saginaw

[JTeaz]

5 minutes ago, Big Bang said:

It's quite simple.

The rule Ross is being charged with is failing to take all reasonable and permissible measures to finish in the highest possible position. 

Whether it was an error in judgement or an issue with the horse. It looked bad, especially with so much room to come out at the top of the straight. 

Jason is right. The punishment will look significant considering that Ross drives very little. 

He's done an excellent job with that horse. He was a rogue, but the recent performances have been excellent. 

Will be interested to see how he goes tomorrow.

Couldnt have explained it better.

Yes there are aggravating factors but fact remains he is guilty of breaching the rule he has been charged with. If he had hooked him.out and gone nowhere it wouldnt have been an issue. The fact he hooked him into a pocket and looked desperately unlucky is an integrity issue and ANY stipe will tell you the only people they are there to serve is the PUNTER.

Nothing agaianst Ross.Hes a good honest battler but he will get a long stint away from driving for this one.

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, JTeaz said:

The fact he hooked him into a pocket and looked desperately unlucky is an integrity issue and ANY stipe will tell you the only people they are there to serve is the PUNTER.

That is utter Bullshit.  If ANY stipe says that they only serve the punter then they should be sacked.

They are there to ensure the integrity of the sport and the safety and welfare of participants including both horse and driver.

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, JTeaz said:

If he had hooked him.out and gone nowhere it wouldnt have been an issue.

In you opinion when should he have "hooked" him?

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, Big Bang said:

Whether it was an error in judgement or an issue with the horse. It looked bad, especially with so much room to come out at the top of the straight. 

How many actually noticed it until after he was charged and read about it in the Stipes report?

 

[Brodie]

50 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

That is utter Bullshit.  If ANY stipe says that they only serve the punter then they should be sacked.

They are there to ensure the integrity of the sport and the safety and welfare of participants including both horse and driver.

I wish they did serve the punters!

Quite the opposite I would’ve thought, going by many decisions in recent years.

 

[Yankiwi]

12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

When was the last time YOU sat in a sulky @the galah as opposed to spending a lazy Saturday morning reviewing the Stipes reports and then the race replays?

I've never sat in a sulky. I didn't watch the race. I don't intend on watching the replay.

I didn't realize that you had to be a Harness driver to have an interest in the code or this forum.

I know the feeling @the galah. I've been on that end of the stick before with him & it started to remind me of another forum I used contribute to about racing.

 

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

I didn't realize that you had to be a Harness driver to have an interest in the code or this forum.

You don't - so your realisation is wrong.  You just need an opinion.  This channel isn't like other channels in that it accepts ALL opinions - even those that are disagreed with or derogatory to the owner.

14 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

I know the feeling @the galah. I've been on that end of the stick before with him & it started to remind me of another forum I used contribute to about racing.

How can it remind you?  You haven't been banned, your account hasn't been accessed and used for nefarious purposes and you haven't been on the receiving end of vile personal abuse from the owner.

However one thing I do have in common with the perpetrator of your past ills is defending strongly those that have real skin in the game. 

It is easy for the aggrieved punter to come on here bay for blood e.g. sack him for 2 months, no make that 3 months, no it was much worse than that give him half the year of!!  Many of those "Punters" that do that have no idea about horsemanship nor any idea of the vagaries of driving a 500kg animal at 50km/h with two bits of leather sitting over two bike wheels.  I assure you very few horses are point and click!

 

[Chief Stipe]

34 minutes ago, Brodie said:

I wish they did serve the punters!

Quite the opposite I would’ve thought, going by many decisions in recent years.

That's a very good point @Brodie.  What did the Lamb the starter cost punters, drivers, trainers and owners over recent years?  I don't recall him being stood down for 6 months for repeated infringements of not giving a horse every opportunity.

[Karrotsisback]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

In you opinion when should he have "hooked" him?

Oh Chief

Get the vibe you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Think the decision will be made today. And nope not going to reply to you on this thread should you tag me.

BUT will do this to put a smile on your face.

Happy Fathers Day to you 😃

And to ALL the other BOAY Dads today.

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Karrotsisback

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, Karrotsisback said:

Get the vibe you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Think the decision will be made today. And nope not going to reply to you on this thread should you tag me.

