NZ cup carnival in the future

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, billy connolly said:

Exactly, Show Gate was a freak but didn't do half of what Winx (or Sunline) did.

She only did just over half of what Grey Way did as well. About 30 wins against his 51.

[holy ravioli]

20 minutes ago, Doomed said:

She only did just over half of what Grey Way did as well. About 30 wins against his 51.

Grey Way...the field he beat in the Easter was unbelievable.The Washdyke Wonder-had a few battles with..Copper Belt.

[muzenza365]

14 hours ago, holy ravioli said:

Grey Way...the field he beat in the Easter was unbelievable.The Washdyke Wonder-had a few battles with..Copper Belt.

Chief,can you do some research and look for me,as you are better than i.

Can you find were Gordon Thomson was fined for the way Show Gate was presented in the birdcage,i am nearly sure it was the Jackson Stakes,where she beat Count Kerau Spelling, from memory she had the scours and it was all down her hind legs.

On Grey Way and Copper Belt battles, Grey Way a loyal strapper named George McKay and after one of there battles, which Copper Belt won, Mrs Pauline Deacon gave George a message along the lines of Bad Luck today, which  the loyal strapper could not handle, so they were in the wash bay and he turned around and sprayed Mrs Deacon with the hose and anyone who knows her, also knows she was always well groomed, but after the wash down her well permed hair wasn't looking that flash.True story

[curious]

On 10/11/2021 at 9:21 PM, Reefton said:

It was when she won the first Telegraph I think Pam as I remember from the old racing annuals

When she won the Trentham Stakes she broke the track record and had broken down 800m out.  Broke her sesamoid for the second time!  That was after being beaten a head in Wellington Cup the week before by Good Lord(dual Sydney Cup winner) when Ramage said she would have won but was so wide she didn't see Good Lord on the fence.   And all that of course a coupe of weeks after the Dunedin Gold Cup/Timaru Cup wins in two days

Utterly remarkable horse given the way she was treated.

 

And Ramage dropped his stick didn't he?

[Freda]

5 hours ago, curious said:

And Ramage dropped his stick didn't he?

Yep.

[nod]

No horse mentioned herein could do what Showgate did over the three days at Riccarton --especially fresh up

It is stupidity to try and compare horses -they are either good, moderate or mine

[mikeynz]

On 11/6/2021 at 11:57 PM, Ludwig said:

Silly question I suppose, but I was wondering if the CJC has a five or ten year plan for the Cup carnival? Things it wants to change, new growth areas, changes to programme etc?? Or is supplying enough food and grog to the suits  its top priority??

Cup week will probably stay the same, the national meeting in August well that's a different kettle of fish, no Canterbury meeting this week, no reason why a meeting cant be scheduled sunday for Washdyke, maybe, there are gaps in the calandar that Timaru could race just to keep the course in business, just a thought.

[Lynnley Driver]

With respect, I note that Gordon Thompson bought two fillies from Trentham Sales, with his own money - the subsequent winners Subtrist and Minglow. He bred, owned, and trained Middy ( NZ Cup, etc.) from one and Show Gate from the other. Not a bad record, I’d say ! 

         He bred/owned/trained many other very good gallopers. At least once he won all three races on the card with his only three entries. He bred two Black Type horses from Show Gate, one of which , Every Show, held the mile record at Riccarton until the track was altered. He imported the subsequent leading sire Gatekeeper which he stood on his own Stud, making a number of S.I. breeders very successful, including the Dennis bothers, He was an absolute gentleman who would not have criticised  even one of us, nor our horses. He put his own money up, backed his own product and, incidentally, left several of his riders a substantial handout in his will.

  Yes, we are all entitled to our views from the side, many of which have been aired here, but who can achieve the same hands on success as Gordon Thompson ?  I can’t.......can you ?

 

[billy connolly]

Yes, good post Lynnley Driver and agree with you... mostly. The only thing you missed was that old Gordon was a piss poor stockman.

Gate Keeper was an underrated sire who left horses with a turn of foot over any distance but ended up infertile. Many local (Wingatui) broodmare owners refused to leave their mares at Gordy's property for long, only taking them there to be served and straight back home !

The South Island was fortunate to have (in sequence) the prepotent sires Kurdistan, Bellborough, Mellay, Gate Keeper and Noble Bijou.

