Noverre 2000 Guineas.

[Mardy]

Well i must say i'm not totally surprised that Opie is on this runner from Te Akau,thought i can't help but feel for Jason Laking,who's done the race day riding on him since he's been in the south,and sounds like he works the horse as well. I get that they want the best on him,but gee Jason wouldn't of been out of place in that field,has won it before mind you. I guess nothing is guaranteed when your a jockey.In saying that i still think the horse can win the race,just be good to see Jason rewarded with a ride in the G1 on him.

[Huey]

16 minutes ago, Mardy said:

Well i must say i'm not totally surprised that Opie is on this runner from Te Akau,thought i can't help but feel for Jason Laking,who's done the race day riding on him since he's been in the south,and sounds like he works the horse as well. I get that they want the best on him,but gee Jason wouldn't of been out of place in that field,has won it before mind you. I guess nothing is guaranteed when your a jockey.In saying that i still think the horse can win the race,just be good to see Jason rewarded with a ride in the G1 on him.

That is the way TA operate and I guess the Stallion advert quote from the jock sounds better coming from OP than JL if the horse wins ?

[Chief Stipe]

Riccarton Park

R8 49th New Zealand 2000 Guineas

1600m

15:25

 

1. Mana Nui (NZL) (3) 3yoC

 

😄 4: 2-0-0

 

L10: 8x116

 

T: C K Ormsby

 

J: V Colgan (56.5kg)

 

2. Wakari (NZL) (8) 3yoG

 

😄 6: 2-4-0

 

L10: 21x2122

 

T: R Bergerson

 

J: D Johnson (56.5kg)

 

3. I Wish I Win (NZL) (1) 3yoG

 

😄 5: 1-3-1

 

L10: 12x223

 

T: J Richards

 

J: C Grylls (56.5kg)

 

4. Meritable (10) 3yoC

 

😄 4: 1-2-0

 

L10: 2142

 

T: M, A Baker & F

 

J: M Cameron (56.5kg)

 

5. Noverre (NZL) (9) 3yoC

 

😄 6: 2-2-1

 

L10: 21x9x321

 

T: J Richards

 

J: O Bosson (56.5kg)

 

6. Dark Destroyer (NZL) (2) 3yoG

 

😄 3: 1-0-2

 

L10: 313

 

T: L, A O'Sullivan & S

 

J: S Weatherley (56.5kg)

 

7. Field Of Gold (4) 3yoG

 

😄 4: 2-1-1

 

L10: 3x112

 

T: T Pike

 

J: M M Nab (56.5kg)

 

8. Mackenzie Lad (NZL) (7) 3yoG

 

😄 9: 2-3-2

 

L10: 221421x433

 

T: M & M Pitman

 

J: S Wynne (56.5kg)

 

9. Ceasar (NZL) (6) 3yoG

 

😄 3: 1-1-0

 

L10: 217

 

T: M, P Moroney & G

 

J: K Asano (56.5kg)

 

10. Fireglow (NZL) (5) 3yoG

 

😄 7: 1-1-1

 

L10: 523x1775

 

T: M & M Pitman

 

J: (56.5kg)

 

 

 

[Ludwig]

Only two entries from the south?? Are southern owners and trainers not interested in big prize money?

[Chief Stipe]

I see they are doing pre-race swabbing of North Island Trainers and Jockey's.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Ludwig said:

Only two entries from the south?? Are southern owners and trainers not interested in big prize money?

Of course we are.

Don't have the cattle.  Simple.

[Doomed]

It certainly doesn't look like one of the great 2000 Guineas. No 2yo form coming through at all. The most any of them has won is $81,000. None of them have won more than two races. I doubt it could be called a stallion making race.

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, Ludwig said:

Only two entries from the south?? Are southern owners and trainers not interested in big prize money?

The SI doesn't have 2yo racing. Otago and Southland don't have spring 3yo racing.  So not much opportunity to build to the Guineas.

The pattern of 3yo racing in the SI is pathetic: after this week they stop, and then start again at Gore on 22 January 2022. Then they all follow the same races until it peters out around Easter at Riccarton with a $30,000 1,600m at best.  After this week the highlight of the season is the Southland Guineas for $80,000. No more group races for males in the SI after this week, nothing further than 1,600m all season, nothing for sprinting 3yos, or staying 3yos, all season.

What owner is going to be stupid enough to pay good money to race a 3yo in the SI?

Who can tell me the last new 3yo race to be added to the pattern in the SI?