No I'm NOT arguing for the sake of arguing.  I strongly disagree with those that say Cameron should get anywhere between 3 and 6 months for not "hooking out at the 200m" when he had a second to do so.  He may have made an error of judgement but that is just a grandstand opinion.  I'm convinced there are mitigating circumstances.  @Unhinged has hinted that there are.

Don't be surprised if Cameron does get a lengthy holiday that the horse is sacked.  The punters will be happy with that.  Even though Saginaw was 8/8 in the betting in an 8 hose field.  Hardly carrying the weight of the tote was it?

Speaking of drives and Saginaw.  Go back and have a look at the S O'Reilly (J) drive on Saginaw on 6 August.  She gave the horse every chance but I'm not as a Trainer or Owner I would have been happy with it.  

The Stipes report:

SAGINAW - driver S O'Reilly was spoken to regarding the manner in which she shifted ground approaching the 500 metres despite not being in possession of a clear advantage. Paced roughly near the 150 metres.

She got a warning but in my opinion the drive warranted more than that.  But as @JTeaz says "as ANY Stipe will tell you the only people they are there to serve is the PUNTER" so pushing out in that fashion is fine if you get away with it and the punter collects.

[Karrotsisback]

14 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

No I'm NOT arguing for the sake of arguing.  I strongly disagree with those that say Cameron should get anywhere between 3 and 6 months for not "hooking out at the 200m" when he had a second to do so.  He may have made an error of judgement but that is just a grandstand opinion.  I'm convinced there are mitigating circumstances.  @Unhinged has hinted that there are.

Don't be surprised if Cameron does get a lengthy holiday that the horse is sacked.  The punters will be happy with that.  Even though Saginaw was 8/8 in the betting in an 8 hose field.  Hardly carrying the weight of the tote was it?

Speaking of drives and Saginaw.  Go back and have a look at the S O'Reilly (J) drive on Saginaw on 6 August.  She gave the horse every chance but I'm not as a Trainer or Owner I would have been happy with it.  

The Stipes report:

SAGINAW - driver S O'Reilly was spoken to regarding the manner in which she shifted ground approaching the 500 metres despite not being in possession of a clear advantage. Paced roughly near the 150 metres.

She got a warning but in my opinion the drive warranted more than that.  But as @JTeaz says "as ANY Stipe will tell you the only people they are there to serve is the PUNTER" so pushing out in that fashion is fine if you get away with it and the punter collects.

Ok, only going to reply as think what you just said is reasonable.

Shall await the trial & verdict with interest.

(PS think those that commented on the length were doing so in a comparison to what others have got re drives, similar incidents - so that is perhaps their thought process in what he will likely approx get). Rightly or wrongly. 

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Karrotsisback said:

(PS think those that commented on the length were doing so in a comparison to what others have got re drives, similar incidents - so that is perhaps their thought process in what he will likely approx get). Rightly or wrongly. 

I'm of the opinion that the penalties that have been handed out haven't all been correct nor consistent in their application with regard to similar and other types of offences.

The irony is that there doesn't seem to be any positive correlation between the severity of the penalties and punter revenue. 

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

How many actually noticed it until after he was charged and read about it in the Stipes report?

 

You said you picked it,but incredibly didn't notice it. What does that say about your assessment of video replays.

Anyone watching the race would have noticed it. I said to the wife that he should get a decent holiday as i watched the replay of the final 200m, straight after the race.And i didn't even back it.

Your coming at it from a point of view of someone who obviously misses a lot. I'll take that into account from now on.

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

No I'm NOT arguing for the sake of arguing.  I strongly disagree with those that say Cameron should get anywhere between 3 and 6 months for not "hooking out at the 200m" when he had a second to do so.  He may have made an error of judgement but that is just a grandstand opinion.  I'm convinced there are mitigating circumstances.  @Unhinged has hinted that there are.

"A second to do so" Again showing your ignorance. Split second decisions are made when your amongst the field with traffic in your way dictating where and when you go. Cameron was sitting in the perfect position to make his move. He had ample time to work out what he was going to do,and when those behind were going to make their moves.Do you really think drivers just sit there ,their minds blank,then when it comes to the final 250 they suddenly switch their brains back on and make split second decisions. It does explain some of your posts though.

