Should Riccarton be put on notice regarding shifting the Guineas unless improvements are made to the track?

[Pitman]

44 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yeah well that control experiment is working with the Steeplechase course is it?

??????? Please explain

[Freda]

15 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yeah well that control experiment is working with the Steeplechase course is it?

Not sure quite what you mean wrt the steeple course....one thing will be sure, however - the pattern of previous years was for firm going down the back, and arriving in the home straight to mud.  Depth of, depending on the weather, of course.

Whether jumping survives down here is moot, however - but the signs don't look good.

[Chief Stipe]

The argument being put forward by some including Pitty and Reefton is that irrigation is the cause of the Riccarton track isseus.  Note they acknowledge there is an issue!  

A control in an experiment is where you test the opposite of your hypothesis generally by doing nothing.  So comparing irrigating with not irrigating will provide information to confirm your hypothesis or not.

When looking at the racing from Riccarton on Saturday it was evident that many parts of the turf had not been irrigated - behind the 1200m start and large sections of the Steeplechase course.  I could see large tracts of light brown grass/turf in those areas.  Obviously they hadn't been irrigated and the grass was not healthy.

Behind the 1200m start looked downright dangerous with horses and people slipping on what looked no more than sparse dead grass on top of hard slippery mud.  I took a screen shot of that but unfortunately can't find it.

 

 

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

Not sure quite what you mean wrt the steeple course....one thing will be sure, however - the pattern of previous years was for firm going down the back, and arriving in the home straight to mud.  Depth of, depending on the weather, of course.

Whether jumping survives down here is moot, however - but the signs don't look good.

Cant see it going on anywhere in nz in 5-7 years unfortunately.

[Pitman]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

The argument being put forward by some including Pitty and Reefton is that irrigation is the cause of the Riccarton track isseus.  Note they acknowledge there is an issue!  

A control in an experiment is where you test the opposite of your hypothesis generally by doing nothing.  So comparing irrigating with not irrigating will provide information to confirm your hypothesis or not.

When looking at the racing from Riccarton on Saturday it was evident that many parts of the turf had not been irrigated - behind the 1200m start and large sections of the Steeplechase course.  I could see large tracts of light brown grass/turf in those areas.  Obviously they hadn't been irrigated and the grass was not healthy.

Behind the 1200m start looked downright dangerous with horses and people slipping on what looked no more than sparse dead grass on top of hard slippery mud.  I took a screen shot of that but unfortunately can't find it.

 

 

When the rain comes that area will have plenty of growth and the grass will grow green, it's like that every year but maybe because you are looking to criticize you have just noticed. The areas you indicate are a good 30 to 40 meters from where the horses are racing, but that's typical of you.

I don't have any issue with the Riccarton track, it's their use of irrigation I have issues with, 28 winners there this season ( going by CJC analysis) 

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Pitman said:

When the rain comes that area will have plenty of growth and the grass will grow green, it's like that every year but maybe because you are looking to criticize you have just noticed. The areas you indicate are a good 30 to 40 meters from where the horses are racing, but that's typical of you.

I don't have any issue with the Riccarton track, it's their use of irrigation I have issues with, 28 winners there this season ( going by CJC analysis) 

Pitty even you have admitted the main track is stuffed yet you are stuck in a narrative of trying to support it and blaming the irrigation! 

You also miss the point I was making which was that if you DON'T irrigate look at what you get.  Surely even you are not suggesting that the main track shouldn't be irrigated AT ALL!

As for the not irrigating the Steeplechase track you wonder why irrigation is inconsistent on the main track?  What happens when it does rain?  Do you expect the water to soak straight into those parts of the track that haven't been irrigated?  Of course not - we all know it runs off and where does it run off to?

So you blame irrigation as the issue with the track (which seems a contradiction when you say there isn't an issue with the track) what is it about the irrigation that you have a problem with?  It can't be because they do irrigate otherwise we would have the track looking like the Steeplechase course and the area behind the gates at the 1200m!

[Pitman]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Pitty even you have admitted the main track is stuffed yet you are stuck in a narrative of trying to support it and blaming the irrigation! 

