved from working the animals, to raceday, its all easy

you are a special idiot

i was going to write for you just a small handfull of things associated with training, but then i was in the midst of writing you a novel or a bible.

I truly admire trainers, from both codes, because it is long hard hours, for often little reward. It is 7 days, all year round, for bugger all money for most.  On top of this, caring and managing the horse, teaching your horse e,g, swimming, 3/4 pace, retraint, running with others, not shying etc etc

studying your horse, what makes it tick

managing staff

managing owners

property maintenance

breaking in

shoeing

and then ofcourse further to the point, training. i have taken some to the beach, then some to track, and you pay mega bucks in track fees for an absolute shit surface most of the time. 

i could go on and on. you have to understand the pressure at times on a trainer is intense, truly intense, with livestock worth mega money, theres alot of pressure knowing our responsible for a 30k filly there, a 1ook geling there, and trying to manage those expecations of the owner, and understanding the horse you are dealing with, their idiosyncrasies, and determing a training regime that you think will bring the best out of the horse.  

Rogie wouldnt give you the time of day talking the shit you have on here.

If it is as easy as you say on here, how are you qualified to say this?

 

 

[Brodie]

8 hours ago, MarkyMark said:

i was going to write for you just a small handfull of things associated with training, but then i was in the midst of writing you a novel or a bible.

I truly admire trainers, from both codes, because it is long hard hours, for often little reward. It is 7 days, all year round, for bugger all money for most.  On top of this, caring and managing the horse, teaching your horse e,g, swimming, 3/4 pace, retraint, running with others, not shying etc etc

studying your horse, what makes it tick

managing staff

managing owners

property maintenance

breaking in

shoeing

and then ofcourse further to the point, training. i have taken some to the beach, then some to track, and you pay mega bucks in track fees for an absolute shit surface most of the time. 

i could go on and on. you have to understand the pressure at times on a trainer is intense, truly intense, with livestock worth mega money, theres alot of pressure knowing our responsible for a 30k filly there, a 1ook geling there, and trying to manage those expecations of the owner, and understanding the horse you are dealing with, their idiosyncrasies, and determing a training regime that you think will bring the best out of the horse.  

Rogie wouldnt give you the time of day talking the shit you have on here.

If it is as easy as you say on here, how are you qualified to say this?

 

 

Marky, so what you have just shown is that anyone could train a galloper.

It is more about managing staff than the actual training of a horse!

Rogerson is a manager rather than someone who actually does something with the horse!

You are correct that generally  there is not much reward in racing horses nowadays.

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, Brodie said:

Marky, so what you have just shown is that anyone could train a galloper.

It is more about managing staff than the actual training of a horse!

Rogerson is a manager rather than someone who actually does something with the horse!

You are correct that generally  there is not much reward in racing horses nowadays.

Absolutely, that is a property/business Manager that Marky is describing. 

Harness trainers are light years ahead in the HANDS ON role with training . e.g  Anthony Butt would sit behind his large team , Whenever possible ,and know them so well , his results are sensational , even while charging around interstate. 

Galloping Trainer more of a manager, (as described) and Communicator to the 'trackwork Rider'. The Real Star of the Show . Who has to INSTILL the will to run and confidence, and mental training the horse needs To WIN a race.

Sure , a horse in full training has to have this VITAL cog track rider, running sectionals the Trainer might ask for.

Galloping trainer would be also be working in cahoots with a 'scientist' feed expert to give horses 'best' feed and supplements. and reliant on "Pre-trainers' . They are VERY RELIANT on so Many others.

I find it amazing someone like Chris Waller with Hundreds of horses around the place , Doesn't even SEE some of them for weeks at a time ? Has a QLD base for example. With horses that are developing as well as racing.

No Harness trainer could operate like that. The bigger ones like Dunn and Cullen would be doing immense amount of Lead-up themselves, to work up horses going to Auckland for a campaign for example. Nearly ALL the standardbred Trainers out on the Track doing that VITAL Aspect of physical and mental training.

[Davis]

17 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Absolutely, that is a property/business Manager that Marky is describing. 

Harness trainers are light years ahead in the HANDS ON role with training . e.g  Anthony Butt would sit behind his large team , Whenever possible ,and know them so well , his results are sensational , even while charging around interstate. 

Galloping Trainer more of a manager, (as described) and Communicator to the 'trackwork Rider'. The Real Star of the Show . Who has to INSTILL the will to run and confidence, and mental training the horse needs To WIN a race.

Sure , a horse in full training has to have this VITAL cog track rider, running sectionals the Trainer might ask for.

Galloping trainer would be also be working in cahoots with a 'scientist' feed expert to give horses 'best' feed and supplements. and reliant on "Pre-trainers' . They are VERY RELIANT on so Many others.

I find it amazing someone like Chris Waller with Hundreds of horses around the place , Doesn't even SEE some of them for weeks at a time ? Has a QLD base for example. With horses that are developing as well as racing.

No Harness trainer could operate like that. The bigger ones like Dunn and Cullen would be doing immense amount of Lead-up themselves, to work up horses going to Auckland for a campaign for example. Nearly ALL the standardbred Trainers out on the Track doing that VITAL Aspect of physical and mental training.

On the money as usual mate.

Chris Waller has probably never seen many of the horses in his stables. He would be hands-on with those that show extraordinary ability, while the slower horses are handled by someone else. 

And you are right about being reliant on "many others." There must be a huge pre-training thoroughbred industry. Who pre-trains the horses and where? What does it cost?

Staying horses would need three to four months of conditioning and work to build fitness, like a long-distance runner? Who pre-trains Chris Waller's horses or Graeme Rogerson's horses before they join the stable?

