JCA Hearing - Allford. Substance caught injecting was formalin.

[Freda]

14 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

That's not to say that the rules are correct or just or for that matter legal.  

Anderson was discharged without conviction by the District Court for the MDMA charge.  Part of the rationale behind that decision was that it was accepted by the Judge that Anderson would be stood down as a licensed Harness person.  The JCA suspended him for 6 months starting 1 August last year.  Note that the MDMA charge arose as a "by-product" of the INCA investigation.  It was only discovered due to the wire tapping and surveillance of the Police.  NO charges relating to the purpose of INCA were EVER laid.

My understanding is that the stand down for the MDMA charge had been completed.

But it didn't stop certain individuals at the RIU from continuing to pursue Anderson.  He was put under intense pressure and lost his only source of income for 6 months.  I'm not condoning the assault that was committed.  However that charge was addressed in the Court system and Anderson pleaded guilty and was handed a sentence of 3 months community detention and 12 months intense supervision.

The only rule that I can see that applies is Rule 4 but that only provides for a ban from entering a racecourse for 2 years.  Even then an application can be made for an exemption.  (Can anyone point me to the rule that says the ban extends to not being able to work on a harness racing property?  Yes you might point to the fact that an unlicensed person supposedly can't work on a property but that law isn't applied very well is it?)

So the criminal conviction apparently automatically results in a 2 year stand down.  No discussion no consideration of the facts no nothing.  Sorry you're out for 2 years.  If he was a bus driver or a motor mechanic he'd be back at work as soon as his community detention had been completed.

Yes I can see a case for banning him from training or driving publically for the same length of time as his court sentence i.e. 12 months but no more.  But why ban him from working in a stable?  

That's where the rule is wrong and unjust.  It fails all the tests of restorative justice.  It harks back to an arcane part of the Racing Act that created the term "undesirable persons" which was a sop to the temperance movement or their ilk to put racing beyond repute.  It was a nonsense then and is still a nonsense.  Hell if it was applied by the rule of law then you wouldn't have any owners and no one attending race meetings!

 

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm just stating the facts as they exist at the moment.

It's a parallel situation to the Millane/Molloy business.  He thought the law was wrong - as it pertained to the disclosure matter - and therefore felt justified in breaking it.  The same fella has vilified others for doing just that, namely breaking the law.  Lobby to change the law, he was wont to say, don't break it.   You know the score when applying for a licence, if you feel that strongly, don't put yourself in that position.

And don't we see more of the same, when someone's wee darling wants longer hair/shorter skirts/piercings/tats  that are not acceptable under a school's constitution?  the school rules are quite clear when enrolling.   Don't bloody well go there if you are going to be an arse.

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Freda said:

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm just stating the facts as they exist at the moment.

It's a parallel situation to the Millane/Molloy business.  He thought the law was wrong - as it pertained to the disclosure matter - and therefore felt justified in breaking it.  The same fella has vilified others for doing just that, namely breaking the law.  Lobby to change the law, he was wont to say, don't break it.   You know the score when applying for a licence, if you feel that strongly, don't put yourself in that position.

And don't we see more of the same, when someone's wee darling wants longer hair/shorter skirts/piercings/tats  that are not acceptable under a school's constitution?  the school rules are quite clear when enrolling.   Don't bloody well go there if you are going to be an arse.

You are missing the point Freda.  This is a case of double jeopardy.  Anderson has been sentenced in Court but the punishment inflicted by the JCA/HRNZ is well beyond the Court one.

That isn't the same as Molloy’s case.  If he was licensed would he now be stood down for 2 years?

Freda one day you miscalculate have one too many rums and get done drink driving.  The Court fines you $600 and disqualifies you for 6 months.  Should you also be stood down from training horses as well?

I disagree the rules aren't clear, they aren't applied consistently and they shouldn't be more punishing than the criminal Court.

[Chief Stipe]

Let's face it we wouldn't even be discussing this if either the RIU wasn't hiding in hedges or someone snitched.

At the end of the day what harm did it do to anyone with Anderson driving a horse on a private track?

When asked should the Exemptions Committee have given an exemption to allow Anderson to rehabilitate and earn money to pay his JCA fines while doing some unglamorous hard graft on a training property?  They have the power to allow him to do that and even go so far as allowing him to drive at the trials or the races.  Why not give him a 12 month probationary period where he is confined to working only on a private property until his Court sentence is finished.

[Rangatira]

51 minutes ago, James said:

BRODIE

GETTING THE IMPRESSION YOU MASSIVE M.ANDERSON  FAN.

