Whole Stable locked up by Stewards

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Now,as i've said in my first reply,have you (or the chief) read the timeframes around treatments given to increase red cell content.And have you read what other treatments go with that and how regular the blood is monitored while red cell numbers are being increased. If you had,you would see that a 48 hour barn retention would NOT stop the administration of performance enhancers that were effective and given prior to the 48 hour period.

But WHAT "red cell enhancers" are you referring to?  EPO?  If so human or other mammal EPO?  Human EPO is easily detectable with modern methods.  I've read the Paulick Report as well and get the impression they are searching for something that isn't there. 

Of course complicating things with horses is the role of the spleen.  At high performance when entering oxygen debt the equine spleen releases a substantial amount of fresh oxygenated blood into the bloodstream.  This is a naturally evolved flight response and I believe isn't fully understood.  It is probably the source if EIPH as well.

The point is when you add up the cost vs return and the number of people that would need to cooperate (I.e. keep quiet), the skill involved in administration and to evade detection plus modern forensic tools it makes it highly unlikely that there is some magical undetectable PED out there.

Modern testing techniques would instantly find an anomaly that needed further investigation.  Also there are techniques that can find picograms per ml I.e. very very minute amounts of a substance.

At the end of the day I'm backing the simplest explanation and that is the top trainers in both codes are just so much better than anyone else.

[Brodie]

Chief, totally agree they are just so much better than everyone else at certain parts of horse training!

They feed the horses better, they give far better performance enhancers and they train the horses differently to everyone else, and those other trainers just never find out!

That is why Grant Payne and Blair Orange have gone on to be so successful training!

 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

But WHAT "red cell enhancers" are you referring to?  EPO?  If so human or other mammal EPO?  Human EPO is easily detectable with modern methods.  I've read the Paulick Report as well and get the impression they are searching for something that isn't there. 

Of course complicating things with horses is the role of the spleen.  At high performance when entering oxygen debt the equine spleen releases a substantial amount of fresh oxygenated blood into the bloodstream.  This is a naturally evolved flight response and I believe isn't fully understood.  It is probably the source if EIPH as well.

The point is when you add up the cost vs return and the number of people that would need to cooperate (I.e. keep quiet), the skill involved in administration and to evade detection plus modern forensic tools it makes it highly unlikely that there is some magical undetectable PED out there.

Modern testing techniques would instantly find an anomaly that needed further investigation.  Also there are techniques that can find picograms per ml I.e. very very minute amounts of a substance.

At the end of the day I'm backing the simplest explanation and that is the top trainers in both codes are just so much better than anyone else.

So you say modern testing techniques would instantly find if performance enhancers have been used.  

So what do you say about those being prosecuted currently in new york? What about the leading 2 trainers of winners at yonkers,or the leading trainer of winners at freehold raceway,that is prior to them being banned as a result of the indictments. Did testing pick up what they were using?

Those cases contradict what you believe,or do you think the 29 trainers ,vets and drug distributors are all innocent?

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, the galah said:

So you say modern testing techniques would instantly find if performance enhancers have been used.  

I didn't say instantly.  I said anomalies would be found easily.

10 minutes ago, the galah said:

So what do you say about those being prosecuted currently in new york? 

Are they convicted yet?  

10 minutes ago, the galah said:

What about the leading 2 trainers of winners at yonkers,or the leading trainer of winners at freehold raceway,that is prior to them being banned as a result of the indictments.

What substance were they banned for using?

10 minutes ago, the galah said:

Those cases contradict what you believe,or do you think the 29 trainers ,vets and drug distributors are all innocent?

Have they been convicted yet?  What substance are they alleged to have used?

Have any of the alleged drugs been detected in testing?  If the drugs have identified then testing should have identified their use.

Are you inferring that there is a substance being used and it is being used in OZ and NZ?

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Blair Orange have gone on to be so successful training!

With all due respect to Blair Orange some of his behaviour hasn't exactly indicated he has the skill to be a successful trainer.  I guess that's why he sticks to what he is good at - driving.

If, as you always infer without proof, the elite trainers are cheating then it would appear they are far brighter than the RIU and with far less resources.

Get over it - some trainers are miles better than others.  In NZ we probably only have one or two Thoroughbred stables that could barely hold their own in OZ yet they are miles ahead of anyone else in NZ.  You'd call them out as cheats as well using your criteria. 