 

[Lynnley Driver]

Yes Billy, and you will know that three of those Stallions contributed to The Perfect Pink’s 2,000 GNS win on Saturday. 

[Ragamuffin]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:02 PM, Lynnley Driver said:

With respect, I note that Gordon Thompson bought two fillies from Trentham Sales, with his own money - the subsequent winners Subtrist and Minglow. He bred, owned, and trained Middy ( NZ Cup, etc.) from one and Show Gate from the other. Not a bad record, I’d say ! 

         He bred/owned/trained many other very good gallopers. At least once he won all three races on the card with his only three entries. He bred two Black Type horses from Show Gate, one of which , Every Show, held the mile record at Riccarton until the track was altered. He imported the subsequent leading sire Gatekeeper which he stood on his own Stud, making a number of S.I. breeders very successful, including the Dennis bothers, He was an absolute gentleman who would not have criticised  even one of us, nor our horses. He put his own money up, backed his own product and, incidentally, left several of his riders a substantial handout in his will.

  Yes, we are all entitled to our views from the side, many of which have been aired here, but who can achieve the same hands on success as Gordon Thompson ?  I can’t.......can you ?

 

 

[Ragamuffin]

So agree with you Lynnley, it saddens me when I've read comments about Ole Gordy, he was the kindest, most  generous man with the BEST training record of Wingatui trainers at that time.  Yes he got fined for Show Gate's presentation appearance but it didn't stop her winning.  He left his workers & riders like Michael & Beany very well off, bought a house for 1 worker, after the death of a trainer, housed a mother & son of the most "infamous" whanau when they didn't help out.  Noone at that time could afford to buy their own stallion with own $$ like he did with Gatekeeper.  His Underwood mares were the best around.  His success with Middy, Cobble, Sandy & others as well speak to his success so despite the detrimental comments about ole Gordy, he got the results & they speak for themselves.  His horses were always fed well, mares always had plenty of grass. He & his mum ensured their apprentice jockeys never got too heavy.  He had a great setup that made his millions as a chicken sexer which he was 1 of 2 in NZ.  Say what you like about the man, his results speak louder

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, Ragamuffin said:

So agree with you Lynnley, it saddens me when I've read comments about Ole Gordy, he was the kindest, most  generous man with the BEST training record of Wingatui trainers at that time.  Yes he got fined for Show Gate's presentation appearance but it didn't stop her winning.  He left his workers & riders like Michael & Beany very well off, bought a house for 1 worker, after the death of a trainer, housed a mother & son of the most "infamous" whanau when they didn't help out.  Noone at that time could afford to buy their own stallion with own $$ like he did with Gatekeeper.  His Underwood mares were the best around.  His success with Middy, Cobble, Sandy & others as well speak to his success so despite the detrimental comments about ole Gordy, he got the results & they speak for themselves.  His horses were always fed well, mares always had plenty of grass. He & his mum ensured their apprentice jockeys never got too heavy.  He had a great setup that made his millions as a chicken sexer which he was 1 of 2 in NZ.  Say what you like about the man, his results speak louder

Great post.  I've always found that there is more to some than there appears.  The NZ Racing crowd are quick to bring down their own.  The OZZIES are the opposite.

Recently I experienced someone denigrating a revered and very successful Trotting trainer of many years ago.  Essentially they were extrapolating an anecdote they had heard from a friend's friend and trying to redefine that persons life.

Those that say Showgate may have been better with a different trainer assume that she was worse with the one she had.  You could argue that the tough regime made her tougher.

 

[Ragamuffin]

On 11/10/2021 at 9:21 PM, Reefton said:

It was when she won the first Telegraph I think Pam as I remember from the old racing annuals

When she won the Trentham Stakes she broke the track record and had broken down 800m out.  Broke her sesamoid for the second time!  That was after being beaten a head in Wellington Cup the week before by Good Lord(dual Sydney Cup winner) when Ramage said she would have won but was so wide she didn't see Good Lord on the fence.   And all that of course a coupe of weeks after the Dunedin Gold Cup/Timaru Cup wins in two days

Utterly remarkable horse given the way she was treated.