HE NOT LIVING WITH YOUR FAMILY ???

PLEASE BE NEUTRAL AND EXPLAIN YOUR POSITION.

YOU EITHER KNOW OR DONT KNOW RE WHO HE WAS WORKING FOR

#transperiency 

brodie is openly supportive of the younger ones

[Gammalite]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

This is a case of double jeopardy.  Anderson has been sentenced in Court but the punishment inflicted by the JCA/HRNZ is well beyond the Court one.

It's a sport chief, like a Professional sport that needs to Uphold it's image. (these BOAY threads clearly show the damage done by those not willing to adhere to the code of conduct.)

Footy players who transgress domestically are often forced out of their professional 'contract' ,even though the charges were nothing to do with their football. They then can play at lower level club level i spose , and that's what you say with Anderson. That he should be able to triain or work a horse at a private establishment. very noble and caring . and probably good rehabilitaton too.

BUT , the BIG problem is the preparation of a horse (even at private facilities ) is part of the PROFESSIONAL picture still. People are paying for that horses prep and punters may be punting on it if racing already. So the punishment is/ would be NIL for Anderson , and harness racing , already struggling with image, would not benefit from taking in those Convicted of domestic offences , (until there court conviction time is served) 

[Freda]

I'm not getting into a pointless argument that neither can win.

Rightly or not, the codes have always had the ability to take away one's livelihood if one transgresses against their rules.   It doesn't happen in the civil courts, unless a person's conviction results in imprisonment, or dismissal from a profession where ethics are paramount - legal, accounting, medical - where being 'struck off' can certainly stop your career in it's tracks.

Codes and their management are under the pump bigtime for their collective ineptitude.        But - IMO - this isn't contributing to the drop off in interest, nor is it anything new.  It is always the way it was.

Anyone could, if they want, challenge the system to modify itself.  If anyone can be bothered, that is.

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, James said:

BRODIE

GETTING THE IMPRESSION YOU MASSIVE M.ANDERSON  FAN.

HE NOT LIVING WITH YOUR FAMILY ???

PLEASE BE NEUTRAL AND EXPLAIN YOUR POSITION.

YOU EITHER KNOW OR DONT KNOW RE WHO HE WAS WORKING FOR

#transperiency 

James, had heard that he was working for Dawe awhile back, but didnt categorically say that,  as you would have Ranga being pedantic!

Of course Matt Anderson has done wrong and he is paying for it bigtime!

I do not condone what he is in trouble for and I wasnt around to see the domestic violence.

What I do know is that he always seemed to be an approachable fellah and certainly no crim and committed no fraud!

Harness can not afford to be losing gifted horsemen out of the industry that has very few coming thru!

Nothing more nothing less James!

[Chief Stipe]

54 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

It's a sport chief, like a Professional sport that needs to Uphold it's image.

Do you support public stoning and capital punishment as well?  So what is the relationship between the term of punishment and fostering a good 'image'?

56 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Footy players who transgress domestically are often forced out of their professional 'contract' ,even though the charges were nothing to do with their football.

Name one instance where a Rugby or League player has had their contract terminated for a period longer than their court sentence or received a punishment worse than what the court dealt to them?  (Don't use Israel Folau as an example as that is another whole can of worms for another topic and as it turned out he had enough financial security to challenge the ARU).

59 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

They then can play at lower level club level i spose , and that's what you say with Anderson. That he should be able to triain or work a horse at a private establishment. very noble and caring . and probably good rehabilitaton too.

It isn't what I'm saying with Anderson at all.  Again I reiterate it is about double jeopardy in regard to punishment.  If society deems through the legal system that a punishment should by x then surely it is incongruous that a professional body decrees just because it is a sport that their punishment should be x + y + z?

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

BUT , the BIG problem is the preparation of a horse (even at private facilities ) is part of the PROFESSIONAL picture still. People are paying for that horses prep and punters may be punting on it if racing already.

We are not talking about Alford or Kerr where the crimes committed were in the course of their employment as professional licensed horsemen.  Anderson's "crime" was committed elsewhere and is in no way related to the sport of training, driving or wagering (punting).  One would have to draw a long rein to link Anderson's crime to the sport of Harness Racing.

He was punished for the crime in the legal system now for a matter unrelated to racing he has had his livelihood taken completely away from him and is being punished twice and more severely.  