You also miss the point I was making which was that if you DON'T irrigate look at what you get.  Surely even you are not suggesting that the main track shouldn't be irrigated AT ALL! TOSSER MAKING STUPID STATEMENTS

As for the not irrigating the Steeplechase track you wonder why irrigation is inconsistent on the main track?  What happens when it does rain?  Do you expect the water to soak straight into those parts of the track that haven't been irrigated?  Of course not - we all know it runs off and where does it run off to? WATER ALWAYS RUNS TO THE LOWEST POINT -DOES NOT RUN UPHILL - BUT SOME PEOPLE THINK IT DOES

So you blame irrigation as the issue with the track (which seems a contradiction when you say there isn't an issue with the track) I DON"T HAVE TO MANY PROBLEMS WITH TRACK EXCEPT WHEN OVER IRRIGATED AS IT WAS SATURDAY what is it about the irrigation that you have a problem with?  It can't be because they do irrigate otherwise we would have the track looking like the Steeplechase course and the area behind the gates at the 1200m!

Of course it needs to be irrigated, even you are not that thick. It is the constant over use of irrigation that is proving a problem. IMO there was nothing wrong with the track 27th March, so they listened to the moaners and put plenty of water on the track leading in to last Saturdays meeting. the biggest moaner of all had a shocker of a day so what's the excuse now.

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, Pitman said:

It is the constant over use of irrigation that is proving a problem.

Over use?  So what is your recommendation in terms of determining how much and when?  You seem to be an expert on this.

Or inconsistent coverage?

20 minutes ago, Pitman said:

IMO there was nothing wrong with the track 27th March

There are many that would disagree with you and not on 27 March but several other rock hard tracks produced since the first week of October.  The fact is those that do have alternative opinions are being knocked down and strong armed to the point where most are remaining silent.  

Pitty if you are OK with the condition of the track (there are many that are not) the all well and good.  But when your training partner has to move to somewhere else because everyone else has moved don't start wondering why.

As for your 27 winners what is your strike rate at Riccarton?  Not that it has any relevance to this topic.  I bet those you label "moaners" have a better strike rate than you.

[Freda]

4 hours ago, Huey said:

Cant see it going on anywhere in nz in 5-7 years unfortunately.

Hope you are wrong....seems pretty strong in the C.D...but not here,   sadly.

[Chimbu]

Freda, maybe the CD is beckoning you? You'd be welcome to join the training ranks up here.

[Ludwig]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

Hope you are wrong....seems pretty strong in the C.D...but not here,   sadly.

I am curious to know if former leading jumps riders, now trainers, such as Cowan and Crozier are happy with its demise?

[Ludwig]

2 hours ago, Chimbu said:

Freda, maybe the CD is beckoning you? You'd be welcome to join the training ranks up here.

Does the CD have one decent track? I think go south to Oamaru and Timaru makes more sense.😀

[nomates]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

Hope you are wrong....seems pretty strong in the C.D...but not here,   sadly.

Can assure you Pam the CD is not travelling any better than yourselfs , lots of people sitting waiting , trying to assess the current situation and what the short term future is going to bring , far less the middle to longer term . Non holding their breath .

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, nomates said:

Can assure you Pam the CD is not travelling any better than yourselfs , lots of people sitting waiting , trying to assess the current situation and what the short term future is going to bring , far less the middle to longer term . Non holding their breath .

Doesn't the CD have the same issue as Canterbury?  The main turf track at Awapuni is substandard meanwhile good tracks e.g. Foxton sit idle from a racing perspective.  Also no clear plan for improving the situation other than money being poured into the AWT.  The fact that there is not clear plan articulated is the reason why people are sitting back and waiting.  Why invest hard earned if the way forward is not being articulated?

[Chimbu]

I'm still pretty sure that the CD jumping fraternity would welcome, Freda (or more of her jumping horses should she prefer to remain Canterbury or SI-based).

I'd certainly be interested to know how the likes of KTM see the short/med/long term future of jumping here & in Oz. When/if he packs it in then you know that part of the game is well & truly a lost cause.

 

[Pitman]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Over use?  So what is your recommendation in terms of determining how much and when?  You seem to be an expert on this.

Or inconsistent coverage?

There are many that would disagree with you and not on 27 March but several other rock hard tracks produced since the first week of October.  The fact is those that do have alternative opinions are being knocked down and strong armed to the point where most are remaining silent.  

Pitty if you are OK with the condition of the track (there are many that are not) the all well and good.  But when your training partner has to move to somewhere else because everyone else has moved don't start wondering why.

WTF Why would anyone move we are going to have the best facility in NZ - YES!!!!

As for your 27 winners what is your strike rate at Riccarton?  Not that it has any relevance to this topic.  I bet those you label "moaners" have a better strike rate than you.