Edited September 4, 2021 by the galah

[Big Bang]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

How many actually noticed it until after he was charged and read about it in the Stipes report?

 

Noticed it straight away - as I'd mentioned at the end of the back straight that it would be hard to beat with the run it had enjoyed. 

I had a message before they've even crossed the line saying Ross was in trouble and three others before they'd got back to the stables. 

You go Jason for bringing up one of the most salient points of all. Integrity. It looked bad. A clear error in judgement. How long he gets or doesn't get is irrelevant. 

When he says they are there to look after the punter, in many senses, he's 100% correct. Punters who backed that horse on Friday night, didn't get a fair run for their money. And that goes back to the reasonable and permissible ruling. 

I want to be clear too. Ross is a top bloke who does a good job with his horses, but likely before him and many who will come in the future. He made a mistake. And he will suffer the consequences for it IMO.

[Gammalite]

Every race there are drivers that make SPLIT SECOND decisions that may gain you the victory or MORE THAN LIKELY cost you victory .

Because there is heaps of rivals doing Exactly the same thing. 

Ross is extremely inexperienced with 220 race drives , you have to learn and gather number of drives to earn not just 'reputation' with your peers but ability to make those strategic SPLIT SECOND decisions. 5 drives per meeting I was told is best to achieve this.  He Literally pulled the wrong reign (rein) and looked a bit contentious because of it.

BUT didn't effect the chances of any other runner ? nor endanger anybody (as often happens at the gallops even with the very best like Bowman and Berry that hospitilized fellow jockeys and killed the rival horses over past year.) 

I have trouble agreeing with the 'Dishing out huge Penalties ' when you just make a mistake that only costs yourself badly. Actually happens more than you think. I pointed out race 12 Addington, earlier in thread here,  full of those mistakes .

Much more serious if you 'Take someone else ' out of play. give them 3 months 

Ant's Butt cleaned up King of Swing recently in Brisbane and got a month. It's a TOUGH business > race driving.

 

 

[Karrotsisback]

We have a stand-off now, on 1 side: 

Chief, Unhinged & Robalan

On other

Big Bang, Galahs, Gamms & Teaz

Then we have:

Yankiwi, JJ & Poster M, coming in to throw flames on the fire.

Think Poster M is not over being called a s..t stirrer.

Just awaiting Brods comes back online to tell us about Arden.

What will the final verdict be …. Karrots awaits as the Fathers go stride for stride.

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Karrotsisback

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Big Bang said:

Noticed it straight away - as I'd mentioned at the end of the back straight that it would be hard to beat with the run it had enjoyed. 

Really?  The only horse that needed to be constantly tapped up to hold its place from the 600m?  

BTW as far as I know we don't have in-play betting on Harness yet.  Otherwise it might not have ended up being 8/8 in the betting in an eight horse field.

[Big Bang]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really?  The only horse that needed to be constantly tapped up to hold its place from the 600m?  

BTW as far as I know we don't have in-play betting on Harness yet.  Otherwise it might not have ended up being 8/8 in the betting in an eight horse field.

Not much point in replying to be fair. 

You've got your opinion and I've got mine. A lot of your logic seems flawed when the only issue you need to worry about here is whether Ross gave his horse every reasonable and permissible measure to achieve the highest possible placing. 

With an opportunity to move out into clear air available, he didn't take it and instead went to the line under a hard hold pushing the winner over the line. 

That fact alone makes it a bit of a waste of an argument. I'll be staggered if he doesn't get suspended for it, given the importance being placed on integrity in these times. 

We will find out tonight when the report is released.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Big Bang said:

When he says they are there to look after the punter, in many senses, he's 100% correct. Punters who backed that horse on Friday night, didn't get a fair run for their money. And that goes back to the reasonable and permissible ruling. 

Perhaps that is what is now wrong with Harness Racing - the focus is entirely on Punters rather than ALL stakeholders.

1 hour ago, Big Bang said:

want to be clear too. Ross is a top bloke who does a good job with his horses, but likely before him and many who will come in the future. He made a mistake. And he will suffer the consequences for it IMO.