I don't want to sound too harsh, for all I know they might be planning to introduce a series of rich 3yo races over multiple distances on the new $15m asset that is going to revolutionise racing in the South

[Freda]

Pathetic is the word.

Little pattern or cohesion.

Remember the McLean Stakes for two year olds in October at Dunedin...competed in by some notable horses including the great Princess Mellay.  Built to the Welcome Stks at Riccarton,  the Challenge Stks I think at the Midsummer meeting in late January/Feb, and culminating in the Chsmpagne Stks at Easter.

Supported by a plethora of handicap 2 year old races throughout the year and at many tracks/clubs, not just a select few.

Add the highweight races that were held also at many meetings, all year round; plenty of opportunity for the majority of horses.

I know you should be looking forward  not back, but bloody hell that's about all there is to look at.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Freda

[nomates]

It's not only in the SI , the CD 2yo scene is all but non existent in the spring now . Wang ran they're usual scamper at the beginning of Sept and now 2 months on we finally have another today at Otaki , but only 4 runners . There have been a few more numbers at trials but really not enough to sustain regular races , plus even the northern scene is quite fragmented now , not sure why , there seems to be plenty at the trials . I would assume that a lot of these horses are just being educated to get serious later to try for a sale .

I have said and suggested that our 2yo season should be held back and start about mid November , this might not suit the Karaka people but it would definitely suit our product . Then put in place a clear set of path ways and a pattern to give owners and trainers some surety around what to do with their youngsters .

2yo racing in NZ used to be really exciting but now self interest and a lack of interest has ruined it .

What's new !

[Doomed]

6 hours ago, Freda said:

Pathetic is the word.

Little pattern or cohesion.

Remember the McLean Stakes for two year olds in October at Dunedin...competed in by some notable horses including the great Princess Mellay.  Built to the Welcome Stks at Riccarton,  the Challenge Stks I think at the Midsummer meeting in late January/Feb, and culminating in the Chsmpagne Stks at Easter.

Supported by a plethora of handicap 2 year old races throughout the year and at many tracks/clubs, not just a select few.

Add the highweight races that were held also at many meetings, all year round; plenty of opportunity for the majority of horses.

I know you should be looking forward  not back, but bloody hell that's about all there is to look at.

I remember the McLean Stakes well. Some good horses won and were placed in it. Otago also had a decent 2yo race on Boxing day. Now Otago and Southland can't even be bothered having a 2yo race on their cup days. They would rather run a maiden race. I don't really blame them. They have had the stuffing knocked out of them, no real leadership and no encouragement to try anything new, or even go back to something that has worked previously.

There used to be a 2yo fillies race at Riccarton. Riccarton even used to have the SI Champion Stakes over 2,000m for 3yos, or a name like that.

Somebody should tell the powers that be that syndicates are big these days and they quite like to see their horses race as 2yos and 3yos. If they showed some initiative they could have hundreds of excited owners sitting up in the public grandstand at Riccarton watching their youngsters race around on the AWT.

I vaguely recall some pretty stupid sounding concept of bonus races, triple crowns or something like that being announced for the SI. They would be better off putting the money into 3 or 4 new races that people understand rather than some esoteric concept that no one will understand and will gain no traction.

And don't get me started on four maiden races over the first two days of cup week. Have they given up on tiered racing?

Riccarton is bloody lucky to have retained their two Guineas races, Cup Week would be stuffed without them. There is no logical reason to have them in the SI. Although to be honest there isn't really a decent track in the NI that could hold them at this time of year.

[Doomed]

I must admit, I was just thinking back to the late 80s, early 90s when Empire Rose, Mercator and Double Take came back from running well in the Melbourne Cup to win the NZ Cup. It is probably unlikely, but I have been keeping an eye out in case Verry Elleegant or The Chosen One throw in a late entry for the Cup this year.

[nomates]

30 minutes ago, Doomed said:

I must admit, I was just thinking back to the late 80s, early 90s when Empire Rose, Mercator and Double Take came back from running well in the Melbourne Cup to win the NZ Cup. It is probably unlikely, but I have been keeping an eye out in case Verry Elleegant or The Chosen One throw in a late entry for the Cup this year.

Wouldn't work , they would have to carry 80kg's and the rest would be on 50kg's , wouldn't be enough lite weight riders .

Highest rated horse for the cup is 88 so just another mid rating race but with black type and an inflated stake , another race that needs a major down grade .

Certainly not the cup that stops a nation .