Where did I say (apart from the 27th March) that I was OK with track conditions - twisting the facts yet again tosser

Apart from the 27th March we have not had a decent track since 1st day of NZ Cup Carnival  Have you not watched the racing at Riccarton

NOW TAKE NOTE OF THIS COMMENT - UNLIKE SOME MOANERS I DO NOT MAKE COMMENTS DUE TO OUR HORSES FORM WE WIN RACES ON ALL SORTS OF TRACK CONDITIONS as I am sure you have noticed

It’s 28 winners and I have no doubt one of them MOANING has a better strike rate for sure. SO WHAT!! They got the track to suit on Saturday and their strike rate was shit as it was on 27th March👑

[nomates]

34 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Apart from the 27th March we have not had a decent track since 1st day of NZ Cup Carnival  Have you not watched the racing at Riccarton

 

The fact that you can pinpoint specific dates as to when you consider it was in decent state shows how big the problem is , and one of those decent tracks was caused by broken equipment , not exactly a glowing recommendation for supposedly the South Islands Metropolitan track .

Now i'm not having a crack at you , i'm on the same page as you regarding over watering of tracks , but you can't deny this track has had issues stretching back many years and not watering close to raceday isn't going to solve these , neither is the construction of the A/W which is supposed to give the main track a break . The track is stuffed , as is Trentham , as is Awapuni , as is Te Rapa , as are many provincial tracks .

Your track along with the ones named above are suppose to reflect our racing , as in their are supposed to be our Flemington , Randwick , Eagle Farm ( not currently tho ) , Rosehill , Caufield , but alas most of ours , if not all , more resemble a distant out back track in the netherlands of country Australia , and i'm sure there would be many saying i am doing those country tracks a diservice by putting them along side some of our basket cases . You only have to look at the Awapuni track on G1 Sires Produce day , to say it was a fucking disgrace for NZ racing is putting it mildly .

Getting the watering strategy right isn't going to solve the fundimental problem with these tracks , the lack of investment in track maintenance has come home to roost . They could move all racing to the A/W's for a year or two , but the same issues would just resurface as soon as they recommissioned grass tracks .

To me the state of our tracks are just a reflection of racing as a whole , threadbare and stretched with constant patchwork maintenance . Threadbare becomes a hole eventually and once the hole has appeared the job becomes a whole lot bigger . We are not far off the first small hole appearing .

For anybody to believe that simply getting the watering right is the solve is giving the powers that be more belief that they are getting it right and adding fuel to their fire , and hence you become part of the problem .

I said this to you last week as i have to other trainers with some weight to be heard , people such as yourself carry a burden in as much as you are the top of the game , if they are not listening to such as yourself then you and others have to shout louder and longer , it comes with your position in this sport . 

So far i have heard but a wimper from the so called leaders of OUR sport . Hence why we are just treading water .

[Freda]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

Can assure you Pam the CD is not travelling any better than yourselfs , lots of people sitting waiting , trying to assess the current situation and what the short term future is going to bring , far less the middle to longer term . Non holding their breath .

Yes, you're right :  but, I was really answering the jumping comment made by Huey .

Fields for jumps and highweight races seem to hold up well in that area....unfortunately,  Chimbu, despite my love for the jumpers,  there won't be any coming from my stable again.

[nomates]

1 minute ago, Freda said:

Yes, you're right :  but, I was really answering the jumping comment made by Huey .

Fields for jumps and highweight races seem to hold up well in that area....unfortunately,  Chimbu, despite my love for the jumpers,  there won't be any coming from my stable again.

Even the jumping is only being held together by a handful of trainers , a couple go the house of cards folds . How many races were held together just by the Myers barn the last few seasons ? . Fortunately he's not doing it just for the money , but anything decent still goes to Aus .

[Huey]

9 hours ago, nomates said:

The fact that you can pinpoint specific dates as to when you consider it was in decent state shows how big the problem is , and one of those decent tracks was caused by broken equipment , not exactly a glowing recommendation for supposedly the South Islands Metropolitan track .

Now i'm not having a crack at you , i'm on the same page as you regarding over watering of tracks , but you can't deny this track has had issues stretching back many years and not watering close to raceday isn't going to solve these , neither is the construction of the A/W which is supposed to give the main track a break . The track is stuffed , as is Trentham , as is Awapuni , as is Te Rapa , as are many provincial tracks .