[Brodie]

45 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

With all due respect to Blair Orange some of his behaviour hasn't exactly indicated he has the skill to be a successful trainer.  I guess that's why he sticks to what he is good at - driving.

If, as you always infer without proof, the elite trainers are cheating then it would appear they are far brighter than the RIU and with far less resources.

Get over it - some trainers are miles better than others.  In NZ we probably only have one or two Thoroughbred stables that could barely hold their own in OZ yet they are miles ahead of anyone else in NZ.  You'd call them out as cheats as well using your criteria. 

To be fair I would say Blair would be a reasonably intelligent man despite liking an ale or two, just like most people involved in stables!

 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I didn't say instantly.  I said anomalies would be found easily.

Are they convicted yet?  

What substance were they banned for using?

Have they been convicted yet?  What substance are they alleged to have used?

Have any of the alleged drugs been detected in testing?  If the drugs have identified then testing should have identified their use.

Are you inferring that there is a substance being used and it is being used in OZ and NZ?

while the reports so far make great reading, and give an insight into how many high profilers in both harness and thoroughbreds used illegal performance enhancers to enable their success,theres so much information to digest and so much more to come.

You should note that those involved were able to operate mainly without detection.

One of the first involved to be dealt with was a vet who was sentenced 3 months ago to 18 months jail,3.8 million in assets confiscated and 3 years supervision once he gets out. He apparently only pleaded guilty to the one charge,and you would guess from that he has co operated with authorities,which could be ominous for many of his co defendants. Amongst the main allegations originally against him were operating a decade long business which involved shipping and sourcing blood builders which increased red cell levels and supplying medications allowing horses to race which suppressed pain. 

 

[Gammalite]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

If you had,you would see that a 48 hour barn retention would NOT stop the administration of performance enhancers that were effective and given prior to the 48 hour period.

It stops a 'BIG chunk' of them Galah. You ,Chief and everyone knows ALL top level athletes get Chemical assistance of some kind.

Horses especially, Vets and Horse trainers have worked hand in hand for decades to keep horses feeling great , and racing in peak physical/ mental condition. you Won't Win BIG ones (races) without help.

Have a look at the human athletes, cyclists , swimmers , even football .(Essendon had a famous BIOCHEMIST , they call them now instead of doctors) Dank wrecked that club with illegal substances and cost 17 players a years disqualification and the club a $2mill fine. And he got off ?? Dank should of been jailed for years. (funnily he tried to sue for defamation $10 mill got dismissed thankfully) 

I digress, Chris Waller, for example , has a 'Biochemist' constantly designing the 'mix' that goes into his 100's of $millions worth of bloodstock. Feed and supplements calculated to the miniscule degree?  I've no reason to think the leading harness stables would not be similar. The biochemist a critical factor in these top horses. Results are accordingly excellent. Also a history of 4 DECADES of success with on the track driving/training as well . someone has to be the best. 

The 48 hour retention barn does a it's job for STOPPING the late 'poormans' extra's being added. hahaha nice Galah term there !!!

 

[Chief Stipe]

On 29/06/2021 at 9:05 PM, the galah said:

while the reports so far make great reading, and give an insight into how many high profilers in both harness and thoroughbreds used illegal performance enhancers to enable their success,theres so much information to digest and so much more to come.

You should note that those involved were able to operate mainly without detection.

One of the first involved to be dealt with was a vet who was sentenced 3 months ago to 18 months jail,3.8 million in assets confiscated and 3 years supervision once he gets out. He apparently only pleaded guilty to the one charge,and you would guess from that he has co operated with authorities,which could be ominous for many of his co defendants. Amongst the main allegations originally against him were operating a decade long business which involved shipping and sourcing blood builders which increased red cell levels and supplying medications allowing horses to race which suppressed pain. 

 

Galah you win the BOAY post of the year for posting the most gobbledygook.  WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?   

[Chief Stipe]

On 29/06/2021 at 9:05 PM, the galah said:

One of the first involved to be dealt with was a vet who was sentenced 3 months ago to 18 months jail,3.8 million in assets confiscated and 3 years supervision once he gets out.

When?  What year?  Who? What was the drug?  