[Doomed]

38 minutes ago, nomates said:

Wouldn't work , they would have to carry 80kg's and the rest would be on 50kg's , wouldn't be enough lite weight riders .

Highest rated horse for the cup is 88 so just another mid rating race but with black type and an inflated stake , another race that needs a major down grade .

Certainly not the cup that stops a nation .

The Cup is only Group 3. I doubt very much that it will be the worst Group 3 field we see go around this season. The Waikato Cup prelude this weekend has a rating 82 top weight and only one other horse higher than 78.

I am actually in favour of the NZ Cup retaining its stake and group status. We need to give some weight to tradition. We don't have much else.

It is the whole structure and pattern that is wrong, although the CJC must take a lot of responsibility for that as they dictate a lot of the pattern in the SI. I really do despair for the SI when the AWT is fully operational. The CJC will then run most the industry days and most of the feature days in the South. None of the other clubs will then have any incentive or encouragement to try anything new, and the CJC last showed any initiative about 40 years ago in the days of Dave Lloyd.

[nomates]

9 minutes ago, Doomed said:

The Cup is only Group 3. I doubt very much that it will be the worst Group 3 field we see go around this season. The Waikato Cup prelude this weekend has a rating 82 top weight and only one other horse higher than 78.

I am actually in favour of the NZ Cup retaining its stake and group status. We need to give some weight to tradition. We don't have much else.

 

Just because it's not the worst doesn't mean it's it is a G3 quality field , just says the rest are shite , it is basically a R88 , not nearly good enough . Where do we draw the line and say , ok the quality is now too poor , we have been there for a fair few seasons now but nothing really changes , in fact they increased stakes for black type racing at the expense of the lower grade horses when in reality the supposed higher quality horses aren't really that much better .

Tradition means nothing when the quality doesn't reflect that tradition . Tradition is dead and buried in NZ racing .

14 minutes ago, Doomed said:

It is the whole structure and pattern that is wrong, although the CJC must take a lot of responsibility for that as they dictate a lot of the pattern in the SI. I really do despair for the SI when the AWT is fully operational. The CJC will then run most the industry days and most of the feature days in the South. None of the other clubs will then have any incentive or encouragement to try anything new, and the CJC last showed any initiative about 40 years ago in the days of Dave Lloyd.

This is called centralization , get used to it , the CD is next , and in time with the new ATC so is the Northern area to a large degree . 

I agree the whole pattern and structure is wrong , but that is so for the whole of NZ racing . It needs to be completely broken down and rebuilt , rebuilt to fit with what we are now and into the future . We have to accept where we stand in the world of racing , the glory days are gone , i see our best as somewhere between Aussie  G3 and provincial , accept this and rebuild from here . Will this happen , not in my lifetime , not with the lack of vision and courage that is ensconced in running NZ racing .

[Ludwig]

15 hours ago, Freda said:

Pathetic is the word.

Little pattern or cohesion.

Remember the McLean Stakes for two year olds in October at Dunedin...competed in by some notable horses including the great Princess Mellay.  Built to the Welcome Stks at Riccarton,  the Challenge Stks I think at the Midsummer meeting in late January/Feb, and culminating in the Chsmpagne Stks at Easter.

Supported by a plethora of handicap 2 year old races throughout the year and at many tracks/clubs, not just a select few.

Add the highweight races that were held also at many meetings, all year round; plenty of opportunity for the majority of horses.

I know you should be looking forward  not back, but bloody hell that's about all there is to look at.

So who has the job of planning the overall programme, or does each club do what it wants?

[Freda]

There is a Programming Committee, chaired by Tim Mills and involving a panel, not sure how that is made up, think they meet quarterly although stand to be corrected.  Pitty would give you the right oil if he could bring himself to advise.

Not an easy job at all, I wouldn't think.  It's all very well to be critical ( like me )  but there is so much to consider that is really outside the scope of such a committee.  Not sure how much input there is from Wellington. 

 

[curious]

I really don't understand the programming at all. Just perusing the new November to March programme book. The pattern racing pattern has become a shambles as noted above. Beyond maidens, it is like you have to move horses all over the country to find suitable opportunities on suitable tracks.

[Huey]

23 minutes ago, curious said:

I really don't understand the programming at all. Just perusing the new November to March programme book. The pattern racing pattern has become a shambles as noted above. Beyond maidens, it is like you have to move horses all over the country to find suitable opportunities on suitable tracks.