 

She must have been a good horse to run 2nd the way Chris Ramage rode her,  the way he rode her that day was unbelievable & yet Gordy still stuck by him & didn't give him the drag, coulda put a kid on & she would have p...ed in, reminds one of when Shane Dye rode sitting 3 & 4 wide all the way , thinking the poor horse can still win.  His workers could have cleaned her up raceday if they thought she looked so bad, Gordy always said & I quote" doesn't make her run any faster son. " & in those days a few other trainers did the same presentation wasn't important like it's become today

[Joe Bloggs]

It's called pride Muffin, pride, oh and respect for the animal, I saw her feed bin and so did many others, we're not fools, what that bloke fed that mare was disgusting, and the day he got up me for picking up her fallen water bucket and re-filling it with cool, clean water which she promptly skulled pissed me right off......if he trained now he'd be before stewards quicker than F.....the mare was a freak, as was Vo Rogue who was treated much the same as SG......Vic Rail was eccentric and off the planet,  and yes, Vo wouldn't have run any faster if CSH or Bart trained him......they were 1 in 1000 horses! 

[Chief Stipe]

45 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

he got up me for picking up her fallen water bucket and re-filling it with cool, clean water which she promptly skulled pissed me right off.

What?!  Before a race?  Someone else's horse? If so the Stewards would be "right up ya" nowadays.

[Joe Bloggs]

Be sensible, it was on the Wed morning if I recall, hot day, mare had no water for bloody ages, we had horses down from the NI, it was just what you did back then, help one another out, little did I know the shellacking I was going to cop......

[Ragamuffin]

On 11/21/2021 at 1:42 PM, Joe Bloggs said:

It's called pride Muffin, pride, oh and respect for the animal, I saw her feed bin and so did many others, we're not fools, what that bloke fed that mare was disgusting, and the day he got up me for picking up her fallen water bucket and re-filling it with cool, clean water which she promptly skulled pissed me right off......if he trained now he'd be before stewards quicker than F.....the mare was a freak, as was Vo Rogue who was treated much the same as SG......Vic Rail was eccentric and off the planet,  and yes, Vo wouldn't have run any faster if CSH or Bart trained him......they were 1 in 1000 horses! 

Sincerely hope you're not judging the measure of the man by a common occurrance of  a water bucket, many horses do that.  Know ALL about pride & prejudice.  Unless you were 1 of his workers & not only the day you allude to day you have no knowledge of his operation.  Saw for many yrs what, how much etc Mr T fed & much of the whole operation. since 1960 we knew all of his workers till he passed.  He was very careful with his $$ but not to the detriment of his progeny or people he cared & remembered in his will, had he not they'd got nothing.  Jealousy is an ugly sister & hate follows her everywhere.  Quite a few were envious, not only of his racing achievements but his outpouring to the end for those he respected & cared for

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ragamuffin

[muzenza365]

Food for thought, the only horse i know of the Gorgie sacked was Gates Ajar who had lost all form.

Stan McKay took him over and good success with him,not sure of the number of wins he had , but it was several.

Anyway, I will still stand by my opinion, Show Gate was the best horse i have seen and will take a some horse to change my mind.

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, Ragamuffin said:

Sincerely hope you're not judging the measure of the man by a common occurrance of  a water bucket, many horses do that.  Know ALL about pride & prejudice.  Unless you were 1 of his workers & not only the day you allude to day you have no knowledge of his operation.  Saw for many yrs what, how much etc Mr T fed & much of the whole operation. since 1960 we knew all of his workers till he passed.  He was very careful with his $$ but not to the detriment of his progeny or people he cared & remembered in his will, had he not they'd got nothing.  Jealousy is an ugly sister & hate follows her everywhere.  Quite a few were envious, not only of his racing achievements but his outpouring to the end for those he respected & cared for

No it was not a one off I'm judging him on, it was the aftermath that I remember, the 'others' that were at Riccarton that day and saw and heard, then the boss explaining to me ''Gordon's'' track record, and a few months later a leading jockey who rode the mare attesting to what I had been told........too many witnesses, and if you weren't envious of that mare you had rocks for brains.......I applaud your loyalty Muffin, but you can guild the lily all you like, that feed bin didn't lie, the queue to view when Gordon wasn't there [and that was often] stretched from the Cape to the Bluff........IMO the mare was second only to Sunline and on her day would probably have downed that great mare also.......