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Galah you win the BOAY post of the year for posting the most gobbledygook.  WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?   

 

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

When?  What year?  Who? What was the drug?  

Gobbledygook to you,common sense to me.

When. Well my post says when... i said the bloke was sentenced 3 months ago,that means march 2021. Where,the  USA.. Who scott robinson. What drugs was he accused of supplying... red cell builders and pain blockers amongst other thing.Note supposed to have done it without detection for almost a decade.

You see,i know you find it hard to believe,but some people cheat.These cases are proof of the illegal means some parties go to achieve success. As i stated a few months back,at the time this hit the headlines,the owners of yonkers raceway  indicated they may not renew the lease of the track when it comes up for renewal in 4 years time because they were sick of the publicity around the use of performance enhancers being used.whether that happens ,only time will tell.Also you should note it has been noted that there products were distributed to many countries.Also note that there are about 29 defendants,and i have previously referred you to some of them.

Edited July 1, 2021 by the galah

[the galah]

11 minutes ago, the galah said:

 

Gobbledygook to you,common sense to me.

When. Well my post says when... i said the bloke was sentenced 3 months ago,that means march 2021. Where,the  USA.. Who scott robinson. What drugs was he accused of supplying... red cell builders and pain blockers amongst other thing.Note supposed to have done it without detection for almost a decade.

You see,i know you find it hard to believe,but some people cheat.These cases are proof of the illegal means some parties go to achieve success. As i stated a few months back,at the time this hit the headlines,the owners of yonkers raceway  indicated they may not renew the lease of the track when it comes up for renewal in 4 years time because they were sick of the publicity around the use of performance enhancers being used.whether that happens ,only time will tell.Also you should note it has been noted that there products were distributed to many countries.Also note that there are about 29 defendants,and i have previously referred you to some of them.

The only thing that i should clarify was he was not a vet. There have been vets charged however.The person he got his products from was a pharmacist.Vets knowingly used the products he supplied.

Edited July 1, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

36 minutes ago, the galah said:

 

Gobbledygook to you,common sense to me.

When. Well my post says when... i said the bloke was sentenced 3 months ago,that means march 2021. Where,the  USA.. Who scott robinson. What drugs was he accused of supplying... red cell builders and pain blockers amongst other thing.Note supposed to have done it without detection for almost a decade.

You see,i know you find it hard to believe,but some people cheat.These cases are proof of the illegal means some parties go to achieve success. As i stated a few months back,at the time this hit the headlines,the owners of yonkers raceway  indicated they may not renew the lease of the track when it comes up for renewal in 4 years time because they were sick of the publicity around the use of performance enhancers being used.whether that happens ,only time will tell.Also you should note it has been noted that there products were distributed to many countries.Also note that there are about 29 defendants,and i have previously referred you to some of them.

So what's this got to do with NZ Harnessing racing?

I haven't watched a Yonkers race in years.

[Davis]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:57 PM, Gammalite said:

It stops a 'BIG chunk' of them Galah. You ,Chief and everyone knows ALL top level athletes get Chemical assistance of some kind.

Horses especially, Vets and Horse trainers have worked hand in hand for decades to keep horses feeling great , and racing in peak physical/ mental condition. you Won't Win BIG ones (races) without help.

Have a look at the human athletes, cyclists , swimmers , even football .(Essendon had a famous BIOCHEMIST , they call them now instead of doctors) Dank wrecked that club with illegal substances and cost 17 players a years disqualification and the club a $2mill fine. And he got off ?? Dank should of been jailed for years. (funnily he tried to sue for defamation $10 mill got dismissed thankfully) 

I digress, Chris Waller, for example , has a 'Biochemist' constantly designing the 'mix' that goes into his 100's of $millions worth of bloodstock. Feed and supplements calculated to the miniscule degree?  I've no reason to think the leading harness stables would not be similar. The biochemist a critical factor in these top horses. Results are accordingly excellent. Also a history of 4 DECADES of success with on the track driving/training as well . someone has to be the best. 

The 48 hour retention barn does a it's job for STOPPING the late 'poormans' extra's being added. hahaha nice Galah term there !!!

 

Do you know when the masking agent arsenic "tonic" was given to horse back in the day? Did those using it give to the horses earlier than 48 hours before a race, or was it given on race day?  