The ones running the sport don't understand it either, be honest the entire sport in this country is a complete and utter shambles!

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

There is a Programming Committee, chaired by Tim Mills and involving a panel, not sure how that is made up, think they meet quarterly although stand to be corrected.  Pitty would give you the right oil if he could bring himself to advise.

Not an easy job at all, I wouldn't think.  It's all very well to be critical ( like me )  but there is so much to consider that is really outside the scope of such a committee.  Not sure how much input there is from Wellington. 

 

How hard can it be? You plan a route to the bigger races on the pattern i.e. Derby, Oaks , Gunieas , Cups (Aus are superb at this it flows like melting chocolate) etc and you programme races that are likely to be in high demand. I can't understand why every single race meeting does'nt have a 1200,1400,1600 & 2000m race or equivalent in the maiden ranks at industry level , its a no brainer surely these are usually the races trainers are planning for their horses. 

How hard would it be to set up a voting system in the online trainers centre for what races trainers are looking for in a month or two months time, how hard is it to plan races around what a meeting in that region had a fortnight or month beforehand?

But probably like everything in the sport in this country its been hijacked by self interest!

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

There is a Programming Committee, chaired by Tim Mills and involving a panel, not sure how that is made up, think they meet quarterly although stand to be corrected.  Pitty would give you the right oil if he could bring himself to advise.

Not an easy job at all, I wouldn't think.  It's all very well to be critical ( like me )  but there is so much to consider that is really outside the scope of such a committee.  Not sure how much input there is from Wellington. 

 

Why make excuses for them?

They're obviously incompetent and/or lazy.  Not surprised if Mills and @Pitman are leading the charge.

It isn't rocket science by any stretch.

How many trainers are left in the South Island?  How hard is it to:

1.  Design programmes that follow the normative horse training pattern.  Has training changed that much in 50 years?

2.  Contact all the trainers every fortnight to find out what horses are fit and ready, what they want and fine tune the programme accordingly.

Yeah na.  They probably pitch up over a bottle of whiskey take out the tattered old plan the have had for decades and rearrange according to the vested interests at the table.  

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, Huey said:

But probably like everything in the sport in this country its been hijacked by self interest!

Precisely.  Mills and co have only two jobs - present a good racing surface and a race programme that aligns with the horse population.  They fail miserably on both.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

The ones running the sport don't understand it either, be honest the entire sport in this country is a complete and utter shambles!

Come on Huey get real , please , that is giving them far too much credit .

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

How hard can it be? You plan a route to the bigger races on the pattern i.e. Derby, Oaks , Gunieas , Cups (Aus are superb at this it flows like melting chocolate) etc and you programme races that are likely to be in high demand. I can't understand why every single race meeting does'nt have a 1200,1400,1600 & 2000m race or equivalent in the maiden ranks at industry level , its a no brainer surely these are usually the races trainers are planning for their horses. 

How hard would it be to set up a voting system in the online trainers centre for what races trainers are looking for in a month or two months time, how hard is it to plan races around what a meeting in that region had a fortnight or month beforehand?

But probably like everything in the sport in this country its been hijacked by self interest!

NZ isn't big enough that they need every district deciding programming .

If NZTR had a division where trainers had to update where they're horses were at and when they might be racing it would give the programmers some numbers to work with . But as i have said in the past a lot of trainers can't even do stable returns when they are supposed to , often waiting till the week they are racing .

[Huey]

27 minutes ago, nomates said:

NZ isn't big enough that they need every district deciding programming .

If NZTR had a division where trainers had to update where they're horses were at and when they might be racing it would give the programmers some numbers to work with . But as i have said in the past a lot of trainers can't even do stable returns when they are supposed to , often waiting till the week they are racing .

Despite that, surely its possible to use jumpouts /trials/trackwork  to guage what is ahead. Not the industry fault if NZTR haven't engaged enough to get a handle on this , perhaps its a job for the COO to look at , but as I've said before unless its a copy paste exercise there is no hope of it happening - largely because they haven't got a clue how it works, or simply do not care.

If trainers thought by them doing something they would get something out of it i.e. vote for races required at race meetings etc they would do it, I have no doubt about that, but that needs to be communicated to them by those running the show. Also by doing that they wouldn't be able to make it up as they go along for the benefit of a few in the industry which means it probably won't happen.

Absolute no innovation in our local industry , no new ideas too worried the establishment won't like them - thats one of the main reasons we are on the road to no where (not entirely true I guess oblivion is a destination).