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

No it was not a one off I'm judging him on, it was the aftermath that I remember, the 'others' that were at Riccarton that day and saw and heard, then the boss explaining to me ''Gordon's'' track record, and a few months later a leading jockey who rode the mare attesting to what I had been told........too many witnesses, and if you weren't envious of that mare you had rocks for brains.......I applaud your loyalty Muffin, but you can guild the lily all you like, that feed bin didn't lie, the queue to view when Gordon wasn't there [and that was often] stretched from the Cape to the Bluff........IMO the mare was second only to Sunline and on her day would probably have downed that great mare also.......

But Joe your stories are largely anecdotal and apocryphal.

In my opinion only one thing is certain in this industry in NZ and that is that anyone who is successful will be the source of "stories".  The way some are putting the boot into Show Gates trainer you could be excused for thinking the horse didn't need a trainer.

As for the food bin - how do you know how much Show Gate was being fed?  Why she was fed what she was fed?  Or for that matter what worked for her and which may not have worked for other horses?

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

But Joe your stories are largely anecdotal and apocryphal.

In my opinion only one thing is certain in this industry in NZ and that is that anyone who is successful will be the source of "stories".  The way some are putting the boot into Show Gates trainer you could be excused for thinking the horse didn't need a trainer.

As for the food bin - how do you know how much Show Gate was being fed?  Why she was fed what she was fed?  Or for that matter what worked for her and which may not have worked for other horses?

You've obviously not trained a horse, what goes in the bin? You've never heard the quote, ''he's a good feeder''? before pre-mix feeds so many trainers had different recipes, some fed big, some fed small and often, I was very lucky, I was fortunate enough to have been apprenticed to two great trainers in NZ, one an icon, and was foreman for an Icon in Melbourne, I got to see and learn through champions, and for one week in NOV 72 I got to see just what went into the mighty mare's feeder, compared to what we fed it was disgraceful, and as was her nature she'd boot her water bucket to the shithouse every day out in her day yard......do you think Gordon would tie the thing to the fence, or put into a tyre or something......he didn't, and that grand mare would go hours and hours without water........if I can remember back to those days it must have stuck with me....you think? I was 19, not nine.........

[Freda]

You're not the only one who witnessed such practices, two of our owners were visibly upset to see her standing shivering in the pissing cold rain with only a light sheet on, after getting off the ferry.

Everything else was either double rugged or inside in the warm, didn't matter, she was still lengths better than anything we had, but most other trainers showed both respect and compassion to their animals. 

Gordy had an immense knowledge of pedigrees, and no doubt ( as pointed out above ) was generous to a fault to his human contacts...but pretty tough on his horses.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Freda said:

You're not the only one who witnessed such practices, two of our owners were visibly upset to see her standing shivering in the pissing cold rain with only a light sheet on, after getting off the ferry.

Everything else was either double rugged or inside in the warm, didn't matter, she was still lengths better than anything we had, but most other trainers showed both respect and compassion to their animals. 

Gordy had an immense knowledge of pedigrees, and no doubt ( as pointed out above ) was generous to a fault to his human contacts...but pretty tough on his horses.

Perhaps her durability and toughness was a product of how she was trained.

Some would argue that the Gai Waterhouse or Murray Baker "work em as hard as you can" was cruel.

Gordon Thomson must have done something right given Show Gates race record.  Could she have done better if trained differently?  We'll never know.

[Freda]

23 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Perhaps her durability and toughness was a product of how she was trained.

Some would argue that the Gai Waterhouse or Murray Baker "work em as hard as you can" was cruel.

Gordon Thomson must have done something right given Show Gates race record.  Could she have done better if trained differently?  We'll never know.

 

23 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Perhaps her durability and toughness was a product of how she was trained.

Some would argue that the Gai Waterhouse or Murray Baker "work em as hard as you can" was cruel.

Gordon Thomson must have done something right given Show Gates race record.  Could she have done better if trained differently?  We'll never know.

Murray or Gai would never have treated a horse like that....and the discussion hasn't referred to her actual 'training'   i.e. workload.

Only those who were actively involved with her could know that.    And to speculate whether different handling might have achieved more... who knows?