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Davis said:

Do you know when the masking agent arsenic "tonic" was given to horse back in the day? Did those using it give to the horses earlier than 48 hours before a race, or was it given on race day?  

Don't know zip about masking agents. did work with vets for many years, and do know many environment solutions (treated pine rails) etc contain 'arsenic' and some injectables (such as Ferrocyl) that are given by vets for poor eating horses, are arsenic based and effect the gut circulation in difficult eaters , to keep adequate nutrition up to scratch.

With-holding period is 5 days for arsenic products. and need to keep under the 3 milligrams per litre /urine swab threshold in race-horses. 

What were they masking ? doesn't sound good.

[Davis]

18 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Don't know zip about masking agents. did work with vets for many years, and do know many environment solutions (treated pine rails) etc contain 'arsenic' and some injectables (such as Ferrocyl) that are given by vets for poor eating horses, are arsenic based and effect the gut circulation in difficult eaters , to keep adequate nutrition up to scratch.

With-holding period is 5 days for arsenic products. and need to keep under the 3 milligrams per litre /urine swab threshold in race-horses. 

What were they masking ? doesn't sound good.

Thank you.

I don't know what they were masking. I do know that stables that used the arsenic "tonic" stopped winning races regularly when the tonic was banned. Perhaps the horses were not eating properly? 😆😆😆

[Gammalite]

57 minutes ago, Davis said:

Thank you.

I don't know what they were masking. I do know that stables that used the arsenic "tonic" stopped winning races regularly when the tonic was banned. Perhaps the horses were not eating properly? 😆😆😆

Absolutely mate. Horses eating properly (diet) to race, is way more important than what you think. a critical factor. not a hope they race on Oats and hay alone lol..... 

Was a tonic in 'Tim Butts' stable that you are talking about? or G Small ?or ..... one of many others??

 Lyell Creek had good tonic. My Field Marshall with the 1.46.9 Miracle Mile Win sure had a 'great' tonic lol.! burning Lazarus off by 20m lol......   well done to them. If it's legal use. throw it in . win the big ones.

All trainers give tonics, aids, drenches, supplements, additives of all kinds. (just like All human athletes competing at the top level take. !!  BTW . stewards should be following Mark Cavandish around with a sample pot at 'Le Tour" hahaha get some good samples lol...

This thread I was high-lighting kiwi horseman Jack TRAINOR/ and 'stablemate J GRIMSON dramatic increase in results, and thought it was funny the stewards were trying to find the Tonic !! lol...... good on the young lads, as long as it's a legal. ! and they're still getting results after retention barn stay as well !  

Time to brew a 'tonic for self now' ready for some racing today.

 

[Taupiri Wonder]

Gamms,following your posts here,I looked at Menangle Fields on Tues.

Jack Trainor had  x2 Runners & Jason Grimson x1.

Trainor set the ball rolling with Rocket Boy,fresh off the plane from Auckland 11 days earlier.

NZ Record was 11 starts/1 win for Mark Jones,& 1 start 9th for Jeremy Young earlier in June.

At Menangle,started $1.22 Fav &** WON by 11.3m,mile rate 1.53.3

Next Race for Jason Grimson was I Am Serengeti (ex Purdon/Rasmussen) started $2 Fav & **WON by 12.2m,mile rate 1.51.6

The only loser on the float home was Trainor's Our Madiba/ $9.50 longshot that ran 4th.

Looks like only two doses of "The Tonic " was used this day!

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Taupiri Wonder

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Taupiri Wonder said:

Next Race for Jason Grimson was I Am Serengeti (ex Purdon/Rasmussen) started $2 Fav & **WON by 12.2m,mile rate 1.51.6

That is hilarious with that old horse!!!!. It won 'pulling' on Tuesday lol... couldn't hold him back, all the race.

An old claimer. been around for years with Robbie Morris and 'Claimed' for 10k a year ago by Harry Martin , who had 4 wins from 40 starts over the past year with him.  very mild. 

THEN, 10 weeks ago GRIMSON/TRAINOR get him and now 4 wins since they got him , and going like he would beat the Miracle Mile winner SPANKEM and COLT31 up here tomorrow night in Brissy.???? hehehe 

Back to the retention barn for the 'old boy' Serengeti, I think lol..... need to see why he is put in the big runs now at his age lol.......