Edited March 15, 2021 by Davis

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, Davis said:

And you are right about being reliant on "many others." There must be a huge pre-training thoroughbred industry. Who pre-trains the horses and where? What does it cost?

Staying horses would need three to four months of conditioning and work to build fitness, like a long-distance runner? Who pre-trains Chris Waller's horses or Graeme Rogerson's horses before they join the stable?

I've stated in various ways on the Thoroughbred forum similar opinions - largely been shouted down!  However I believe this is the weakest link in both Harness and Thoroughbreds.  Pre-trainers should be licensed and subjected to the same controls and QA measures as the rest of the industry.

A mate of mine told me a story about one of his horses being trained by one of the "top" Thoroughbred Trainers.  He went to the trials to see it have a hit out.  Had been told the horse had arrived from the pre-trainers a month before.  One of his other mates was there and asked "how long has your horse been in XYZ's stable?"  "About a month was the reply".  His mate said "Well look at all of the other XYZ horses here.  See how they are groomed, the way their manes and tails are cut? How come yours isn't the same?"  The implication being that the horse had probably been in the pre-trainers a lot longer than was said.  Different daily rates as well!  

We talk about Trainers not seeing the horses they train but having owned racehorses in the past I made sure I always regularly pitched up to the stable to see it.  In fact if I couldn't afford to do that or have a representative do it for me then I wouldn't bother owning a horse.

[Davis]

35 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I've stated in various ways on the Thoroughbred forum similar opinions - largely been shouted down!  However I believe this is the weakest link in both Harness and Thoroughbreds.  Pre-trainers should be licensed and subjected to the same controls and QA measures as the rest of the industry.

 

Some pre-trainers are license holders, for example Steven Boyd who pre-trains for the All Stars etc. There must be others too. Pre-training must be lucrative with the better ones like Boyd getting plenty of horses throughout the year?

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Davis said:

Some pre-trainers are license holders, for example Steven Boyd who pre-trains for the All Stars etc. There must be others too. Pre-training must be lucrative with the better ones like Boyd getting plenty of horses throughout the year?

But they don't HAVE to be licensed.  To me it just seems odd that a horse can spend 6-8 weeks being trained with someone else and then in 2 weeks is ready to race with a licensed trainer.

[MarkyMark]

there are many trainers that take a hands on approach. It is not just management.

So you think that anyone can do what Chris Waller has achieved, from nothing but a couple of rags ten years ago to what he has built now?

Or Jamie Richards and the success he is getting through Te Akau?

Or anyone can prime and have a horse perfectly set for the Melbourne cup and win 12 of them, legend Bart Cummings? that joker is just a manager, with no special skill set but somehow flukes it that many times.

being able to judge based on your understanding with the horse what condition it is in, how fit he is, how you would best tune him for a race.

Mr Mckee being able to have Sunline on her game in a few different countries against the best in the world, anyone can do that?

Preparing your horse by riding your own trackwork. Anyone can do that cant they, ride your horses, using your lack of skill to set a horse for a race, bring able to judge pace in training, aswell as educating a horse.

it is not your every day management job.  Yes anyone can do it if they have the money, but its not a job you can just walk into, and be good at.

the above equally applies to harness. however in my experience, and its quite an obvious consensus from those in the game that thoroughbreds are generally far more highly strung and are a harder animal to work with, mentally, and physically for e.g. the feet and being much softer to their standardbred counterpart.  

 

[Gammalite]

52 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

there are many trainers that take a hands on approach. It is not just management.

So you think that anyone can do what Chris Waller has achieved, from nothing but a couple of rags ten years ago to what he has built now?

Or Jamie Richards and the success he is getting through Te Akau?

Or anyone can prime and have a horse perfectly set for the Melbourne cup and win 12 of them, legend Bart Cummings? that joker is just a manager, with no special skill set but somehow flukes it that many times.

being able to judge based on your understanding with the horse what condition it is in, how fit he is, how you would best tune him for a race.

Mr Mckee being able to have Sunline on her game in a few different countries against the best in the world, anyone can do that?

Preparing your horse by riding your own trackwork. Anyone can do that cant they, ride your horses, using your lack of skill to set a horse for a race, bring able to judge pace in training, aswell as educating a horse.

it is not your every day management job.  Yes anyone can do it if they have the money, but its not a job you can just walk into, and be good at.

the above equally applies to harness. however in my experience, and its quite an obvious consensus from those in the game that thoroughbreds are generally far more highly strung and are a harder animal to work with, mentally, and physically for e.g. the feet and being much softer to their standardbred counterpart.  

 

Definitely Great points. And yes the McKee, Waller and Richards results are Impossible to fault.

I was/am supporting Brodie in the Respect (on a much smaller Scale stable) a Galloping Trainer MAY not have to touch the horse, as lots are support staff are doing that for him/her. Therefore a 'Joe Mug 'could have a go.

Not so in harness, a lot more Intricate detail is required. Take a look at Spitfire A !!!  lol..................

Granted though that thoroughbreds Far more likely to be 'highly strung" . Pacers/ trotters so much more pleasant to work with. Still have plenty of individual character though !!!!!

Pacers feet are often thwart with problems. The hard, grit tracks wear shoes out in less than a month and the hooves indure a lot of punishment. I don't know of a harness trainer who can't get under the horse , and work on quarter cracks , etc that the harness horses get from the hard tracks. More tricky than soft feet?

Trotters are notorious for needing SPECIAL shoeing with weights and all at times to maintain there gait at high speed, Waaay more technical than a galloping trainer has to Know about and deal with.

 

[Robalan]

Chief, I think you will find, in harness racing, pre trainers have to be licenced. Most if not all, train horses to race in their own names