I'm not proposing that Anderson should be free to take up race driving or public training - with the 3 month community detention sentence he is unable to do that.  However I believe he should be allowed to continue to work in the industry to pay his court costs and his JCA fines and that the HRNZ/JCA sentence should not be any more severe than the one handed down by the Court.

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

So the punishment is/ would be NIL for Anderson , and harness racing , already struggling with image, would not benefit from taking in those Convicted of domestic offences , (until there court conviction time is served) 

Finally you are starting to see my point.  Anderson working on a private property has NO public image.  He is serving a 3 month community detention sentence which means he has a curfew and has to stay at an approved residential property which could even be a harness training property.  He is allowed to work anywhere during that period as long as he has the approval of Corrections.  Why can't he be back race driving once that 3 month period is finished which is what you are suggesting?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Anyone could, if they want, challenge the system to modify itself.  If anyone can be bothered, that is.

Well I hope those that are supporting Anderson indeed "take the system on".  In my opinion there are many legal precedents to call upon to present a winning case.

[JJ Flash]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Prove what?  That the sentence given to Anderson by HRNZ was disproportionate to that given to Anderson by the Court?  I realise your obsequious sycophancy has permanently blinded you but even a blind man should be able to tell that difference between 3 months community detention and 12 months intensive supervision versus being banned from going anywhere near a harness horse for 2 years!

His criminal convictions meant that under Harness Racing rules he was automatically disqualified for two years. The disqualification extends to training, assisting or being involved in any capacity in the training of any horse without an exemption. The ban would have finished in August next year.

 

Sorry to introduce facts but clearly you need help. HRNZ rules are the rules as Freda and others continually point out. Everyone knows them when they sign up. 

PS Im not blind but thanks for the usual abusive reply to my post- right on cue as usual

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

His criminal convictions meant that under Harness Racing rules he was automatically disqualified for two years. The disqualification extends to training, assisting or being involved in any capacity in the training of any horse without an exemption. The ban would have finished in August next year.

 

Sorry to introduce facts but clearly you need help. HRNZ rules are the rules as Freda and others continually point out. Everyone knows them when they sign up. 

PS Im not blind but thanks for the usual abusive reply to my post- right on cue as usual

In case you didn't notice JJ Flash BOAY is a forum where people can express opinion's.  I realise you struggle with anything outside the echo chamber you normally frequent.

FFS we don't need you to introduce the facts - we all know the facts!  In case you didn't notice my opinion/argument is that the RULE IS WRONG!  It is draconian and unjust.  It is an arcane rule that harks back to the hold Racing Act.  But I won't bore you with the history or even test your attention span.

 

[Gammalite]

38 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So what is the relationship between the term of punishment and fostering a good 'image'?

Even though Mr Anderson is 'out of the public eye' doing something on the private property, The guy was breaking the rules as handed down to him when he became licensed by HRNZ , as JJ and Freda have stated. 

Yes , would be great for him if he could be involved still, but you have to agree (as in all your threads recently from Von Beynon etc, that Image is VERY important, and Harness racing should be seen to 'Back the Courts penalties'. ?

Surely NOT having the public know that Harness racing let's convicted person's serving a term of punishment, still prepare horses in a Professional sport without sanction from it . Matt knows that. and is still sneaking around. so his actions another slap in the face to following the rules. makes you wonder about how seriously Matt takes the punishment.?  

I would hope if serious crime is committed, example a harness licensee mugs an old lady at ATM and steals handbag and gets a year (suspended) sentence, that HRNZ would ban him/her for that year as well.? Helps the IMAGE for the sport, and would HRNZ look community friendly? no stoning necessary. 

 

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Harness racing should be seen to 'Back the Courts penalties'

But they aren't.  They have a one size fits all rule.  If Anderson had done 6 months prison time he would have received the same automatic suspension.  Anderson has 3 months community detention meaning that he is managed by Corrections and has restrictions on where he can live, work and who he can associate with.  He has a curfew and will be wearing an ankle bracelet.  After 3 months the detention ends.  

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Yes , would be great for him if he could be involved still, but you have to agree (as in all your threads recently from Von Beynon etc, that Image is VERY important

Salacious repetitive muck raking journalism fed by leaks from the RIU.  If the industry is truly worried about its image then is should be managing the release of information and that requires the HRNZ leadership to be kept abreast of RIU charges BEFORE the media.  Other professional sports front foot these things.

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

I would hope if serious crime is committed, example a harness licensee mugs an old lady at ATM and steals handbag and gets a year (suspended) sentence, that HRNZ would ban him/her for that year as well.?