He made a "mistake" in your opinion.   So it's clear by everyone that there is no intent to deceive for monetary gain.

So he made a mistake because he is not the best of drivers.  Regardless of any mitigating circumstances.

Yet some of you are baying for blood and putting him out for 6 months.

Then you wonder why Harness participation at the sharp end is declining.

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Big Bang said:

You've got your opinion and I've got mine. A lot of your logic seems flawed when the only issue you need to worry about here is whether Ross gave his horse every reasonable and permissible measure to achieve the highest possible placing. 

Not the only issue by any stretch - whether he had moved out instead of letting the horse move in would have improved his placing is a purely subjective assessment.  Nothing more.

The bigger issue for me is that based on that subjective assessment by Stipes that often get it wrong and indeed are rarely consistent Cameron could get 6 months on the sidelines.

The hypocrisy there is that when S O'Reilly clearly broke the rules on the same horse she only got a warning.  I haven't seen any comments on that.

[Karrotsisback]

17 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

whether he had moved out instead of letting the horse move in would have improved his placing is a purely subjective assessment.  Nothing more.

Chief, here you go again, with your argue to just argue,

Why did they bring in a passing lane?

Should you not use the passing lane when it is there, just stay behind the leader? Not bother about at least trying to get passed the lead horse or any other horse that maybe near or looming.

Karrots has come to the conclusion that he MOST LIKELY made that decision based on something is up with the horse, as Unhinged alluded to. Not for betting or weird purposes.

Again as Big Bang said the decision will be out tonight what stripes do. 3 - 6 months to me sounds a bit unfair if he had indeed done it for reasons due to horse being hard to drive etc. On the flip side it was a BAD LOOK. Especially to those that don’t know that this horse has or had probs.

Thats my final post on this thread.

[Unhinged]

17 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Not the only issue by any stretch - whether he had moved out instead of letting the horse move in would have improved his placing is a purely subjective assessment.  Nothing more.

The bigger issue for me is that based on that subjective assessment by Stipes that often get it wrong and indeed are rarely consistent Cameron could get 6 months on the sidelines.

The hypocrisy there is that when S O'Reilly clearly broke the rules on the same horse she only got a warning.  I haven't seen any comments on that.

Unfortunately after talking to a few senior drivers today Ross is on a hiding to nothing,  there are a few reasons why Ross steered back to the inside safety and horse welfare again Unfortunately don't get recognized. Punter perception seems to be the overriding factor in stipes decisions.  The case is not going ahead today so Ross can have a lay person there as is his rite. 

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

Unfortunately after talking to a few senior drivers today Ross is on a hiding to nothing,  there are a few reasons why Ross steered back to the inside safety and horse welfare again Unfortunately don't get recognized. Punter perception seems to be the overriding factor in stipes decisions.  The case is not going ahead today so Ross can have a lay person there as is his rite. 

I wouldn't admit that I deliberately steered to port and say that the horse tends to run away from its problems and got the opportunity to do so when I pulled the ear plugs.

But who cares at this rate between SAFE, the woke and the ravenous punters who the Stipes only care about that lost thousands on Saginaw, harness racing is fucked.

As for the Senior Drivers I imagine they are starting to get disillusioned with how things play out now.  

[Big Bang]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Perhaps that is what is now wrong with Harness Racing - the focus is entirely on Punters rather than ALL stakeholders.

He made a "mistake" in your opinion.   So it's clear by everyone that there is no intent to deceive for monetary gain.

So he made a mistake because he is not the best of drivers.  Regardless of any mitigating circumstances.

Yet some of you are baying for blood and putting him out for 6 months.

Then you wonder why Harness participation at the sharp end is declining.

I'm baying for blood? You are joking me. 

Mistakes are made every week on the track and drivers pay the consequences for it through fines and suspensions. 

3 months might seem like a long time. But it's all based on the amount of drives not a length of time. 

Don't be a toss. In no way am I baying for blood. Ross is a good bloke, I've said that. It's an unfortunate situation, sure. But he'll have to cop whatever punishment is handed down and move on from it. 

I somehow don't think when the report is filed that you'll be able to move on from it though.