Your track along with the ones named above are suppose to reflect our racing , as in their are supposed to be our Flemington , Randwick , Eagle Farm ( not currently tho ) , Rosehill , Caufield , but alas most of ours , if not all , more resemble a distant out back track in the netherlands of country Australia , and i'm sure there would be many saying i am doing those country tracks a diservice by putting them along side some of our basket cases . You only have to look at the Awapuni track on G1 Sires Produce day , to say it was a fucking disgrace for NZ racing is putting it mildly .

Getting the watering strategy right isn't going to solve the fundimental problem with these tracks , the lack of investment in track maintenance has come home to roost . They could move all racing to the A/W's for a year or two , but the same issues would just resurface as soon as they recommissioned grass tracks .

To me the state of our tracks are just a reflection of racing as a whole , threadbare and stretched with constant patchwork maintenance . Threadbare becomes a hole eventually and once the hole has appeared the job becomes a whole lot bigger . We are not far off the first small hole appearing .

For anybody to believe that simply getting the watering right is the solve is giving the powers that be more belief that they are getting it right and adding fuel to their fire , and hence you become part of the problem .

I said this to you last week as i have to other trainers with some weight to be heard , people such as yourself carry a burden in as much as you are the top of the game , if they are not listening to such as yourself then you and others have to shout louder and longer , it comes with your position in this sport . 

So far i have heard but a wimper from the so called leaders of OUR sport . Hence why we are just treading water .

Thats a great post NM. However I feel the industry is more in a sinking mode than treading water. 

Much of the industry is held together by the enthusiasm of its grass roots participants and much of the incompetence at leadership levels is hidden or offset by this. I fear a lot of this enthusiasm is wearing thin and despite roadshows ,fb lives & fancy documents we will see the significant impacts of poor decision making over the next 2 years. 

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

Thats a great post NM. However I feel the industry is more in a sinking mode than treading water. 

Much of the industry is held together by the enthusiasm of its grass roots participants and much of the incompetence at leadership levels is hidden or offset by this. I fear a lot of this enthusiasm is wearing thin and despite roadshows ,fb lives & fancy documents we will see the significant impacts of poor decision making over the next 2 years. 

Yea , wouldn't disagree with the wording . The bit i simply don't get and it is something that has been mentioned before , and that is the deafening silence from the top players in this game , is it simply self interest that is keeping them quiet or just not interested in the future . I know if i had some swey i would certainly be making myself heard . Very disappointing .

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Pitman said:

Where did I say (apart from the 27th March) that I was OK with track conditions - twisting the facts yet again tosser

Apart from the 27th March we have not had a decent track since 1st day of NZ Cup Carnival  Have you not watched the racing at Riccarton

Can you leave the personal insults out of your posts?  It doesn't worry me however it only demeans your argument and serves to reinforce a widely held opinion that Riccarton has an endemic bully culture.  Such an approach isn't going to help resolve what is a serious issue for racing i.e. the state of our premier tracks.

That said you now openly admit that Riccarton hasn't produced a decent track since last November - the 1st day of the NZ Cup Carnival being 2000 Guineas day.  If I remember correctly you complained about the irrigation leading up to that day as well after a heap of criticism from up North over the track produced on the 3rd of October.  Ironically you stated the track that day was perfect when it was rock hard and the horses were racing in a cloud of dust!

So for 10 race meeting's and 1 trial day, in your words, Riccarton "hasn't produced a decent track"!  That included a 6 week break of racing over December/January!

16 hours ago, Pitman said:

NOW TAKE NOTE OF THIS COMMENT - UNLIKE SOME MOANERS I DO NOT MAKE COMMENTS DUE TO OUR HORSES FORM WE WIN RACES ON ALL SORTS OF TRACK CONDITIONS as I am sure you have noticed

It’s 28 winners and I have no doubt one of them MOANING has a better strike rate for sure. SO WHAT!! They got the track to suit on Saturday and their strike rate was shit as it was on 27th March

The number of winners you have and your strike rate is irrelevant.  In your own words "THEIR HASN'T BEEN A DECENT TRACK SINCE THE 1st DAY OF THE CUP CARNIVAL"!  So you agree with the "MOANERS"!!!!!!!!

Saying that you have had winners "on all sorts of track conditions" is an apology for the status quo not an endorsement of our tracks!

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, nomates said:

Yea , wouldn't disagree with the wording . The bit i simply don't get and it is something that has been mentioned before , and that is the deafening silence from the top players in this game , is it simply self interest that is keeping them quiet or just not interested in the future . I know if i had some swey i would certainly be making myself heard . Very disappointing .