No - under the rules nothing would happen to them as they have been convicted.  Even if they did apply the rule then the ban would be TWO years not ONE!!!!

That is the point I'm making.  The rule is draconian and inflexible and results in unjust punishment.

I'd be more than willing to assist anyone who wishes to challenge the rule.

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Matt knows that. and is still sneaking around. so his actions another slap in the face to following the rules. makes you wonder about how seriously Matt takes the punishment.?

You are speculating as we don't know what the circumstances were.  It should also be noted that Anderson's 3 month home detention sentence ended in March this year.  He had done the hard part of his Court sentence which no doubt was part of the reason his supporters sought to get an exemption to get him reintegrated back into society.  

As for sneaking around that is a bit emotive.  Were the RIU hiding in bushes again?  Or did the 0800 RIU SNITCH line buzz?

I imagine Anderson has a considerable legal bill plus the $5,000 reparation payment and the JCA fines to pay.  Why shouldn't he be able to work behind the scenes of Harness Racing out of the public eye?

[JJ Flash]

41 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Even though Mr Anderson is 'out of the public eye' doing something on the private property, The guy was breaking the rules as handed down to him when he became licensed by HRNZ , as JJ and Freda have stated. 

Yes , would be great for him if he could be involved still, but you have to agree (as in all your threads recently from Von Beynon etc, that Image is VERY important, and Harness racing should be seen to 'Back the Courts penalties'. ?

Surely NOT having the public know that Harness racing let's convicted person's serving a term of punishment, still prepare horses in a Professional sport without sanction from it . Matt knows that. and is still sneaking around. so his actions another slap in the face to following the rules. makes you wonder about how seriously Matt takes the punishment.?  

I would hope if serious crime is committed, example a harness licensee mugs an old lady at ATM and steals handbag and gets a year (suspended) sentence, that HRNZ would ban him/her for that year as well.? Helps the IMAGE for the sport, and would HRNZ look community friendly? no stoning necessary. 

 

Waste of time arguing this case with Neville the Chief Gamma, he will drag you down to his level  and continue his Im right and everyone else is wrong. Galah has seen it regularly in the past

Only Chiefy thinks MA has been hard done by , no support elsewhere that i have seen which should be of some comfort to you.😃

Edited May 7, 2021 by JJ Flash

[JJ Flash]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why shouldn't he be able to work behind the scenes of Harness Racing out of the public eye?

Because HRNZ rules say he cant or do rules not matter to you.? Are you above them so to speak and thus other license holders should be the same. F me and you wonder why harness is in trouble

Edited May 7, 2021 by JJ Flash

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Because HRNZ rules say he cant or do rules not matter to you.?

FFS is English your second language?  I said I don't agree with the rule and it should be changed!!!!  What part of that statement don't you understand?

5 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Are you above them so to speak and thus other license holders should be the same. F me and you wonder why harness is in trouble

Idiots like you constantly bagging it doesn't help.  But that said Harness is in no more trouble than any of the codes and the biggest reason for that is that years of administrators taking the piss and the money and more recently an out of control RIU.  Your average stakeholder has just gone about their work and put up with it.  It is about time that those stakeholders stood up and fought back.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, JJ Flash said:

Only Chiefy thinks MA has been hard done by , no support elsewhere that i have seen which should be of some comfort to you.

That's not correct but then you do prefer fiction.  @JJ Flash you may think you post on behalf of the world but rest assured you don't.  

Yes I think the rules do result in people being hard done by.  David Walker in the Thoroughbred code was another example.  This issue isn't just about Matt Anderson it is about how the industry is run.  I realise that you can't see a bigger picture.

At no stage have I condoned what Anderson has done however I do have some compassion that once someone has done their time they deserve a second chance.  As Brodie has pointed out Anderson is a talented horseman and the industry can't afford to lose that type of talent.  

I also believe that punishment should be just and relevant to the crime and in my opinion the Harness rules need to be adjusted to allow justice to be fair.  A one size fits all rule does not allow them.

I don't belong to the stone them, hang them, draw and quarter them brigade.  I certainly have never been obsequious at any stage of my life and don't intend to start now just to be popular. 

[Brodie]

The reason Matt Anderson was in trouble was pure and simple being involved with drugs unfortunately.

Unless you were there you can not comment as to what actually happened with the domestic!

Obviously there was shite that went down, clearly from being under the influence of drugs, and I understand it wasnt just Matt Anderson!

Everyone will act differently under the influence whether it be drugs or alcohol!

 Matt Anderson I believe had been understand constant pressure from being under investigation from the INCA BS, as many of the charged harness participants have been!

I reiterate, I do not condone criminal activity whether it be domestic violence or otherwise.

What I would say to those that want to condemn Matt Anderson is put yourself in his shoes, living with the publicity he had endured for such a long time, it would take its toll without doubt!

I appreciate many of you will be perfect and totally law abiding, however I personally feel for the young man.

having his face published so many times in the paper for hardly being Mr Asia.

FFS, you only have to go back a few years where the media crucified young Bronson Munro, for absolutely nothing!!!

 

 

[Gammalite]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

No - under the rules nothing would happen to them as they have been convicted.  Even if they did apply the rule then the ban would be TWO years not ONE!!!!

That is the point I'm making.  The rule is draconian and inflexible and results in unjust punishment.

I'd be more than willing to assist anyone who wishes to challenge the rule.

Yes it seems the penalty given MA by HRNZ outlasts the court one. I guess the Penalty is always contentious with crime.

G Baden-Clay (the sickest bastard in Qld that makes you literally throw up) actually got murder reduced to man-slaughter, But then a HUGE Public Outcry/outrage at the 'good work' by his Lawyers, saw the murder charge reinstated. thank goodness.

Phil Coulson (1000+ race winner) got 7 years DQ in NZ winning the Interdominion in Chch, then getting positive caffeine swab with Juniors Image. ended up out on a fishing boat for years. (and forever pleaded his innocence to his dying day, horse nobbled)

Dunns stable had positive Caffeine x 3 horses (all disqualified 2017) and only got $14k fine.????  Now That Is a Sharp contrast in Penalty. ??? some things don't seem fair in the world of Penalties.

What penalty for Alford then? milkshake tubing still attempted by the odd idiot once a month somewhere. Tree dwelling stewards are quick onto it these days , with any betting tip-off signs. (Alford blamed the betting for getting caught ) RIU doing well to intercept?

[Basil]

On 5/05/2021 at 8:56 PM, Davis said:

I have zero sympathy for Anderson. What he did to a that woman is inexcusable and a disgrace. Yes, he is a better horsemen than Alford but that wouldn't be hard. Anderson has shown no remorse for beating a defenceless woman. Today, we have further evidence of his dubious character in the latest Press article  giving harness racing hating Von beynon plenty of ammunition. Both Anderson and Phil Burrows must  be banned for life.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/125035147/banned-harness-racing-figure-caught-in-breach-of-disqualification

How do you know he's shown no remorse? And I wouldn't have thought working was evidence of dubious character.

Just to clarify, I'm not attempting to defend Anderson, but what Alford did was far worse, imho. Others are perfectly entitled to their own contrary opinion.

On 5/05/2021 at 10:04 PM, the galah said:

Couple of things.

Are you inferring the death of jimmy cannon may have been a result of being injected with formaldehyde?

Should alford be treated any different to others who have given their horses that product? If not,then would you be calling for similar penalties to anyone else who it is discovered has used it.

What about vets.  I've always believed vets who administer known performance enhancers on the understanding they are not tested for are more ethically bereft than the horse trainers.

This formaldehyde. It was widely reported during the cobalt saga in australia that it was uncovered that vets from the flemington equine clinic were known to regularly inject formaldehyde into some trainers horses as a way of preventing bleeding.

Do you think there is some connection to a couple of high profile deaths in horses that veterinary clinic oversaw preparations of round that time,or just coincidence?

Why is there never any focus on the ethically bereft vets?

 

 

I have no evidence that JC's demise was a direct result of the injection, but if not it seems highly likely it was an indirect result (not a racing proposition without further injections). And yes, anybody else, including vets, caught behaving in the same way should receive the same merciless treatment. Imho.

[Rangatira]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Name one instance where a Rugby or League player has had their contract terminated for a period longer than their court sentence or received a punishment worse than what the court dealt to them?

tony williams ?

[Davis]

27 minutes ago, Basil said:

How do you know he's shown no remorse? And I wouldn't have thought working was evidence of dubious character.

Just to clarify, I'm not attempting to defend Anderson, but what Alford did was far worse, imho. Others are perfectly entitled to their own contrary opinion.

 

He has shown no remorse, he maintains his innocence. I am surprised that you find doping a horse worse than a male attacking a woman kicking her in the head and attempting to strangle her but that's just my contrary opinion. Working is fine. Under NZHC rules, Anderson is unable to work in any trotting stable for two years due to his offending. All Anderson had to do was behave for two years and he could have resumed his harness career. That is unlikely now.