Some are but generally it is not a unified call for action but only noise is created for specific events.  An example of that was the noise created by the major northern stables over track conditions at Riccarton leading up to the Guineas and the Cup carnival.  My purpose in creating this Topic was to get the same discussion started NOW rather than 2 or 3 weeks out from Cup week.  

There are multiple factors in stopping the top players from shouting.  Two thirds of our horse racing population is now centred on the Waikato and is further concentrated around Cambridge and Matamata.  The reality is they don't need Awapuni, Trentham or Riccarton in the short term.  Probably don't even need them long term.  Even though Te Rapa is sub-optimal they can get by and they are machinating to build a "Greenfields Turf Track" somewhere else.

Another factor is that the major players in the North are relying more and more on heavily syndicating their horses.  They struggle with the juggling of sounding positive about the industry to attract more investors and appearing negative when criticising the tracks.  The same applies to our South Island leading trainer.  The devil knows what the executive of the Trainers Association does.

For example I cannot understand why there hasn't been an outcry over NZTR spending $2m on a new computer system!!  

I also think that there is a lot of "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" going on.  "Here is the plan - we'll suck the cash out of these Clubs by selling their assets and then we will get round to funding the renovation of your Turf tracks".....  Well that isn't going to work very well as I'm sure they are starting to work out.  What's more in my opinion it is counter productive as we are set to close down some very good racing surfaces from racing - Foxton and Riverton spring to mind.

WHERE IS THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT OUR PREMIER TRACKS ARE STUFFED?  WHERE IS THE PLAN TO RENOVATE THEM? 

Some wiser people than me are calling the new AWT's "White Elephant's" I'm more inclined to call them "Black Holes".  No one has addressed where the funding is going to come from annually to maintain them and then ultimately renovate them.  Has anyone seen a full business plan?  Why the secrecy if they are going to be the saviour of NZ racing?  $48 million has been invested!  

As for secrecy - when was the last time we saw a comprehensive half yearly or annual report from NZRB/RITA/TAB-NZ or NZTR?

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Some are but generally it is not a unified call for action but only noise is created for specific events.  An example of that was the noise created by the major northern stables over track conditions at Riccarton leading up to the Guineas and the Cup carnival.  My purpose in creating this Topic was to get the same discussion started NOW rather than 2 or 3 weeks out from Cup week.  

There are multiple factors in stopping the top players from shouting.  Two thirds of our horse racing population is now centred on the Waikato and is further concentrated around Cambridge and Matamata.  The reality is they don't need Awapuni, Trentham or Riccarton in the short term.  Probably don't even need them long term.  Even though Te Rapa is sub-optimal they can get by and they are machinating to build a "Greenfields Turf Track" somewhere else.

Another factor is that the major players in the North are relying more and more on heavily syndicating their horses.  They struggle with the juggling of sounding positive about the industry to attract more investors and appearing negative when criticising the tracks.  The same applies to our South Island leading trainer.  The devil knows what the executive of the Trainers Association does.

For example I cannot understand why there hasn't been an outcry over NZTR spending $2m on a new computer system!!  

I also think that there is a lot of "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" going on.  "Here is the plan - we'll suck the cash out of these Clubs by selling their assets and then we will get round to funding the renovation of your Turf tracks".....  Well that isn't going to work very well as I'm sure they are starting to work out.  What's more in my opinion it is counter productive as we are set to close down some very good racing surfaces from racing - Foxton and Riverton spring to mind.

WHERE IS THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT OUR PREMIER TRACKS ARE STUFFED?  WHERE IS THE PLAN TO RENOVATE THEM? 

Some wiser people than me are calling the new AWT's "White Elephant's" I'm more inclined to call them "Black Holes".  No one has addressed where the funding is going to come from annually to maintain them and then ultimately renovate them.  Has anyone seen a full business plan?  Why the secrecy if they are going to be the saviour of NZ racing?  $48 million has been invested!  

As for secrecy - when was the last time we saw a comprehensive half yearly or annual report from NZRB/RITA/TAB-NZ or NZTR?

some good points. Has anyone ever seen a plan from any of these outfits, like a real one with numbers written by someone or something that knows something about the industry?

[Freda]

23 hours ago, Ludwig said:

I am curious to know if former leading jumps riders, now trainers, such as Cowan and Crozier are happy with its demise?

Can't answer for Snooky, but Danny Crozier is most definitely not ok with the way jumping looks to be heading.

I realise there is no one, simple solution, and the jumping situation really only mirrors the downward slide of the rest...but, for sure, watching Cheltenham, and then Aintree, is something special.